Basic Med ineligible for FAA PROTE training

gkainz

gkainz

Final Approach
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
8,401
Location
Arvada, CO
Display Name
Display name:
Greg Kainz
According to a recent note from Colorado Pilots association, PROTE (Portable Reduced Oxygen Trainer Enclosure) Training is coming to Centennial Airport later this year (around Thanksgiving)


from the note:
--------------------
Altho the information as of May 10, 2018 indicated anyone with Class 1,2 or 3 or BasicMed was eligible, the most recent information is....

IMPORTANT UPDATE: The FAA Surgeon General no longer allows Basic Med pilots to enter the FAA PROTE. All pilots registering must hold current First, Second, or Third Class Medicals. Airman certificates and age will be verified at the door.

I have already contacted the FAA Surgeon General's office to 1) to confirm this new limitation, and 2) please explain why the limitation.
------------------------
 
People without real medicals have no business flying at higher altitudes so there is no need. (18k max basic med, 10k max sport, no limit (with class A wavier) for glider pilots - oops.)
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
People without real medicals have no business flying at higher altitudes so there is no need. (18k max basic med, 10k max sport, no limit (with class A wavier) for glider pilots - oops.)
Click to expand...
Please avoid generalizations....yes, there's a loophole for LSA altitudes...but out here, being limited to 10k limits where LSA can fly.

Oh wait, were you kidding?
 
They excluded BasicMed at Osh. Seems vindictive, will be interested to hear the rationale if you actually get one...
 
A medical opinion on low level hypoxia...it is real and it had read impacts. An inability to do math or blacking out is the last in a long list of warning signs of lower oxygen. Earlier this year I had an extended flight at 8000' - I live at 300' ASL. My oximeter put my oxygen at 89% and I could feel the sluggish in my brain starting. It wasn't incapacitating, but my radio calls were a little sloppy and it took me a little longer to think. There are impacts.

http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/SoaringRx/2016-11-20_OSTIV-hypoxia-low-altitude-3.pdf
 
idahoflier said:
They excluded BasicMed at Osh. Seems vindictive, will be interested to hear the rationale if you actually get one...
Click to expand...
Unless they were inundated with folks wanting to feel woozy, I can't think of any reason to preclude any pilot from taking the training.
 
bflynn said:
A medical opinion on low level hypoxia...it is real and it had read impacts. An inability to do math or blacking out is the last in a long list of warning signs of lower oxygen. Earlier this year I had an extended flight at 8000' - I live at 300' ASL. My oximeter put my oxygen at 89% and I could feel the sluggish in my brain starting. It wasn't incapacitating, but my radio calls were a little sloppy and it took me a little longer to think. There are impacts.

http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/SoaringRx/2016-11-20_OSTIV-hypoxia-low-altitude-3.pdf
Click to expand...
From now on, I am blaming my inability to do math on low level hypoxia. :)
 
Just got off the phone with Head Honcho of AOPA medical. A month ago he and the head of CAMI discussed this and the rationale (from CAMI) is an FAA regulation relating to BasicMed. He didn't have the reg # handy. I'm still trying to track it down - left phone messages & emails with CAMI in OKC.

Stay tuned for the latest in the soap opera.

As a side note, we know General Aviation is very incestuous - I'm a member of multiple local GA organizations, and many of us are flying BasicMed and at this point, we're excluded from the PROTE.
 
My my my.....the latest CAMI brochure on Physiological Training discusses the "the ability to experience hypoxia in a normobaric hypoxia training device that simulates altitude by reducing oxygen percentage wihout reducing atmospheric pressure" (that's the PROTE, right?)

and list the restrictions:

Restrictions. Participation in an altitude chamber flight will not be permitted if the applicant:
  • does not hold a valid class I, II, or III medical certificate
Just got off the phone with CAMI - need to contact the FAA Surgeon General directly (so...why not?) but he thinks the reason is there's a concern the BasicMed people can't safely make it to 25K and the SG decided as of May 2018 no more BasicMed.

Stay tuned.
 
murphey said:
Just got off the phone with CAMI - need to contact the FAA Surgeon General directly (so...why not?) but he thinks the reason is there's a concern the BasicMed people can't safely make it to 25K and the SG decided as of May 2018 no more BasicMed.

Stay tuned.
Click to expand...
Thanks for bulldogging this.
 
Haven't heard from the FAA SG but a bit of digging (I'm doing this instead of prepping for my upper division software project management course later today) is the issue of the high-altitude endorsement 61.31g. It only applies to pressurized aircraft above 25K. But here I make the assumption about the SG's decision, is that the PROTE is a simulator at 25K, and as such BasicMed is limited by reg to 18K. So by Federal Regulation, BasicMed not allowed. But....PROTE is not pressurized, it simulates high altitude by reducing the O2, not by reducing the pressure so 61.31g doesn't apply.

Anyone else see the logic problem?

Personally, I think it's a legal problem. The Lawyers don't want to take the chance that someone with only BasicMed will have a serious health problem in the PROTE. But I'm not about to spend $$$ to get my Class 3 again, just so I can go for a ride. Did the real high altitude chamber many years ago, will have to live with that.
 
bflynn said:
https://www.faasafety.gov/SPANS/event_details.aspx?eid=76620

Event this Saturday lists Basicmed as a viable medical. There is no reason to believe that someone who chooses BasicMed is any less healthier than someone who gets a 3rd class. The standards for flying health are the same.
Click to expand...
Check the date - 2017. The SG made the decision that from May 2018 on, no Basic Med in the PROTE. I didn't get a chance to do the PROTE last year in New Mexico, was really hoping to do it this year.

And yes, it also applies to the real chamber in OKC. Download the latest CAMI brochure.
 
murphey said:
Personally, I think it's a legal problem. The Lawyers don't want to take the chance that someone with only BasicMed will have a serious health problem in the PROTE.
Click to expand...

You beat me to it. This is the first thing I thought.
 
What makes you think a third class is any better prognostic indicator than basic med?

I can save the clown at CAMI a lot of time. There ain't no reg that covers PROTE or altitude training with regard to medicals or otehrwise. He's throwing out red herrings. They might have an internal policy but it doesn't rise to the level of regulation.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Their device. Their rules.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but it's MY FREAKIN' TAX DOLLARS. I expect the FAA to operate in a manner conducive to safety and excluding a substantial amount of the pilot population (especially the population that could really use such instruction) over inane historical bureaucratic bovine excrement isn't reasonable.
 
flyingron said:
Yeah, but it's MY FREAKIN' TAX DOLLARS. I expect the FAA to operate in a manner conducive to safety and excluding a substantial amount of the pilot population (especially the population that could really use such instruction) over inane historical bureaucratic bovine excrement isn't reasonable.
Click to expand...
So, it's not like this is a new thing, eh? They have been excluding particular classes of pilots from this for as long as I can remember.
And, they are my freakin' tax dollars too.
 
I think that the fact that actual FAA medicals are issued by AMEs who are designees of the FAA while your average PCP doing a basic med is not is sufficient cause for the FAA to exclude basic med folks.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
So, it's not like this is a new thing, eh? They have been excluding particular classes of pilots from this for as long as I can remember.
And, they are my freakin' tax dollars too.
Click to expand...
Nope, in the past, anybody who was legal to fly could take the course.
Now they've excluded a substantial amount of the legal to fly population.
 
My only comment is that you might wish to contact the FAA and express (politely, please!) your bafflement that a large section of the GA population is excluded; a population that would definitely benefit from the PROTE opportunity. And also ask what the reasons are for the exclusion.

FAA Federal Air Surgeon
Dr Michael Berry

Email: Michael.Berry-MD@faa.gov

Phone: 202.267.3535
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
When could you get this without any medical (FAA or basic)?
Click to expand...
I didn't say that. Read carefully. It used to be that you could take the course if you were legal to fly. Now you can't if you're basic med.
I suspect the main reason for requiring a medical is to limit it to "currently eligible" pilots rather than any safety reason (since pilot certificates don't expire, but medicals do).
 
flyingron said:
I didn't say that. Read carefully. It used to be that you could take the course if you were legal to fly. Now you can't if you're basic med.
I suspect the main reason for requiring a medical is to limit it to "currently eligible" pilots rather than any safety reason (since pilot certificates don't expire, but medicals do).
Click to expand...
You did say that. You said "anybody who was legal to fly could take the course".
Glider pilots have been legal to fly without a medical since forever.
Other pilots have been legal to fly under the sport pilot rule without a medical since 2004.

Or, is this the "real pilots" have medicals thing?
 
I give up. You win your pedantic little argument. The truth is still that a large class of Private Pilots who were eligible before are no longer eligible.
I've written (yes, politely) to the Air Surgeon asking for them to update the policy in light of basic med. I suspect the intent wasn't to exclude, just that nobody bothered to think about upgrading the eligibility.
 
flyingron said:
Yeah, but it's MY FREAKIN' TAX DOLLARS. I expect the FAA to operate in a manner conducive to safety and excluding a substantial amount of the pilot population (especially the population that could really use such instruction) over inane historical bureaucratic bovine excrement isn't reasonable.
Click to expand...

I am a tax payer too and I do not see an issue prohibiting people who effectively have a a non FAA regulated medical.
 
Clip4 said:
I am a tax payer too and I do not see an issue prohibiting people who effectively have a a non FAA regulated medical.
Click to expand...
I think that BasicMed is highly FAA regulated!
If one wants to make an argument it may be that sport pilots and BM holders never fly that high. A lame argument, for sure, but the only one that I believe is applicable.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
I think that BasicMed is highly FAA regulated!
If one wants to make an argument it may be that sport pilots and BM holders never fly that high. A lame argument, for sure, but the only one that I believe is applicable.
Click to expand...
Fly that high? Well, out here in the time zone that everyone forgets about, I need to be at a minimum of 10.5K to get from the Front Range (east of the Rockies) anywhere west, preferably at least 12.5K.
 
murphey said:
Fly that high? Well, out here in the time zone that everyone forgets about, I need to be at a minimum of 10.5K to get from the Front Range (east of the Rockies) anywhere west, preferably at least 12.5K.
Click to expand...
If you hit "oxygen required" levels you should be able to take the course. And we don't "forget" about y'all ... your that bump we must go over to get to California, right?
 
Kenny Phillips said:
I think that BasicMed is highly FAA regulated!
If one wants to make an argument it may be that sport pilots and BM holders never fly that high. A lame argument, for sure, but the only one that I believe is applicable.
Click to expand...

Basic Med is a product of Congress and not part of the FAA regulatory process.
 
Clip4 said:
Basic Med is a product of Congress and not part of the FAA regulatory process.
Click to expand...

Which leads me to believe this is the FAA giving the middle finger to those of us opting out of their "real" certification.

The FAA and their lawyers that is.
 
I really hope they can fix this. When I was in the military we did a chamber ride early on in flight school. I know what can happen.

Take your average glider pilot with a private certificate working on his FAI Diamond badge. Never held a medical. Show up at a wave camp, Minden NV for example. One day later you are flying at FL 240 solo.

PROTE would probable be a good idea for this excluded group.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top