Barn concrete

I would expect that in Jackson. Things are approached professionally.

In rural Missouri...well...if there even are any inspectors, they probably double as city dog catcher! (Seriously)
 
If you weld bar together here... the inspector will fail the job... :redface:

Same here although I'm only familiar with public works standards, not residential. But that's assuming he has to pull a permit for his barn floor.
 
Is a concrete floor a hard requirement (no pun intended). To me, it sounds like added expense with little positivel benefit. Could you possibly make one side concrete and the rest clay or dirt? The horses would thank you.

It depends on how much time the horses spend in the stall. Clay/dirt floors take heavy maintenance if the horses spend most of their time in their stall, and get really nasty. Being able to wash and have a dry, clean, floor is something else the horses appreciate. Hooves get pretty nasty if kept up on damp clay.
 
It depends on how much time the horses spend in the stall. Clay/dirt floors take heavy maintenance if the horses spend most of their time in their stall, and get really nasty. Being able to wash and have a dry, clean, floor is something else the horses appreciate. Hooves get pretty nasty if kept up on damp clay.

Thorobred horses are usually turned out every day unless the weather is really bad. Horses are never washed in a stall , they are washed down outside, and the stalls are never " washed" . The stalls " dampness" is controlled easily by the straw thrown down on the floor of the stall. The straw is then composted after being removed daily, and fresh straw replacing the old. After composting , the straw is picked up by the mushroom growers in penna. And used in their mushroom growing facility's so wash your mushrooms carefully. If you've ever been in a thorobred facility there are fans which move the air so there is little or no "dampness" even in maryland which is very humid. There are some rubber floors used but I'm not sure how many . Many many are what I've described. The hooves, which are so important , are watched and tended to carefully and they are cleaned often as they pick up a lot of crud just being in the fields.
 
Yeah, people's private barns get a different level of effort and cleaning schedule from professional operations.
Having the pee drain away between the boards in a ventilated gap beneath, and being able to rinse underneath makes keeping things clean a snap.
 
Last edited:
I worked at a thorobred horse farm when young. The stalls had a clay mixture floor, no concrete anywhere. Rebar in a concrete barn floor would be overkill and needless. Wire mesh would be fine unless you plan to park heavy equipment on it, etc.
Thank you for your insight.
 
Don't forget drainage. Stall mats are nice, but don't forget horses pee like, well horses. You're going to be using lots of bedding to soak up puddles and the urine is going to have to run somewhere. Try not to make it out into the aisle. And get the big mats. The little ones, 4'x6', move around a lot, especially on concrete when horses roll and then dig their toes in to get up. You need to screw down. The interlocking ones just suck. With clay you use 14" spikes with big washers welded to the top to stake hem down. To be honest, here's a lot more reasons not to use concrete as a stall floor than there are to use it, but it's your dime.

Don't think pallets are going to save your hay from concrete sweat. You might think about putting a layer of tar paper under the palates too, and be sure there's good air circulation. All manner of critter love to live under there.

And when concrete is wet, it's slippery as heck. have a broom finish put on it. We have hard walkways in our barns, but we went with asphalt. A lot less slippery when wet, especially with steel shod hooves.

Make sure you plan your plumbing and electrical well. Concrete floors make adding waterers, wash stalls and drains after the fact very problematic.
The plan is/was to drain to the outside/back of the stall to keep the aisle dry as possible.

Looks like I need to research clay. Appreciate the knowledge share.
 
In our barn we've done some of the exact things the previous poster said don't. Our stalls are 12X12 so 6 4X6 mats fit perfectly. Just had to do some trimming to fit around some corner posts. Mats definitely don't move around because there's nowhere for them to go.

We elected not to place concrete in the stalls themselves. Used crusher run limestone as a base in the stalls and put the mats directly over this. The crusher run will pack and make a very solid base and the horse pee has somewhere to go although most of it just sits on top of the mats and gets soaked up by the shavings.

We did a fairly smoot finish on the concrete (I'm hoping it becomes a shop someday). Because of this we planned on placing stall mats everywhere a horse might walk.

Wooden pallets under our hay has worked fine. No problems with hay getting moldy.
How deep is your crusher run?
We use pallets on grade now and have lost little due to mold.
 
One caution is using wooden pallets to store hay. First off, they will get termites sooner or later, and second, the wood holds moisture against the bottom row.

Concrete for horses to walk on is always questionable, especially in cold climates. I keep asking myself why one wants concrete under their horses feet? Wood floors aren't terrible if the wood is all pressure treated, but the cost for benefit just isn't there, unless the goal is to have an expensive looking barn setting to draw boarding customers.
We are/were thinking concrete primarily for cleanliness. Understand the concerns about slickness when wet.
 
Over 35 years in construction here...so not blowing smoke out my ass like some.

* 4" thick concrete should be adequate (assuming a strong base mat'l) unless your tractors are pretty big. Then you might consider 5".

* 3,000 PSI concrete is pretty standard in most areas. Going to 3,500 PSI would be beneficial and not cost much.

* expansion joints should be cut at a distance twice the thickness in feet. i.e. If you pour a 4" slab then 8' centers...a 5" slab then 10' centers. But more importantly, they should be cut asap. The same day if it's hot and dry, first thing the following morning if not. If cut too late, the concrete has already started cracking where it wants to. Remember "expansion joint" is a misnomer. Concrete is never larger than its original liquid state. A more accurate description is "contraction joints." Concrete will crack. The key is to get it to crack where you want it to crack and that's at the joints. You're setting up a weak plane by cutting the joint. Oh...and the joint should be cut a minimum depth of 20% the slab thickness...I prefer 25% (i.e. a 1" deep cut in a 4" slab)...residential contractors will want to lightly score it...about a 1/4" deep...a complete waste of time.

* unless you have moisture issues in your substrate (i.e. a low lying area) then I'd advise against vapor barrier. Pouring over vapor barrier means that the bleed water leaving the concrete as it cures cannot exit the bottom and all must exit the top. This can greatly reduce the strength of the concrete and increase the shrinkage cracking because the slump of the top 1/2 of the slab is significantly increased as the bleed water migrates thru it. It can also lead to exaggerated slab curling caused by uneven curing top to bottom. If you don't use a vapor barrier and it's been dry for a few days before you pour, then wet down the gravel substrate so the moisture isn't sucked out of the concrete too quickly. Lightly moisten the gravel, don't soak it. More below in the importance of slow, even curing of the slab.

* rebar is far superior to wire mesh. #4 rebar (1/2" dia.) at 12" to 18" on center each way (OCEW) would be good. The rebar should be placed on concrete chairs or set on small concrete bricks. If you used mesh then heavy mats that are also placed on chairs or bricks is the only way to go. Rolled mesh is worthless. Either way, don't allow the contractor to pull the mesh or rebar with "concrete hooks" during the pour instead of placing it on bricks or chairs. "Pulled" reinforcing will always resettle to the bottom of the concrete and will be of no benefit there. Reinforcing must be in the center 1/3 of the slab to be of any use and the only way to ensure this is by using chairs or bricks. Using fine "chicken wire" mesh like was suggested earlier is laughable. Don't let the contractor use clay bricks...only concrete bricks.

* in addition to rebar or mesh (or in lieu of), you might consider adding "fibermesh" to the concrete mix, though this isn't necessary. Info here: http://fibermesh.com/product/microsynthetic.html I'm not a fan of using only fibermesh, I am a fan of adding it to conventional reinforcing. But there are a lot of slabs out there with only fibermesh that have held up well...

* don't overwork (over trowel) exterior concrete, the more the surface is worked, the weaker it becomes. Screed it off, hit it with a float, minimal trowling to bring a bit of paste to the top, broom it, And walk away. (Though I'm not sure a broom finish is appropriate for a horse barn...that's something that others may be able to address)

* proper curing is essential. Concrete needs to dry out slowly and evenly. A membrane curing compound should be sprayed on, or the slab covered with wet burlap sacks...that are kept wet for a few days. Or simply set a sprinkler up on the slab and keep it wet for a few days...to a week.

* but maybe the most important thing required to produce a strong slab with no cracks is to not pour the concrete too wet. Most residential contractors pour concrete with way too much water in it because it's a LOT easier to work and move and screed off. They'll pour it with an 8" to 10" slump if you let them..."self leveling concrete" as we jokingly refer to it. All this excess water eventually leaves the concrete as it cures...that results in a loss of volume, and excessive shrinkage cracking. The excess water also results in a weaker mix than if it had the proper water/cement ratio. Commercial contractors pour about a 4" slump. A 6" slump is the most I would ever consider allowing. What's a 6" slump? I'm sure YouTube has some explanatory videos...everything's on YouTube these days!

Hope this helps.
A sincere thank you for the education.
 
Is a concrete floor a hard requirement (no pun intended). To me, it sounds like added expense with little positivel benefit. Could you possibly make one side concrete and the rest clay or dirt? The horses would thank you.
Ha! No, was thinking concrete to keep waste cleanup easier. Reading what others have offered it's time to reconsider. Yes, 1/2 and 1/2 would be suitable as well. Just not sure if that small a job would be acceptable from a profit perspective for the person doing the work.
 
Same here although I'm only familiar with public works standards, not residential. But that's assuming he has to pull a permit for his barn floor.
No permit necessary for the Ag work. Not that anyone would be the wiser any way.
 
We are/were thinking concrete primarily for cleanliness. Understand the concerns about slickness when wet.

When your horses are shod, the cement will suffer chipping if not for the clay. it is there solely for the horses safety, and to protect the concrete surface. It will get contaminated with horse Pi$$ and poo then must be cleaned and dispose as required.

Our horses on the farm were work horses Dad had 3 teams that were sharp shod, and they would chew up the cement they walked on, So it was either wooden planks or clay where ever they went in the barns. They wouldn't fall if there was no clay, but my sister's and my riding horses were not sharp shod, and would fall on smooth cement floors. so the clay and planks were there to stop the slippery cement from injuring them.
Guess who's job it was to clean the stalls and feed the horses every day.
 
Speaking of manure, it's the most often overlooked aspect of hobby barns. What are you going to do with it? Are you going to drive the tractor through and pitch right into a spreader? Into a wheelbarrow and dump it into a pile? Who's going to do it, and how easy will it be to get there? If you stockpile and let it rot before spreading ( much better for your ground and horses) , how are you going to load?

Now there's a use for concrete. Dunno how many animals you keep, but a small manure pit or even a pad with a knee wall to push against will make using the loader to scoop poop a whole lot easier. Don't forget to plan for runoff.

And flies. Oh, God, flies. Of course you've planned a tack room. Might want to leave a corner to install an automatic fly spray system, so be sure to install an outlet and maybe an extra circuit. Worth it's weight in gold. You'll thank me later.
 
Last edited:
How deep is your crusher run?
We use pallets on grade now and have lost little due to mold.

I stack on pallets too. The bottom layer always gets a little nasty, no matter what you do. Turning the bottom bales on cut edge helps some. So does throwing a few handfuls of rock salt on the ground as you stack to act as a dessicant. We do about 2,500 small squares a year for the 20 horses on average we keep on the place.
 
Last edited:
Ha! No, was thinking concrete to keep waste cleanup easier. Reading what others have offered it's time to reconsider. Yes, 1/2 and 1/2 would be suitable as well. Just not sure if that small a job would be acceptable from a profit perspective for the person doing the work.

Oh, there'll be work. You'll want a hard surface aisle, outside wash pad or inside wash area with floor drains to hose the horses off after they work, and to hose out feed buckets, tools, and other barn stuff. Just cover the surface with mats so it isn't slippery and as Tom says, is protected. And as I mention above, a manure storage area. The actual stalls, not so much. Rubber mats over vibraplated crusher run works well. Sprinkle a half bag or so of hydrated lime over the stone before you lay the mats. Or packed clay is good, but stone drains the urine that get through the seams between mats away better. Another reason for big mats, fewer seams.

Pelleted softwood is the best bedding. Like stove pellets, but pine. Super absorbent. And the fines get between the mat seams and acts like caulk to keep the urine from seeping through to e stone or clay beneath.
 
Last edited:
I stack on pallets too. The bottom layer always gets a little nasty, no matter what you do. Turning the bottom bales on cut edge helps some. So does throwing a few handfuls of rock salt on the ground as you stack to act as a dessicant. We do about 2,500 small squares a year for the 20 horses on average we keep on the place.


DAMN,,, them are some hungry critters....:yikes::eek::hairraise:
 
Horses sound like a giant pain in the ass compared to planes... :lol:
 
What is the operating cost of a horse per hour ridden (excl cost of capital and depreciation) ?
 
What is the operating cost of a horse per hour ridden (excl cost of capital and depreciation) ?

Like airplanes, some horses never see their owners, while others work 6 hours a week. Figure fixed costs like board, vet care, farrier and the like at our place run about $8,200 a year before you ever throw a leg across. And we're not the high- priced spread in the area. That doesn't include stuff like tack, boots and britches, the big fancy truck and trailer that never get used, etc.

Then, of course, they can go lame for no apparent reason, drop dead on you, get sick or get hurt and have to be put down. At least you can fix an airplane. Horses, they'll tear your heart out.

Still love them though.
 
Last edited:
What is the operating cost of a horse per hour ridden (excl cost of capital and depreciation) ?

It depends on the hangar costs and how big the fleet is. I can feed and keep a 6 horse group cheaper per horse than a solitary horse. Then there is opportunity cost on the land. Even just a mare and a foal on a 15 acre irrigated and fertilized hay field reduced the historically consistent production by 75%. I could have give them hay and feed for 30% of what was lost. The hay lost was worth more than the foal.
 
When your horses are shod, the cement will suffer chipping if not for the clay. it is there solely for the horses safety, and to protect the concrete surface. It will get contaminated with horse Pi$$ and poo then must be cleaned and dispose as required.

Our horses on the farm were work horses Dad had 3 teams that were sharp shod, and they would chew up the cement they walked on, So it was either wooden planks or clay where ever they went in the barns. They wouldn't fall if there was no clay, but my sister's and my riding horses were not sharp shod, and would fall on smooth cement floors. so the clay and planks were there to stop the slippery cement from injuring them.
Guess who's job it was to clean the stalls and feed the horses every day.
Our horses aren't shod. When on trail we use boots but they come off once back in the pasture.
 
Speaking of manure, it's the most often overlooked aspect of hobby barns. What are you going to do with it? Are you going to drive the tractor through and pitch right into a spreader? Into a wheelbarrow and dump it into a pile? Who's going to do it, and how easy will it be to get there? If you stockpile and let it rot before spreading ( much better for your ground and horses) , how are you going to load?

Now there's a use for concrete. Dunno how many animals you keep, but a small manure pit or even a pad with a knee wall to push against will make using the loader to scoop poop a whole lot easier. Don't forget to plan for runoff.

And flies. Oh, God, flies. Of course you've planned a tack room. Might want to leave a corner to install an automatic fly spray system, so be sure to install an outlet and maybe an extra circuit. Worth it's weight in gold. You'll thank me later.
We retain the scat in a remote corner for compost and once dried spread it in the pastures. We'll be keeping a total of 3 horses. They will remain on pasture and use the barn as THEY see fit. Oddly enough we found the best fly control to be Simplify which is an IGR. I'll thank you now :)
 
Oh, there'll be work. You'll want a hard surface aisle, outside wash pad or inside wash area with floor drains to hose the horses off after they work, and to hose out feed buckets, tools, and other barn stuff. Just cover the surface with mats so it isn't slippery and as Tom says, is protected. And as I mention above, a manure storage area. The actual stalls, not so much. Rubber mats over vibraplated crusher run works well. Sprinkle a half bag or so of hydrated lime over the stone before you lay the mats. Or packed clay is good, but stone drains the urine that get through the seams between mats away better. Another reason for big mats, fewer seams.

Pelleted softwood is the best bedding. Like stove pellets, but pine. Super absorbent. And the fines get between the mat seams and acts like caulk to keep the urine from seeping through to e stone or clay beneath.
Excellent, thank you.
 
Like airplanes, some horses never see their owners, while others work 6 hours a week. Figure fixed costs like board, vet care, farrier and the like at our place run about $8,200 a year before you ever throw a leg across. And we're not the high- priced spread in the area. That doesn't include stuff like tack, boots and britches, the big fancy truck and trailer that never get used, etc.

Then, of course, they can go lame for no apparent reason, drop dead on you, get sick or get hurt and have to be put down. At least you can fix an airplane. Horses, they'll tear your heart out.

Still love them though.
Couldn't have said it better.
 
Yep, I did love having horses, nothing smells better. They're fun . Speaking of farriers, I saw this the other day and laughed my ass off.

 
I am not an expert on concrete but happy to pass along what I have had done at my house. My first pour was a R.V. pad and my front patio. It was done with fiber mesh, I believe we poured 30 yards that day, it's been 15 years. I have zero cracks, expansion joints were put in by the finishers. 5 years later I had 40 yards of stamped and colored concrete put in, a hot tub pad and some walkways. Did not use fiber mesh or rebar,, finishers added expansion joints, it has cracks. 2 years later I had 30 more yards poured with color and stamped finish. This time I used fiber mesh, again no cracks in the section.
 
We'll be keeping a total of 3 horses. They will remain on pasture and use the barn as THEY see fit.

You must have QH's. Thoroughbreds would be dead in a week. ;)

Honestly I was envisioning something totally different. If that's the case, why not just go run-in style, put your enclosed side to the weather, line your three stalls plus tack/storage room along that wall, and leave one side, or three quarters of one side if you want enclosed hay storage, open. Less a chance of anybody getting cornered or in other trouble. No need for hard surface at all, just packed blue stone. As a matter of fact, if the horses are going to have access at liberty, I would pointedly not put in hard surface for fear of injury.

They can hurt themselves in a padded stall with a beach ball.
 
Yep, I did love having horses, nothing smells better. They're fun . Speaking of farriers, I saw this the other day and laughed my ass off.


Perfect!
 
You must have QH's. Thoroughbreds would be dead in a week. ;)

Honestly I was envisioning something totally different. If that's the case, why not just go run-in style, put your enclosed side to the weather, line your three stalls plus tack/storage room along that wall, and leave one side, or three quarters of one side if you want enclosed hay storage, open. Less a chance of anybody getting cornered or in other trouble. No need for hard surface at all, just packed blue stone. As a matter of fact, if the horses are going to have access at liberty, I would pointedly not put in hard surface for fear of injury.

They can hurt themselves in a padded stall with a beach ball.
Haflingers, small draft horses. We have one run-in which works find but like the enclosure aspect of a barn in more inclement wx.
Argh, don't get me started on the beach ball or jolly ball routine. :no:
 
Last edited:
Yep, I did love having horses, nothing smells better. They're fun . Speaking of farriers, I saw this the other day and laughed my ass off.

Too true as well as too funny
 
Back
Top