Barn concrete

pilot_dude

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pilot_dude
We are in the process of having a small (36x25) horse barn built to supplement all of the other out buildings. One difference we would like for this barn is to have a cement floor which we will place rubber padding over in the stalls.

In addition to the horses, a couple tractors will be stored as well as square bales of hay. The hay will be on wooden pallets so no worries there.

I have zero concrete experience. What should I ask for in the quotes? Depth? Strength? Expansion joints? Rebar? Screen?
I plan on doing all the grading work and compacting the gravel/sand base.

Thank you in advance.
 
Just use 4" thick, 4,000 psi concrete with wire mesh or a single layer of #4 rebar @12" centers. Should be fine for the floor sections (not the foundation itself.)
 
Just use 4" thick, 4,000 psi concrete with wire mesh or a single layer of #4 rebar @12" centers. Should be fine for the floor sections (not the foundation itself.)
Thank you very much. Is there a benefit to using either mesh or rebar?
 
Thank you very much. Is there a benefit to using either mesh or rebar?

Keeps it from cracking. If you need, and don't currently have, a storm shelter, pouring a rebar room is an option. Having a plate steel door for it makes a good shelter and doubles as a feed room.
 
Keeps it from cracking. If you need, and don't currently have, a storm shelter, pouring a rebar room is an option. Having a plate steel door for it makes a good shelter and doubles as a feed room.
I understand the confusion of my question. Let me restate; which is more beneficial, rebar or mesh? Why?
We have a basement so no worries there.
 
I understand the confusion of my question. Let me restate; which is more beneficial, rebar or mesh? Why?
We have a basement so no worries there.

Both, they serve different masters of scale and destructive forces. I tend to use rebar, large 4-6" mesh, and a finer chicken wire sized mesh, but I tend to build with overkill. I also pour in the evening so it's easier to keep the slab cool during the hottest part of the curing.
 
Both, they serve different masters of scale and destructive forces. I tend to use rebar, large 4-6" mesh, and a finer chicken wire sized mesh, but I tend to build with overkill. I also pour in the evening so it's easier to keep the slab cool during the hottest part of the curing.
Understand. That doesn't answer my question but thanks for the input.
 
is a vapor barrier in any way helpful, in a barn?

It depends where you are. In N TX where I was, if you were trying to design with dust control in mind, it was pretty much a requirement. With an open sided barn though, I don't see the point. Unless you're talking for the slab, the I still see none.
 
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I understand the confusion of my question. Let me restate; which is more beneficial, rebar or mesh? Why?
We have a basement so no worries there.

Mesh is cheaper and easier to place, but it won't support as much load as rebar. Rebar is probably overkill for your use.
 
We are in the process of having a small (36x25) horse barn built to supplement all of the other out buildings. One difference we would like for this barn is to have a cement floor which we will place rubber padding over in the stalls.

In addition to the horses, a couple tractors will be stored as well as square bales of hay. The hay will be on wooden pallets so no worries there.

I have zero concrete experience. What should I ask for in the quotes? Depth? Strength? Expansion joints? Rebar? Screen?
I plan on doing all the grading work and compacting the gravel/sand base.

Thank you in advance.
Go with the building code for your area. But seal it very well, the horse doo doo is very acidic and will etch the cement quickly. And be certain the floor is not slippery, when I was a kid on the farm we had horses on a cement floor, one fell and broke a hip.
 
is a vapor barrier in any way helpful, in a barn?
Under the cement, yes in wet areas that are not well drained. The hangar floor slab at OKH has no water barrier and in the winter we had 1" of standing water on the slab.

Cement is not water proof. Seal it on top to protect it from etching from above, and place a water barrier under it in areas that are not well drained.

Here is our new shop floor, which is a monolific solid pour. sealed with Hard Deck. (™)
 

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Under the cement, yes in wet areas that are not well drained. The hangar floor slab at OKH has no water barrier and in the winter we had 1" of standing water on the slab.

Cement is not water proof. Seal it on top to protect it from etching from above, and place a water barrier under it in areas that are not well drained.

Here is our new shop floor, which is a monolific solid pour. sealed with Hard Deck. (™)

The problem barriers cause is buoyancy can form. You're better off making sure the floor will drain if it doesn't need to stay dry.
 
Go with the building code for your area. But seal it very well, the horse doo doo is very acidic and will etch the cement quickly. And be certain the floor is not slippery, when I was a kid on the farm we had horses on a cement floor, one fell and broke a hip.
Excellent points, thank you.
 
I worked at a thorobred horse farm when young. The stalls had a clay mixture floor, no concrete anywhere. Rebar in a concrete barn floor would be overkill and needless. Wire mesh would be fine unless you plan to park heavy equipment on it, etc.
 
I worked at a thorobred horse farm when young. The stalls had a clay mixture floor, no concrete anywhere.
Horse barns usually have a 3-5" thick layer of clay for a cushion for the horse's hoof. they change it about every 6 months.
 
The problem barriers cause is buoyancy can form. You're better off making sure the floor will drain if it doesn't need to stay dry.

When we get enough water to float cement, we are all in trouble.
 
Don't forget drainage. Stall mats are nice, but don't forget horses pee like, well horses. You're going to be using lots of bedding to soak up puddles and the urine is going to have to run somewhere. Try not to make it out into the aisle. And get the big mats. The little ones, 4'x6', move around a lot, especially on concrete when horses roll and then dig their toes in to get up. You need to screw down. The interlocking ones just suck. With clay you use 14" spikes with big washers welded to the top to stake hem down. To be honest, here's a lot more reasons not to use concrete as a stall floor than there are to use it, but it's your dime.

Don't think pallets are going to save your hay from concrete sweat. You might think about putting a layer of tar paper under the palates too, and be sure there's good air circulation. All manner of critter love to live under there.

And when concrete is wet, it's slippery as heck. have a broom finish put on it. We have hard walkways in our barns, but we went with asphalt. A lot less slippery when wet, especially with steel shod hooves.

Make sure you plan your plumbing and electrical well. Concrete floors make adding waterers, wash stalls and drains after the fact very problematic.
 
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In our barn we've done some of the exact things the previous poster said don't. Our stalls are 12X12 so 6 4X6 mats fit perfectly. Just had to do some trimming to fit around some corner posts. Mats definitely don't move around because there's nowhere for them to go.

We elected not to place concrete in the stalls themselves. Used crusher run limestone as a base in the stalls and put the mats directly over this. The crusher run will pack and make a very solid base and the horse pee has somewhere to go although most of it just sits on top of the mats and gets soaked up by the shavings.

We did a fairly smoot finish on the concrete (I'm hoping it becomes a shop someday). Because of this we planned on placing stall mats everywhere a horse might walk.

Wooden pallets under our hay has worked fine. No problems with hay getting moldy.
 
One caution is using wooden pallets to store hay. First off, they will get termites sooner or later, and second, the wood holds moisture against the bottom row.

Concrete for horses to walk on is always questionable, especially in cold climates. I keep asking myself why one wants concrete under their horses feet? Wood floors aren't terrible if the wood is all pressure treated, but the cost for benefit just isn't there, unless the goal is to have an expensive looking barn setting to draw boarding customers.
 
What works best for stalls is a raised wooden floor over slick concrete. Allows drainage and simple flushing for cleaning, then have it dump into a French Drain. Raised wood over gravel is #2.
 
Over 35 years in construction here...so not blowing smoke out my ass like some.

* 4" thick concrete should be adequate (assuming a strong base mat'l) unless your tractors are pretty big. Then you might consider 5".

* 3,000 PSI concrete is pretty standard in most areas. Going to 3,500 PSI would be beneficial and not cost much.

* expansion joints should be cut at a distance twice the thickness in feet. i.e. If you pour a 4" slab then 8' centers...a 5" slab then 10' centers. But more importantly, they should be cut asap. The same day if it's hot and dry, first thing the following morning if not. If cut too late, the concrete has already started cracking where it wants to. Remember "expansion joint" is a misnomer. Concrete is never larger than its original liquid state. A more accurate description is "contraction joints." Concrete will crack. The key is to get it to crack where you want it to crack and that's at the joints. You're setting up a weak plane by cutting the joint. Oh...and the joint should be cut a minimum depth of 20% the slab thickness...I prefer 25% (i.e. a 1" deep cut in a 4" slab)...residential contractors will want to lightly score it...about a 1/4" deep...a complete waste of time.

* unless you have moisture issues in your substrate (i.e. a low lying area) then I'd advise against vapor barrier. Pouring over vapor barrier means that the bleed water leaving the concrete as it cures cannot exit the bottom and all must exit the top. This can greatly reduce the strength of the concrete and increase the shrinkage cracking because the slump of the top 1/2 of the slab is significantly increased as the bleed water migrates thru it. It can also lead to exaggerated slab curling caused by uneven curing top to bottom. If you don't use a vapor barrier and it's been dry for a few days before you pour, then wet down the gravel substrate so the moisture isn't sucked out of the concrete too quickly. Lightly moisten the gravel, don't soak it. More below in the importance of slow, even curing of the slab.

* rebar is far superior to wire mesh. #4 rebar (1/2" dia.) at 12" to 18" on center each way (OCEW) would be good. The rebar should be placed on concrete chairs or set on small concrete bricks. If you used mesh then heavy mats that are also placed on chairs or bricks is the only way to go. Rolled mesh is worthless. Either way, don't allow the contractor to pull the mesh or rebar with "concrete hooks" during the pour instead of placing it on bricks or chairs. "Pulled" reinforcing will always resettle to the bottom of the concrete and will be of no benefit there. Reinforcing must be in the center 1/3 of the slab to be of any use and the only way to ensure this is by using chairs or bricks. Using fine "chicken wire" mesh like was suggested earlier is laughable. Don't let the contractor use clay bricks...only concrete bricks.

* in addition to rebar or mesh (or in lieu of), you might consider adding "fibermesh" to the concrete mix, though this isn't necessary. Info here: http://fibermesh.com/product/microsynthetic.html I'm not a fan of using only fibermesh, I am a fan of adding it to conventional reinforcing. But there are a lot of slabs out there with only fibermesh that have held up well...

* don't overwork (over trowel) exterior concrete, the more the surface is worked, the weaker it becomes. Screed it off, hit it with a float, minimal trowling to bring a bit of paste to the top, broom it, And walk away. (Though I'm not sure a broom finish is appropriate for a horse barn...that's something that others may be able to address)

* proper curing is essential. Concrete needs to dry out slowly and evenly. A membrane curing compound should be sprayed on, or the slab covered with wet burlap sacks...that are kept wet for a few days. Or simply set a sprinkler up on the slab and keep it wet for a few days...to a week.

* but maybe the most important thing required to produce a strong slab with no cracks is to not pour the concrete too wet. Most residential contractors pour concrete with way too much water in it because it's a LOT easier to work and move and screed off. They'll pour it with an 8" to 10" slump if you let them..."self leveling concrete" as we jokingly refer to it. All this excess water eventually leaves the concrete as it cures...that results in a loss of volume, and excessive shrinkage cracking. The excess water also results in a weaker mix than if it had the proper water/cement ratio. Commercial contractors pour about a 4" slump. A 6" slump is the most I would ever consider allowing. What's a 6" slump? I'm sure YouTube has some explanatory videos...everything's on YouTube these days!

Hope this helps.
 
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Under the cement, yes in wet areas that are not well drained. The hangar floor slab at OKH has no water barrier and in the winter we had 1" of standing water on the slab.

I think you had far bigger problems than a vapor barrier could solve.

If you like cracked concrete, yes. Otherwise leave it off.

Exactly!

In N TX where I was, if you were trying to design with dust control in mind, it was pretty much a requirement.

What? A vapor barrier used to control dust...that's an interesting concept.
 
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I think you had far bigger problems than a vapor barrier could solve.

This is true, the slab was poured 4" in a wet land, with no drainage. there wasn't a "T" with out a crack. and the last time I was in one, the wood was rotted off 6" up and the hangar was settling onto the hangar doors.

That hangar is the best bad example anywhere.
 
A bit more on welded wire mesh (WWM).

For most typical pours, wire mesh is a grid 6"x6" square. 4" x 4" is also available but I've never seen it spec'ed by an engineer. The cheap stuff to stay away from is 10 gauge wire that comes in rolls (but it does make great tomato cages). The better stuff and comes in rigid mats is 6 gauge wire.

They are designated as follows:

6 gauge:

Old designation 6x6-6/6, new designation: 6x6-W2.9/2.9

10 gauge:

Old designation 6x6-10/10, new designation: 6x6-W1.4/1.4
 
I'm a rebar man. I think it's old school. Never tried mesh but it sounds like it works if done right. Rebar always works. I'm putting in a slab next month in CO and setting it right on the ground with no underlayments on hard soil. It's got a 4deg pitch so not worried about standing water.

I specced 3500PSI with pea gravel, I just like that better than the big rock, and I have always felt it provides a bit easier working mix for amateurs like me.

So far, I've prolly done around 60 yards in various projects, all pretty basic so I'm no pro but I use what seems to be well proven even if it costs a bit more. The heaviest thing on my slab will be a 1/2 ton truck or maybe a Suburban.
 
The other thing about rebar is that typically contractors like to tack weld it together. Welding does cause it to lose strength though, and most public works specs call for the bars to be wire tied and not welded. Not a big deal either way for the Grade 40 (low strength, 40 ksi yield strength) bars you would be using though.
 
Horse barns usually have a 3-5" thick layer of clay for a cushion for the horse's hoof. they change it about every 6 months.

Yes, we know why clay is used and we also know they never changed it due to the fact that the floor was also always covered with straw. The straw soaks up the urine and makes all the waste much easier to fork up and throw out. ( wrong yet again!)
 
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Yes, we know why clay is used

Apparently not.

This old farm kid raised Morgan horses while I lived on the farm, and know why we did change the clay layer every spring and fall.
 
The other thing about rebar is that typically contractors like to tack weld it together. Welding does cause it to lose strength though, and most public works specs call for the bars to be wire tied and not welded. Not a big deal either way for the Grade 40 (low strength, 40 ksi yield strength) bars you would be using though.

If you weld bar together here... the inspector will fail the job... :redface:
 
We lace or stitch the rebar in a weave. Sometimes the shape won't work to weave it but for big flat pours it's not hard, and keeps things together without welding.
 
We are in the process of having a small (36x25) horse barn built to supplement all of the other out buildings. One difference we would like for this barn is to have a cement floor which we will place rubber padding over in the stalls.

In addition to the horses, a couple tractors will be stored as well as square bales of hay. The hay will be on wooden pallets so no worries there.

I have zero concrete experience. What should I ask for in the quotes? Depth? Strength? Expansion joints? Rebar? Screen?
I plan on doing all the grading work and compacting the gravel/sand base.

Thank you in advance.
Is a concrete floor a hard requirement (no pun intended). To me, it sounds like added expense with little positivel benefit. Could you possibly make one side concrete and the rest clay or dirt? The horses would thank you.
 
If you plan to paint any of the floor then use a vapor barrier.
 
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