Aviation Safety

Jay Honeck

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Jay Honeck
Having been recently subjected to all sorts of silly name calling, up to and including being accused of being "unsafe", I thought I would start a nice, noncontroversial Thanksgiving holiday subject like "safety". :rolleyes:

In all seriousness, though, if you cut through all the interpersonal middle school crap, "safety" was at the root of the controversy I stirred up by discussing zoom climbs and other, more aggressive flight regimes. Basically, the problem can be condensed down to this: What is "safe enough" in aviation? It's an interesting topic that I (and many others) have devoted countless hours to studying, so let's get the ball rolling, shall we?

The problem with aviation safety is that the very desire that has driven us to fly is probably the single most dangerous trait a human can possess.

It is this paradox that keeps GA in a constant state of tension. We are all adventurers at heart, but even within our little group there are those who never, ever leave the pattern, and those who routinely launch on transcontinental VFR flights. There are also those who never bank more than 30 degrees, and those who routinely fly aerobatics.

All call themselves pilots, and all claim to be "safe". And, relatively speaking, they are -- but clearly there are different levels of risk involved.

As I've progressed through my aviation life, I've moved freely up and down this risk spectrum. Example: We still don't fly at night, simply because of the added risks. Yet (as y'all know) we've recently added aerobatics to our repertoire. To many, this would seem a paradox, but it makes perfect sense for Mary and me.

Why? If you cut through all the BS, at the root our thinking can be summed up like this:

1. The kids are grown.
2. Our genetic responsibilities on this planet are therefore complete.
3. We're still healthy enough to do it.
4. Aerobatics are fun.

Thus, our risk assessment concluded with "Let's sell the family station wagon and buy a Miata!". Or, in this case, an RV-8A. And it was the right choice for us.

Each pilot assesses their risks before every flight. Some cross that very fuzzy line and we end up reading about them. From those NTSB reports that we all morbidly pore over, we try to learn how not to cross that same line.

The trouble is, that line moves on every flight. So, the best we can do is set minimums, guidelines, and rules of thumb, and always try to err on the side of caution.

Just to illustrate, even though Mary and I have flown together for two decades, our comfort with risk is still quite different. She's toned me down some (and probably kept me alive) and I've amped her up some (probably causing a gray hair or two), but even though we fly together all the time, we are still different.

If even we aren't in complete agreement on what constitutes acceptable risk, there is little hope of establishing an industry wide norm that will make general aviation "safe". But that won't stop us from trying -- or from having it imposed on us from above.

What say the group? What is "safe"? Are you safe enough? Are you comfortable with letting pilots decide for themselves, or should the government set and enforce more safety rules?

Let's try to keep it civil -- and have a great Turkey Day! :D

--
Jay Honeck
Port Aransas, TX
Van's RV-8A N14EG
http://www.AmeliasLanding.com
(2013 was our 31st consecutive year at OSH!)
 
Jay,

I did really like your video of the wing mounted backward view camera. Very nice.

"Safety" is relative. There are generally accepted minumums, like not driving 90mph when the school bus in front of you is unloading, or zoom climbs to TPA :)D).

After that, it becomes risk management. Weigh the risk/reward - is it fun? Will you learn something? Will it make you a better pilot? What if something goes wrong? What's worst case? What's most likely? What is your plan?

I think a lot of "safe" is - "Have I considered all the pros and cons and made an informed decision?" It may take a lot of spontaneity out of flying, or life, though. The alternative is, "I wonder what happens if I do this?" without considering the consequences. And that's where our individual risk tolerances come into play.

And Happy Thanksgiving wishes to you, Mary, and the rest of your family.
 
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Great post Jay, and Happy Thanksgiving to you, Mary.

Each of us has to decide the level of safety we are comfortable with. The problem becomes when someone tries to tell someone else they are not being safe. ;)
 
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Great post Jay, and Happy Thanksgiving to you, Mary.

Each of us has to decide the level of safety we are comfortable with. The problem becomes when someone tried to tell someone else they aren't bound by the laws pf physics.

FTFY.
 
<searching interwebs for dead horse animated gif>
 
Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours. Safety is a personal choice. What one considers to be safe ,may not be realistic for another pilot. We all set are own minimums and flying styles. Have fun.
 
Jay, you were called out because you were wrong, safety didn't have anything to do with it.
 
Jay, you were called out because you were wrong, safety didn't have anything to do with it.

And I admitted I was wrong. That's called "learning", and it's fun!
:yes:
 
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A couple observations:

People that I thought were destined for an NTSB report often didn't end up that way.

An airplanes envelope is often larger than the pilots.

The bigger the pilots envelope - the harder it is to end up outside it.
 
Jay,

I did really like your video of the wing mounted backward view camera. Very nice.

"Safety" is relative. There are generally accepted minumums, like not driving 90mph when the school bus in front of you is unloading, or zoom climbs to TPA :)D).

After that, it becomes risk management. Weigh the risk/reward - is it fun? Will you learn something? Will it make you a better pilot? What if something goes wrong? What's worst case? What's most likely? What is your plan?

I think a lot of "safe" is - "Have I considered all the pros and cons and made an informed decision?" It may take a lot of spontaneity out of flying, or life, though. The alternative is, "I wonder what happens if I do this?" without considering the consequences. And that's where our individual risk tolerances come into play.

And Happy Thanksgiving wishes to you, Mary, and the rest of your family.

The aft facing camera video is surely a different perspective! I've received a lot of comments on that one, simply because its a view no one -- not even those of who fly regularly -- ever sees.

WRT to "safety", an aviation acquaintance said something earlier today that really sparked my interest in starting this topic. I quote:

"More so than anything else I know, flying airplanes represents a stark inner conflict between an innate willingness to assume great risk, and a fixation on ensuring that each flight is boringly safe."

Boy, doesn't that just sum it up perfectly?

(Edit: Sorry for the double signature thing. Apparently my Tapatalk signature doesn't supercede the POA signature, and you end up with BOTH of them. Goofy.)
 
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<searching interwebs for dead horse animated gif>

After 110 years, every aviation topic has probably been beaten to death -- but "safety" is always relative and a personal choice, which makes it endlessly debatable.
 
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After 110 years, every aviation topic has probably been beaten to death -- but "safety" is always relative and a personal choice, which makes it endlessly debatable.

Except it's only a personal choice if it affects only you.

Quite a lot in aviation doesn't qualify, particularly with passengers or passers-by who may not understand the risks or even have a choice in the matter. That's why aerobatics at 100 AGL over a crowded city is not a personal choice. Neither is blasting through IMC in controlled airspace without a clearance.
 
If I am not scaring myself just at least a slight bit, I am not safe since being complacent and feeling "safe" generally leads to my doing something stupid. :D

Cheers
 
Yet (as y'all know) we've recently added aerobatics to our repertoire. To many, this would seem a paradox, but it makes perfect sense for Mary and me.

Unless you're screwing around on the deck, I hardly think the average RVer pulling 3G and flopping through barrel rolls and egg-shaped loops is measurably adding to their exposure to risk...unless you're teaching yourself from the very beginning.
 
To put this discussion into perspective, I just watched a documentary on these wing-suited BASE jumpers who fly through crevasses (check out Birdmen: the original dream of flight on Hulu, Netflix, etc. it's pretty amazing) and it was interesting to hear them talk about safety. In many ways, they obsess the way we do about safety, if not moreso. In their sport, increasing one's level of safety means going from a 1:4 chance of death to 1:5. That's a pretty substantial improvement.

It comes down to risk versus reward. If something is going to be that risky there better be a decent payoff. There's a ****load of adrenilin rush to be had from flying 120mpg at 10AGL on a 2:1 glide ratio over descending terrain.

Conversely, if the risk to Jay and others outweigh the reward for doing aerobatics zoom climbs, don't do it. But if it isn't and it's legal, go for it.

We must accept two things though: 1) that not all of us have the same risk tolerance, and 2) not all of us are good at evaluating risk.
 
WRT to "safety", an aviation acquaintance said something earlier today that really sparked my interest in starting this topic. I quote:

"More so than anything else I know, flying airplanes represents a stark inner conflict between an innate willingness to assume great risk, and a fixation on ensuring that each flight is boringly safe."

Boy, doesn't that just sum it up perfectly?

--
Jay Honeck
Port Aransas, TX
Van's RV-8A N14EG
http://www.AmeliasLanding.com
(2013 was our 31st consecutive year at OSH!)

His last name Watson? I may know him.
 
That's right Iceman I am dangerous. My personal philosophy is to be competent, arrogant, situationally and intentionally reckless, while being pain averse. That old bold pilot line is false just an ego bandaid for dork pilots who are the truly dangerous.
 
I don't want to be the safest, best-preserved corpse in the graveyard.

-Rich
 
I might point out that safety is only worth two points.
 
About all we can do is minimize the risk in whatever activity we are engaged in, including flying. Most things we do have some level of risk, flying maybe more than others. My personal philosophy is that an individual is completely responsible for his or her own safety, and as far as I am concerned, can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't impact the safety of others unnecessarily. It is called freedom.
 
I don't want to be the safest, best-preserved corpse in the graveyard.

-Rich

And I certainly don't want to be in a diaper in an old folks home watching Vanna White turn letters. "Life is a gift to be lived to the fullest". You can put that on my head stone, but I'm not going to have one. :lol:
 
And I certainly don't want to be in a diaper in an old folks home watching Vanna White turn letters. "Life is a gift to be lived to the fullest". You can put that on my head stone, but I'm not going to have one. :lol:

She doesn't turn letters anymore. Why her job still exists, I don't know. Probably the Union :rofl:
 
"More so than anything else I know, flying airplanes represents a stark inner conflict between an innate willingness to assume great risk, and a fixation on ensuring that each flight is boringly safe."

Boy, doesn't that just sum it up perfectly?

-


This has nothing to do with safety. And, flying isn't that unique. There are plenty of other activities that require far greater risk than flying an RV and provide far more satisfaction and reward.

Perhaps for some flying an RV and doing rolls is the ultimate adventure in life. For those, life has passed them by.
 
And I certainly don't want to be in a diaper in an old folks home watching Vanna White turn letters. "Life is a gift to be lived to the fullest". You can put that on my head stone, but I'm not going to have one. :lol:

I agree. My funeral plans involve someone taking my corpse up for a ride over the ocean in a biplane, flying more than 50 miles offshore, and inverting.

We don't have all the legal details worked out yet, but it seems that it's legal provided that the body is weighted, the drop is done at least 50 miles out, and someone authorized to sign the interment certificate is present as a witness. So if the pilot is also an ordained preacher, a funeral director, or someone else empowered to sign the form, we're golden. Otherwise, a second plane will be needed.

I'd actually rather the drop be done from a trike, but most trikes are difficult or impossible to fly inverted, and the wing would be in the way in any case. Cremation is also out of the question. Fish have to eat, too.

-Rich
 
I agree. My funeral plans involve someone taking my corpse up for a ride over the ocean in a biplane, flying more than 50 miles offshore, and inverting.

We don't have all the legal details worked out yet, but it seems that it's legal provided that the body is weighted, the drop is done at least 50 miles out, and someone authorized to sign the interment certificate is present as a witness. So if the pilot is also an ordained preacher, a funeral director, or someone else empowered to sign the form, we're golden. Otherwise, a second plane will be needed.

I'd actually rather the drop be done from a trike, but most trikes are difficult or impossible to fly inverted, and the wing would be in the way in any case. Cremation is also out of the question. Fish have to eat, too.

-Rich

Having served these United States in the armed forces during the Viet Nam War Era I am entitled to a burial at sea compliments of a USN Navy war ship. I fully intend to utilized that benefit bestowed upon my remains.:D.
 
Great thread....

As the great philosopher Jimmy Buffett says.... I'd rather die while I'm living than live while I'm dead....

As an absolute statement, flying (or life in general) is not "safe"

I agree, it's about safe enough, and people have different levels of comfort with risk.

Why just yesterday I climbed a ladder without a helmet or rope in direct violation of the instructions in the safety manual that came with it. I took the risk for no greater cause than to get the leaves out of my gutter. For me, the reward (not having to pay someone $95) was worth the risk. It's not that I didn't know the risk, just that for me, the risk/benefit ratio was acceptable.

In the military I did HALO jumps in IMC. Not "safe" by any rational measure, but the mission (reward) was worth the risk. And although it's "safer" in the civilian world (better equipment) I'd not do it since the reward is not worth it. To me, IMO.

I have friends that won't fly small planes period. To them, the risk does not justify the reward.

I have pilot friends that won't fly single engine IFR. To them, the risk does not justify the reward.

I respect their decisions, it's their call and their risk tolerance.

I love freedom.

Happy Thanksgiving. I'm very thankful to live in a country where (mostly) we are free to live life to the fullest.
 
One possible definition of "safe" is: no risk, or no possibility of injury or death.

But that's not a particularly useful definition, because it is not possible to eliminate all risk.

So, the definition I'm fond of is: Safe is acceptable level of risk.

The trick is knowing the risks and knowing how they are mitigated.
 
I agree. My funeral plans involve someone taking my corpse up for a ride over the ocean in a biplane, flying more than 50 miles offshore, and inverting.

We don't have all the legal details worked out yet, but it seems that it's legal provided that the body is weighted, the drop is done at least 50 miles out, and someone authorized to sign the interment certificate is present as a witness. So if the pilot is also an ordained preacher, a funeral director, or someone else empowered to sign the form, we're golden. Otherwise, a second plane will be needed.

I'd actually rather the drop be done from a trike, but most trikes are difficult or impossible to fly inverted, and the wing would be in the way in any case. Cremation is also out of the question. Fish have to eat, too.

-Rich

We have a semi-regular guest at our island hotel who does EXACTLY what you are describing -- but from a boat.

The requirements are quite rigorous, and the government has only licensed a tiny handful of funeral directors who can do burials at sea. But it's pretty popular with the guys who devote their lives to the ocean.

Personally, I'm going to be cremated and sprinkled around my favorite place in the world, the North 40 at Wittman Field in Oshkosh.
 
One possible definition of "safe" is: no risk, or no possibility of injury or death.

But that's not a particularly useful definition, because it is not possible to eliminate all risk.

So, the definition I'm fond of is: Safe is acceptable level of risk.

The trick is knowing the risks and knowing how they are mitigated.

This is the definition I use as well, but our society continues to turn the screws on people who believe as we believe.

More and more, our government is defining an acceptable level of risk by enacting laws and regulations that have allowed lawyers and plaintiffs to sue companies to death for infractions that, in years gone by, would have been shrugged off. This covers everything from ladders to swimming pools and airplanes. (Ever wonder what happened to diving boards? Gosh, they were fun.)

WRT aviation, you can make flying safer by adhering to three simple rules:

1. Don't fly with known mechanical issues -- and be fanatical about maintenance.

2. Don't fly without enough gas.

3. Don't fly into bad weather.

Eliminate those three things, and you eliminate a HUGE number of aviation "accidents". Beyond these actions, the return-on-investment starts to become smaller and smaller.

I suppose we could try to come up with numerical values for certain flight behaviors? Something like this:

I choose not to fly at night. +1 for safety.
I choose to fly aerobatics. -1 for safety.
Etc.

Assign values, tally up a score, and see where you stand? We might need an actuary to make the numbers meaningful.

Some say "just use common sense", but, as we've seen, there is no universally accepted definition of "acceptable risk". This makes assumptions about what sort of sense is "common" impossible.

It's a fascinating topic, with no hard and fast answers, and endless possibilities for debate. The best one can hope for is many flights like today's flight -- it was an absolutely gorgeous day here on the coast:

1471387_608003139235584_653852438_n.jpg
 
Welcome back, Jay. Happy Thanksgiving to you and Mary.

Thanks! Right back atcha.

I won't be here for long. I've got the Stearman Room torn up, and the builders break ground on our new addition next week! This is just a two-day lull for me, truly the calm before the storm.
 
Anyone wishing to explore the depths of "risk management" should do a search of the Red Board using those key words. Interesting thread fueled by D. Bader comes to mind.

Oh yeah, Happy Thanksgiving, PoA, wherever you all may be!
 
I think what's interesting to me is that safety, in general, seems to be somewhat of a moving target. When I was in my 20's with no girlfriend and riding an R1 around, my sense of safety/risk-tolerance seemed different than it is today. Now that I'm older and have a beautiful wife and child, great job, family and a new home (toot toot), it feels like I have more to lose. Here's the kicker though... Being reckless while I was young would have actually had me losing more than I would today, if something would have happened. Meaning I would have been robbing myself of the experience of falling in love with my wife and having a baby, owning a plane and having a successful career, etc...
 
WRT aviation, you can make flying safer by adhering to three simple rules:

1. Don't fly with known mechanical issues -- and be fanatical about maintenance.

2. Don't fly without enough gas.

3. Don't fly into bad weather.

You forgot the fourth rule - comply with FARs. That's what really keeps us safe.

Can you imagine the carnage that could result if a sport pilot allowed a passenger to wear a "view limiting device"? Truly a catastrophe of biblical proportions!

As we hear so often - the FARs are written in blood!

I make a special point to avoid blatant violations of significant FARs when I can.

I think what's interesting to me is that safety, in general, seems to be somewhat of a moving target. When I was in my 20's
Indeed.

I used to think nothing of working on the foredeck of a sailboat in the middle of the night during a storm hanging on by nothing more than about an inch or two of toe rail and lifelines with more than enough room to slide under. I still go up there, but now I wear a tether and an inflatable PFD. Geezer.
 
Anyone wishing to explore the depths of "risk management" should do a search of the Red Board using those key words. Interesting thread fueled by D."my way is the only way" Bader comes to mind.

Oh yeah, Happy Thanksgiving, PoA, wherever you all may be!

FTFY...
 
I think what's interesting to me is that safety, in general, seems to be somewhat of a moving target. When I was in my 20's with no girlfriend and riding an R1 around, my sense of safety/risk-tolerance seemed different than it is today. Now that I'm older and have a beautiful wife and child, great job, family and a new home (toot toot), it feels like I have more to lose. Here's the kicker though... Being reckless while I was young would have actually had me losing more than I would today, if something would have happened. Meaning I would have been robbing myself of the experience of falling in love with my wife and having a baby, owning a plane and having a successful career, etc...

That's what you call "wisdom with age". :)
 
You forgot the fourth rule - comply with FARs. That's what really keeps us safe.

Can you imagine the carnage that could result if a sport pilot allowed a passenger to wear a "view limiting device"? Truly a catastrophe of biblical proportions!

Although I'll be the first one to argue about government rules, most FARs make sense. The only one I probably ever flirt with is the cloud clearance rule(s), mostly because I quite honestly suck at telling how far away I am from THAT cloud. (That's probably another thread. After 20 years of flying, I'm still not very good at judging cloud size/distance while flying, even after expending significant time/effort trying to improve. Mary's not any better than me, so clearly there's some trick we're missing. :dunno:)

Is there really an FAR that forbids the passenger of a Sport Pilot-flown plane from wearing foggles?
 
We must accept two things though: 1) that not all of us have the same risk tolerance, and 2) not all of us are good at evaluating risk.

Another interesting point: Is risk truly quantifiable or are there variables you can't account for?
 
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