Aviation Mx Fantasy vs. Reality

timwinters

timwinters

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So,

as was related in an earlier thread (regarding flap track wear) I try to do one upgrade each year at annual and this year I decided to reskin the plane's flaps.

Here's the budget I put together:

Material (McFarlane skins and trailing edge stiffener) $900
Reskin labor $800
Shipping $300
R&R and Paint $500

Total $2500

That was the fantasy.:redface:

Now for the reality:

Material came in at $423 instead of $900...this because I was remembering the price being PER FLAP instead of a kit for both. This was the only pleasant surprise...a rarity in aviation. ;)

Reskin labor came in a $910. He found some minor corrosion that he needed to fix and he installed the "rub buttons" that are stock on later Cessnas but that my flaps didn't have. Still...a bargain...this guy (Stephan Schomp) does really nice work.

Shipping came in at $430. This is what happens when you build a 100# crate to ship 20 pounds of flaps. :eek:

R&R and painting came in at $530 pretty close to the estimate.

Total cost to remove, reskin, repaint and reinstall flaps = $2300. $200 less than my original estimate.

Ohhh, but there's more!

I didn't think about replacing all the 57 year-old rollers. Roller kit (upgraded version) from McFarlane = $425

Then...Tim thinks to himself (dangerous, I know)...

Well, since we're in this realm and things are apart and we're painting already, we might as well install flap gap seals.

Seals from Knots2U = $560
Paint = $90
Install = $900 (pirep on this abortion due to horrible instructions to follow)

Total flap gap seal install = $1550

Total project = $4275

But, even with all the "overruns" I'm happy. The "go to guys", Williams in Indiana, wanted $1,750 per flap exchange price, and by the time shipping, painting, R&R was added, I would have been at $4885 just for the flaps.

So, I still got new flaps and flap gap seals for less than I originally thought I'd get just the flaps.

I won't complain.

:thumbsup:

Also, if anyone needs to borrow a flap gap track gauge or a flap roller install tool, I have both (I didn't buy McFarlane's roller intall tool for $35 each...I made two for $5 total). I'd be happy to loan them to anyone who needs them.

Here's the gauge

Here's the flap roller installation tool
 
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Whoa, $900 for installing the flap gap kit on a presumably bone stock 182A?

He didn't lubricate you very well. This should be the simplest job on the planet.
 
docmirror said:
Whoa, $900 for installing the flap gap kit on a presumably bone stock 182A? He didn't lubricate you very well.
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Uh, no, I was with him every step of the way and we each had at least 12 hours installing. He was kind with his total charge actually.

The instructions were lacking at best, in some cases misleading, and then (like what to do with the clear tape) completely non-existent. Numerous calls to customer service. At least they were helpful.

If the instructions wouldn't have been written in such a "who done it" mystery fashion, we'd likely have spent half the time.

And then, it was actually a detriment instead of an asset to the process that the flaps were off of the plane.

Like I said in my OP...a PIREP on the gap seal install abortion to come later....much later...since I don't have many kinds words for knots2u right now.

Edit: oh, and I should mention that we got to cut and fit one side twice because only after we got the right side skins cut, notched and fitted did we realize that they were scarred and gouged from one end to the other from the sheet metal brake jaws...badly enough that paint wouldn't have hidden the damage. They sent us new skins.

docmirror said:
This should be the simplest job on the planet.
Click to expand...

Curious, have you ever actually installed a knots2u flap gap seal kit are or you just blowing smoke?

There was lot of tweaking, shimming, adjusting, installing, measuring, uninstalling, shimming, tweaking, installing, and "straight edging" to get them right. Of course, I'm overly anal retentive and they had to be dead straight on a 6' straight edge.

And they are! :goofy:
 
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Two things I'll say:

Shipping these days really is a killer

I don't think the gap seals are worth the money or effort. If you were to devise a formula to figure out when they paid you off to the point of breaking even (if ever) you'd have to live a long life and do an awful lot of flying, probably to the point of being sick of it. They're also kind of a PITA during maintenance.
 
Silvaire said:
I don't think the gap seals are worth the money or effort.
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I won't argue that...it'll be interesting to see if i actually see the 4 to 5 MPH as claimed. I'm betting no.

Silvaire said:
They're also kind of a PITA during maintenance.
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The one nice part about the knots2u version as compared to some others is that they're not permanently riveted on. They're mounted with 6x32 screws and rivnuts. A whole freakin' bunch of 6x32 screws and rivnuts! About 30 per side. It's going to be like removing two more cowls at annual time (I always owner assist with the annual so that'll be my job :().
 
I didn't know that Tim. The old ones are riveted on, makes it hard to get the third screw in the inspection panels.

Well heck you already paid for 'em, they gotta give you something. They look good if nothing else. ;)
 
timwinters said:
I won't argue that...it'll be interesting to see if i actually see the 4 to 5 MPH as claimed. I'm betting no.



The one nice part about the knots2u version as compared to some others is that they're not permanently riveted on. They're mounted with 6x32 screws and rivnuts. A whole freakin' bunch of 6x32 screws and rivnuts! About 30 per side. It's going to be like removing two more cowls at annual time (I always owner assist with the annual so that'll be my job :().
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The funny thing is that you can stick foam weatherstripping tape into the gap and get the same results.
 
Henning said:
The funny thing is that you can stick foam weatherstripping tape into the gap and get the same results.
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Depends on what you mean by "same results" - 5 kts or nuthin'?
 
Henning said:
The funny thing is that you can stick foam weatherstripping tape into the gap and get the same results.
Click to expand...

Do you know how big the gap is on a 182? It's a freakin' Grand Canyon. The seals cover a gap about 4" wide and 2.5" deep. That'd take a buttload of weatherstripping.

Nice try though.
 
Not to mention it'd look like hell.
 
Silvaire said:
Depends on what you mean by "same results" - 5 kts or nuthin'?
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I've never seen 5 kts out of any flap gap seal, but usually you see 2, if it's a high wing load plane you might see 3-4:dunno:, I've never seen 5 except when we closed ailerons, flaps, and elevators. It's not the streamlining that does anything, it's preventing the pressure from going through the gap. We took a strip of cloth and taped in in between the ailerons and wing same for the elevator/h-stab), and use a foam seal for the retracted flaps, and it had the same effect on a 182 as using the full Knots-2-U kit.
 
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timwinters said:
Do you know how big the gap is on a 182? It's a freakin' Grand Canyon. The seals cover a gap about 4" wide and 2.5" deep. That'd take a buttload of weatherstripping.

Nice try though.
Click to expand...

Sorta in line with this post:

Henning said:
When I had my Midget Mustang, I had a modified IO-360 Lycoming in it putting out over 235hp, and it was a fine little commuter for me solo (and my cat the couple times he stowed on board) and would run right at 300kts, if I had put O2 in it and a turbo on it, I could have got it to 400 up high.
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:rolleyes:

:rofl::rofl:
 
Don't the flap gap seals help with climb out more than they do with actual speed boost??

I think I read somewhere of about 100-150FPM. This could be great for high DA TO.
 
TazzyTazzy said:
Don't the flap gap seals help with climb out more than they do with actual speed boost??

I think I read somewhere of about 100-150FPM. This could be great for high DA TO.
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Funny you should mention that. I don't think knots2u addressed that in their propaganda (or if they did, I missed it) but on my initial flights, I'm betting I got 200+fpm better climb rate than I'm used to...
 
Tim, one thing I've found is that it's much easier to track speed improvements with the Aspen. With the steam ASI I really didn't have the accuracy to catch the 1-5 kts that some of these things get.

But, details do matter and they add up. The 310 is now pushing 200 at 2500 RPM LOP whereas when I first got it it was more like 185 (or less) at 2500 RPM ROP.
 
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