Avemco vs AOPA AIG insurance
- Thread starter frfly172
- Start date
Well, we all paid for AIG's survival a few years ago, so you may as well take advantage of subsidized insurance rates.
![brian]](/community/data/avatars/m/21/21096.jpg?1456258959){kind=avatar}
brian]
Cleared for Takeoff
You have to compare options. AOPA wouldn't insure me with the Bo. Basically said it was a tricky airplane to fly, I'd kill myself or something like that. 100 hours with avemco with no issuers. Yet it is time to see an agent now for other options...
brian];1562158 said:
Here's a funny one. When I bought my Travelair I had 60hrs TT, 24 complex and no multi rating. $40k hull was $1100 first year, needed 20 dual and to do my ME rating in that plane. The agent was so surprised with this he checked on getting me insured in an equal value Bonanza and couldn't get it done for less than twice that. His comment when he called me started, "Well, the insurance must think that is a really safe plane...".
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
While it's probably impossible to prove given all the "holding companies" and "arms length" ownership involved, it's my understanding that the portion of AIG involved in aviation underwriting did not benefit at all from the government gift.
Jimmy cooper
En-Route
Very true.AIG, A real drain on the taxpayer, cost us billions. Be sure you check the coverage carefully. It's usually apples verses oranges on what is truly covered. Avemco, which I've used for 45 years is a little picky about low time pilots but comes thru immed. If you have a claim. They also self insure which means they do not go thru a broker who skims some dough for simply hooking you up. Very easy to talk to and know their stuff!
I just use a good broker. Traver's out of St Louis hooked me up very well at a reasonable price point.
Graueradler
Pattern Altitude
AVEMCO was always more expensive but covered things that I didn't need like replacement plane cost while mine was being repaired. AVEMCO has (had) a related company (National?) that provided lower cost coverage.
Kristin
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Avemco is owned by Houston Casualty Co. HCC also owned US Specialties Insurance Company and HCC writes some insurance under their own name.
Chip Sylverne
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Quit with the negative waves, man.
Prior to it's purchase by HCC, AVEMCO Corp wholly owned AVEMCO Insurance Company, Eastern Aviation and Marine, National Aviation Underwriters, US Specialty, Loss Management Services and a host of other non-aviation insurance managing general agencies. What HCC has done with the wholly owned properties after purchasing the corporation I have no idea.
Jimmy cooper
En-Route
Both Avemco and it's holding company are double A rated, are Delaware corporations ( the usual tax dodge) and my experienced with them has been excellent. I doubt if many people ever compare coverage but if it's cheaper they go for it, announcing that they got a real "good deal". In my case they paid full amount in 10 days with out a whimper. Anyone at Avemco that I've dealt with over the years, by phone has been very knowledgeable, courteous and explained the coverage in detail. I also liked to be able to have just hangar non flight insurance if the winter really set in. I used this for a month or two several times, and saved some real money.
l8evator
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l8evator
Please explain how being a Delaware corporation is a tax dodge, usual or otherwise?
Jimmy cooper
En-Route
Delaware has now and always has had very liberal tax breaks for corporations , many of them big ones. which is why major United States corporations list Delaware as their " corporate home" . This is so easy to research if one cares to look.
It is not. The corps still pay taxes in all the states they do business in.
Jimmy cooper
En-Route
As I said, look it up. It's been a tax haven since taxes began. It's the reason they base there. Started with DuPont, then when DuPont became a big, major stockholder in G.M. , it also incorporated in Delaware, then many more joined in. Today there are more corporations listed there than people in the state! very easy to register there, as easy as to register in the caymans. ( another big dodge) dupont is the major player in Delaware, providing thousands of jobs, especially during WW2 but not as much today, having gone overseas in many instances for even better tax rates. Very little transparency in Delaware, and corps. Pay taxes in the state or country they are registered in. Which is why so many have gone overseas. They would , however, expect the U.S. To come to their rescue should anything untoward happen overseas, spending taxpayers money. A classic example would be Halliburton, who, after screwing the taxpayer to a fare thee well in Iraq, making billions, moved their headquarters to Dubi!
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Corporate income tax
Delaware: 8.7%
South Dakota 0%
Wyoming 0%
Washington 0%
Nevada 0%
Illinois 9.5
California 8.8%
There are many reasons for a corporation to chose a corporate domicile, state income tax is only one of them.
One reason to locate in DE is the ease of conducting mergers and acquisitions. Selling a small insurer like Avemco from one conglomerate to another is a simple transaction at the courthouse.
Delaware: 8.7%
South Dakota 0%
Wyoming 0%
Washington 0%
Nevada 0%
Illinois 9.5
California 8.8%
There are many reasons for a corporation to chose a corporate domicile, state income tax is only one of them.
One reason to locate in DE is the ease of conducting mergers and acquisitions. Selling a small insurer like Avemco from one conglomerate to another is a simple transaction at the courthouse.
Oh, as for the original Avemco vs. AIG question. Avemco can be a good option for oddball planes, oddball pilots and 'step up' situations. They tend to be more expensive but are willing to discount heavily when faced with the prospect of losing an account.
The big downside with Avemco is a 'per person' sublimit which also applies to persons outside of your aircraft. This is different from the 'per passenger' sublimit typical in in the general aviation insurance market. As of last year, they also didn't offer 'smooth' coverage (insurance without a passenger or person sublimit) or limits beyond 1mil.
The big downside with Avemco is a 'per person' sublimit which also applies to persons outside of your aircraft. This is different from the 'per passenger' sublimit typical in in the general aviation insurance market. As of last year, they also didn't offer 'smooth' coverage (insurance without a passenger or person sublimit) or limits beyond 1mil.
NoHeat
En-Route
Delaware has well developed law and courts for corporations.
If you were running a big corp, you would rather use the corporate laws and courts in Delaware than in a state that kind of imitates other states without being especially good at it.
If you were running a big corp, you would rather use the corporate laws and courts in Delaware than in a state that kind of imitates other states without being especially good at it.
JimNtexas
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Jim - In Texas!
I think you are mistaken about why corporations tend to form in or move to Delaware as they get larger.
It's really nothing to do with taxes. The Delaware Chancery Court system offers a lot of advantages over those of most states. They are faster and perceived as more fair to corporations.
I dislike the term 'tax dodge'. Really there are no 'tax dodges', there are just tax laws. You 'dodge' or 'loophole' is my 'fairness' or 'economic incentive'. Or vise versa.
jtheune
Ejection Handle Pulled
For someone who is constantly telling people how easy it is to research something you seem to be failing big time on this issue.
he transaction is expected to close on Friday. By Treasury's calculation, the final round of sales means the government will have a net positive return on its AIG bailout of $22.7 billion.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323339704578172960483282372
Jimmy cooper
En-Route
If you refuse to research it, I cannot help. The facts are plain and simple. As for "tax laws" they have been carefully introduced by lobbyists and tax lawyers to facilitate the non payment of taxes by corporations. They are in fact tax dodges . Your lost in semantics. Get with it. Study.
If they are so simple, why dont you just present them here ?
The fact is that Delaware corporate income tax is in the top bracket, still corporations chose DE as their domicile over no-tax alternatives like NV, WY, SD and WA. Even with the most generous of tax exemptions, DE will not have a lower tax burden than zero. If state corporate income tax was high on the list of priorities, all of those 'tax dodgers' would have moved to SD a long time ago. They dont, because in the mix of things, state corporate tax rate doesn't matter all that much.
schmookeeg
En-Route
I researched it before creating my delaware corp.
My DE corp pays franchise tax in CA where I do business.
My DE corp pays use tax in CA in lieu of sales tax.
I chose DE for two reasons: very strong privacy, and pro-business courts. This particular corp was created because its line of business could draw litigation over very fine technical business details, and I wanted as strong a defense as possible. It's actually a real PITA to incorporate in DE and do biz in CA.
As someone else mentioned, the DE Chancery Court is "the biz", and the other states are pretending.
For the record, you can research the fact that stating "I'm right, you're wrong, I don't need to present any facts, you can research it yourself" is a lousy persuasion technique.
I would love to hear which tax I'm not paying by incorporating in DE. I pay a shedload of them, and would hate to have wasted a few bones.
$0.02 (@ 8.840% flat CA corporate tax rate)