Autoland King Air 200 Due to Pilot Incapacitation Broomfield, CO 12/20/25

[bbchien]

Your understanding of the study indicates a lack of understanding of it and it's relevance to the King Air occurrence. They did not use a low partial pressure as a proxy. They used a lower percentage mixture as a proxy for the four altitudes. We agree that is a proxy when you don't use an altitude chamber. While I am random I do have related background. A ride in the chamber a long time ago. Unpressurized flight to 250 with O2 (can't remember if we went 100%) with a bunch of spin recoveries on the way down. Airline training that allowed us to remove masks at 10. But Dr. Bruce is right about degradation at 12500 unpressurized. As I said, the colors become brighter when you put the mask on at 12000 plus or minus to land at La Paz. But he hasn't given us any study of forebrain insult in the 15 seconds of high altitude decompression before you are on O2 at 100% and if there was an insult whether 100% on the way down would clear it up by 10 or by the gate.

Self inconsistent: A Diluter mask does not give you 100%. If you're lucky it's 40% (of 1/3 of an atmoshere@ FL 18). That's 12% oxygen (normal is 20). It will sustain life! But you cannot present any data that sez they weren't impaired for 30 minutes either. It has not been studied directly...the companies do not want the studes done - but, the inference is pretty clear.

You know, they have autodescend for a reason....(oh, not on KAs- OH wait!)

 

[Roger Wilco]

"What difference, at this point, does it make?"

None. In fact, that could be said about this entire thread.

 

[MauleSkinner]

None. In fact, that could be said about this entire thread.

Because there’s no use in learning anything so that future occurrences will happen with fewer questionable elements.

 

[Roger Wilco]

Because there’s no use in learning anything so that future occurrences will happen with fewer questionable elements.

Yes, of course--that is exactly what is happening here. Like, after reading this forum, I'm gonna go fly my King Air and experience a rapid decompression, and in the initial moment of surprised confusion I pause to ponder, "Hmmm...what would PoA do in this situation, to reduce questionable elements? And, what are those questionalbe elements? And who will be the questioners--people who aren't here and have no way of knowing what's actually happening?"

A handful of pieces of a jigsaw puzzle are presented to a random group of netizens. The netizens attempt to complete the puzzle but crucial pieces are missing, so they engage in much speculation and hypothesizing. Soon, an argument breaks out--same as it ever was.

Seriously, there may be something to learn from this thread but it doesn't involve airplanes.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Yes, of course--that is exactly what is happening here. Like, after reading this forum, I'm gonna go fly my King Air and experience a rapid decompression, and in the initial moment of surprised confusion I pause to ponder, "Hmmm...what would PoA do in this situation, to reduce questionable elements? And, what are those questionalbe elements? And who will be the questioners--people who aren't here and have no way of knowing what's actually happening?"

A handful of pieces of a jigsaw puzzle are presented to a random group of netizens. The netizens attempt to complete the puzzle but crucial pieces are missing, so they engage in much speculation and hypothesizing. Soon, an argument breaks out--same as it ever was.

Seriously, there may be something to learn from this thread but it doesn't involve airplanes.

One can learn from the questions asked that no one wants to or can answer…like what does the manufacturer say to do? If you find yourself with an airplane that has this capability, it seems like following manufacturer’s Limitations, Procedures, and other guidance would reduce the questionable elements.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

My problem might also be because they might, I emphasize might, not have been trained, not studied the systems on the bird they were flying.

If anything comes from this, I hope it's that operators of these birds make sure crews are better trained on this system.

Unless they’ve changed it in the last 15 years, the King Air 200 AFM procedure for decompression includes an emergency descent, so I’m not sure how that’s evidence of, or even suggesting that, they followed the procedure in the Supplement.

Now I'm back to having no idea what "procedure in the supplement" you're talking about. ???

 

[JimLAFB]

Self inconsistent: A Diluter maks does not give you 100%. If your' lucky it's 40% (of 1/3 of an atmoshere@ FL 18). That's because there isn't any. But you cannot present any data that sez they weren't impaired for 30 minutes either. I as not been studied- and, the inference is pretty clear.

I don't know what O2 mask this bird had but I read that the ceiling of a 200 is 35000. I would expect that the mask had a 100% option. O2 masks on and 100% is what I recall from my various aircraft procedures. Once leveled off at a safe altitude Normal (diluter-demand) is selected with the option to take the mask of at 10000 or below.

 

[Rockymountain]

And if these pilots truly were less competent to handle this emergency and safely land the plane, then the computer, that's a great reason to never fly this carrier or with these pilots.

Define competence ;-). This technology can land the plane in 0/0 conditions 100/100 times. Is not subject to spatial D. Is impartial to low oxygen, smoke in the cockpit etc. Not many pilots going to be able to do all that. But will be interesting to get the full story, which none of us have at this point.

 

[Lindberg]

This technology can land the plane in 0/0 conditions 100/100 times. Is not subject to spatial D. Is impartial to low oxygen, smoke in the cockpit etc. Not many pilots going to be able to do all that. But will be interesting to get the full story, which none of us have at this point.

That's a bold claim considering it's been successful exactly once under real-world conditions. And that number was zero when these pilots made their decision.

 

[dmspilot]

Self inconsistent: A Diluter mask does not give you 100%. If you're lucky it's 40% (of 1/3 of an atmoshere@ FL 18). That's 12% oxygen (normal is 20).

You appear to be making up numbers again but I'll retract that if you can cite a source for this. Unfortunately the oldest version of Part 23 I can find is from 1993 which required diluted demand masks to supply at least 122mmHg of oxygen pressure, or 4.8"Hg, which is 16.05% (4.8"Hg/29.92"Hg). This would be equivalent to ambient air oxygen at 7,264 feet.