Authorities force pilot to make emergency landing

i'd imagine this counts as a violation though? anyone know for sure?
 
I'm unable to understand what he violated or why he was forced down. Anyone familiar with this "LOOP" facility, and any associated flight restrictions?
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm unable to understand what he violated or why he was forced down. Anyone familiar with this "LOOP" facility, and any associated flight restrictions?
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The LOOP facility is within Alert Area A-381. A-381 extends from the surface to 2000 MSL, the using agency is "General aviation aircraft - no specific agency." Sounds like it's for all those helicopters shuttling to oil platforms. But it's an Alert Area, not a Restricted Area or Prohibited Area. Nothing in the article suggests the pilot did anything wrong.
 
I especially like the comment about it being a rookie mistake to be NORDO...
 
He should start with a request for compensation for his costs.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm unable to understand what he violated or why he was forced down. Anyone familiar with this "LOOP" facility, and any associated flight restrictions?
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Since when does a military intercept near the coast "require" anyone to violate anything? :frown3:
 
Richard, whats so special about the coast? He didn't necessarily cross any boarders. We fly up and down the NJ coast all the time in the summer. It sounds like a lot is missing from this story. If not fishermen better be weary that the USN dosen't search them whilst they surf fish.
 
One of these days they're going to kill someone.

When they do, it will mean more restrictions on GA because we all know "they can't be wrong".
 
'They' have killed someone, though it was back in the eighties.

I don't know Adam, not enough info in the article. Did he enter the ADIZ? Donno. Is there a NOTAM? Donno.
 
Kelvin said:
I especially like the comment about it being a rookie mistake to be NORDO...
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If the article is all there is, the police chief is an idiot. Even if the guy had his radio on, to what frequency might it have been tuned? I was listening to 122.75 for a while last Saturday, then 122.800, then 124.400. Only the 124.400 was required (tower at our home class D).

Of course, the newspaper reporter didn't know any better.
 
Steve said:
Location of the LOOP

https://www.loopllc.com/f1.cfm?n=1

The port facility is located in the Gulf of Mexico, eighteen miles south of Grand Isle, Louisiana

which, if I'm not mistaken, puts it under the ADIZ
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I think you're mistaken, about the location of the LOOP and the ADIZ. At eighteen miles due south of Grand Isle you'd still be ten miles north of the ADIZ. The LOOP is about twelve miles southwest of Grand Isle. Tankers moor about a mile and a half offshore while offloading, the ADIZ is about 18 miles away at it's closest point.
 
Ghery said:
Even if the guy had his radio on...

Of course, the newspaper reporter didn't know any better.
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Don't forget that the average person off the street, especially reporters, KNOW for a fact that all airplanes must be in constant communication with ATC even if someone is hand pushing an airplane between hangars on a private dirt strip on the backside of the moon.
 
Here is the sectional, no where near the ADIZ, but there is the "Monitor Radio Freq." notice. Since NORDO is legal, and you are not in airspace which requires it D C B A etc.... I wonder if that monitor notice means you MUST have and USE it?
 

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fgcason said:
Don't forget that the average person off the street, especially reporters, KNOW for a fact that all airplanes must be in constant communication with ATC even if someone is hand pushing an airplane between hangars on a private dirt strip on the backside of the moon.
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AND on a flight plan, whatever that is, because all the little planes that crash all the time don't have them.
 
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sheldon957 said:
Here is the sectional, no where near the ADIZ, but there is the "Monitor Radio Freq." notice. Since NORDO is legal, and you are not in airspace which requires it D C B A etc.... I wonder if that monitor notice means you MUST have and USE it?
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You just have to monitor 5 different radio frequencies? Not only no NORDOs, do they require a radio scanner? :dunno:
 
sheldon957 said:
Here is the sectional, no where near the ADIZ, but there is the "Monitor Radio Freq." notice. Since NORDO is legal, and you are not in airspace which requires it D C B A etc.... I wonder if that monitor notice means you MUST have and USE it?
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If the faciilty in question is indeed eighteen miles due south of Grand Isle (maybe he flew near the LOOP onshore facility), it would be south of the Alert Area and obviously more than 10 miles from the locations listed in the box on the sectional.
 
alaskaflyer said:
'They' have killed someone, though it was back in the eighties.
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Are you thinking of the F-4 Phantom that cut the top off the Baron (killing nine people) coming out of the Bahamas who was told to land in Florida and decided he wanted to fly to South Carolina because that was his destination?
 
john smith said:
Are you thinking of the F-4 Phantom that cut the top off the Baron (killing nine people) coming out of the Bahamas who was told to land in Florida and decided he wanted to fly to South Carolina because that was his destination?
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Or the missionaries that were shot down (with U.S. help) in Latin America because they were flying low along a river? (some survived that one)
 
Ron Levy said:
I would point out that the Baron pilot who had the mid-air with the F-4 was in fact operating in violation of the regulations. I'm not saying the pilot deserved to die for that, but if the pilot had complied with the rules, the accident would not have happened. You can read the full report here: http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR84-07.pdf
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Truedat - he doesn't exactly make for a compelling case study in government overreaching. However, the survivors of the five passengers might disagree. As I said, plenty of blame to go around.
 
Ron Levy said:
I would point out that the Baron pilot who had the mid-air with the F-4 was in fact operating in violation of the regulations. I'm not saying the pilot deserved to die for that, but if the pilot had complied with the rules, the accident would not have happened. You can read the full report here: http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR84-07.pdf
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nut from manifold pressure gauge embedded in F4 wing
rudder hinge embedded in F4 wing
human hair and blood on F4 wing

Ugly way to go.
 
flyersfan31 said:
Ugly way to go.
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Based on the trajectories, horizontal and vertical, as shown in that document, I'm relieved to know that none of the occupants likely knew what happened to them.

Found this on Wiki re the Baron's pilot, in an article listing accidents and incidents involving military aircraft.

Flamboyant lawyer Tiffany had been imprisoned for two months in 1978 after a plane he was piloting was forced down with engine trouble in Haiti with more than a ton of marijuana on board. U.S. drug authorities said later that Tiffany was implicated in a major Northern Virginia smuggling ring. In fact, on the fatal flight, Tiffany was by-passing his flight plan's required U.S. customs stop in Florida and was attempting a direct flight to Norfolk, said a National Transportation Safety Board report issued 23 August 1983.
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http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAIBAJ&pg=5839,1597544&dq=henry-tiffany+haiti
 
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Ugly way to go.
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Plane crashes normally are....the only worse way to go would be to either burn alive or drown after surviving the crash.

The only thing one can say that was a source of "comfort" (if that's the right word) is what Troy said: they probably never knew what hit them.
 
SteveinMichigan said:
Plane crashes normally are....the only worse way to go would be to either burn alive or drown after surviving the crash.
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For me, the worst-case scenarios involve a mid-air or other mess-up that renders the aircraft uncontrollable and incapable of flight where I have several long seconds to ponder what I could have done better before my imminent death, or a ditching in cold water where the hypothermia beats the drowning to the punch. :eek:

The latter is why I have a very specific set of rules for what circumstances I'll fly across Lake Michigan (or the other Great Lakes) under. It's also why I want a twin.
 
For some odd reason I just happened to google my dad's name yesterday (it was my 40th birthday and perhaps I'm feeling a bit nostalgic)

I was so so so amazed to come across this thread and see his name discussed some 30 years later after his death. He was a good man. Yes he had faults, as do we all. But he was my father. I lost him at the tender age of 8 years old. I still remember the day that my oldest sister came to my elementary school and pulled me out class to bring me home so my mother could tell me that his plane had been hit by a military jet in mid-air.

Two A-4 phantom jets were scrambled from a military base in North Carolina to go up and "visually identify" his plane because he had re-routed through an air force restricted zone off of the coast of North Carolina. The air traffic controller in DC had already identified him as a non-hostile plane flying through the government airspace to avoid a nor'easter storm. However, the government scrambled two A-4's to visually identify him because they wanted to treat this incident as a "training mission" for their pilots.

To be clear - every plane was flying on instruments. The Nor'easter prevented any visibility. One of the A-4's believed he was flying 1000 below my dad's plane, but in fact, he was actually flying on the same altitude. He sliced through my dad's plane and subsequently my father's plane crashed into the ocean. All passengers on board were presumed dead.

The two A-4's landed safely back at the air force base. Unharmed.

My mother sued the government and the case went all the way to the supreme court. During the 10 year trial, my mother received many letters from private pilots who had also experienced close calls with military aircraft who decided to use them as a training mission for hostile aircraft. They expressed their fear and sent their condolences and wished us the best.

I am so sorry for the typos and misspelling in this mail. I am actually crying right now so its hard to type through all of the tears. I feel very blessed that this site exists and thank you for constantly questioning what you know and wonder about.

Kind regards,

Tris Tiffany
 
I had to go to the books to refresh:

Chapter 26. Alert Areas

Section 1. General

26-1-1. DEFINITION

An alert area is airspace wherein a high volume of pilot training or an unusual type of aeronautical activity is conducted.

26-1-2. PURPOSE

Alert areas are designated to inform nonparticipating pilots of areas that contain a high volume of pilot training operations, or an unusual type of aeronautical activity, that they might not otherwise expect to encounter. Pilots are advised to be particularly alert when flying in these areas.

26-1-3. LOCATION

Alert areas must not extend into Class A, B, C, and D airspace, or Class E airport surface areas. To the extent possible, alert areas should avoid Federal airways, major terminal areas, and high volume VFR routes. Once an alert area is designated, the establishment of Federal airways through such areas should be kept to a minimum.

26-1-4. ACTIVITIES

a. Only those activities that do not pose a hazard to other aircraft may be conducted in an alert area.

b. All alert area activities must be conducted in accordance with visual flight rules, and in compliance with applicable Sections of 14 CFR.

c. Flight Service Stations may broadcast information regarding alert area activities as circumstances dictate.

26-1-5. IDENTIFICATION

Alert areas must be identified by the letter “A" prefix followed by a dash, a two or three digit number, a location, and the two-letter state abbreviation (e.g., A-292, Pensacola, FL). A letter suffix is used to indicate subdivisions. Identification numbers are assigned by Airspace Regulations and ATC Procedures Group. Aeronautical charts must be annotated to reflect the type of activity conducted in the alert area.

########################################
I guess, by some stretch, the fact that he wasn't monitoring one of the alert freqs put him in 'violation' of 14CFR according to 26-1-4b? Although I can't for the life of me figure out where in 14CFR there's anything about requiring a radio to be on or anything. I also realized when I traced out A-381 that I operate in there on the far western edge without monitoring any of the freqs quite often. Hmmmm, another 'violation' I've racked up without knowing it.

Violation is whatever they say it is. Guessing the cost for the intercept to be around $40,000 or so? Well, thank goodness they saved the country from a -- Piper ASEL....

<edit: Be alert. The world needs more lerts.>
 
Welcome.

Sorry for your family's loss.



Tris_Tiffany said:
For some odd reason I just happened to google my dad's name yesterday (it was my 40th birthday and perhaps I'm feeling a bit nostalgic)

I was so so so amazed to come across this thread and see his name discussed some 30 years later after his death. He was a good man. Yes he had faults, as do we all. But he was my father. I lost him at the tender age of 8 years old. I still remember the day that my oldest sister came to my elementary school and pulled me out class to bring me home so my mother could tell me that his plane had been hit by a military jet in mid-air.

Two A-4 phantom jets were scrambled from a military base in North Carolina to go up and "visually identify" his plane because he had re-routed through an air force restricted zone off of the coast of North Carolina. The air traffic controller in DC had already identified him as a non-hostile plane flying through the government airspace to avoid a nor'easter storm. However, the government scrambled two A-4's to visually identify him because they wanted to treat this incident as a "training mission" for their pilots.

To be clear - every plane was flying on instruments. The Nor'easter prevented any visibility. One of the A-4's believed he was flying 1000 below my dad's plane, but in fact, he was actually flying on the same altitude. He sliced through my dad's plane and subsequently my father's plane crashed into the ocean. All passengers on board were presumed dead.

The two A-4's landed safely back at the air force base. Unharmed.

My mother sued the government and the case went all the way to the supreme court. During the 10 year trial, my mother received many letters from private pilots who had also experienced close calls with military aircraft who decided to use them as a training mission for hostile aircraft. They expressed their fear and sent their condolences and wished us the best.

I am so sorry for the typos and misspelling in this mail. I am actually crying right now so its hard to type through all of the tears. I feel very blessed that this site exists and thank you for constantly questioning what you know and wonder about.

Kind regards,

Tris Tiffany
Click to expand...
 
Tris_Tiffany said:
For some odd reason I just happened to google my dad's name yesterday (it was my 40th birthday and perhaps I'm feeling a bit nostalgic)

.........

Kind regards,

Tris Tiffany
Click to expand...


WOW...

That was one hell of a first post........

Welcome to POA....

Sorry for your loss...:sad::sad:
 
Tris_Tiffany said:
For some odd reason I just happened to google my dad's name yesterday (it was my 40th birthday and perhaps I'm feeling a bit nostalgic)

I was so so so amazed to come across this thread and see his name discussed some 30 years later after his death. He was a good man. Yes he had faults, as do we all. But he was my father. I lost him at the tender age of 8 years old. I still remember the day that my oldest sister came to my elementary school and pulled me out class to bring me home so my mother could tell me that his plane had been hit by a military jet in mid-air.

Two A-4 phantom jets were scrambled from a military base in North Carolina to go up and "visually identify" his plane because he had re-routed through an air force restricted zone off of the coast of North Carolina. The air traffic controller in DC had already identified him as a non-hostile plane flying through the government airspace to avoid a nor'easter storm. However, the government scrambled two A-4's to visually identify him because they wanted to treat this incident as a "training mission" for their pilots.

To be clear - every plane was flying on instruments. The Nor'easter prevented any visibility. One of the A-4's believed he was flying 1000 below my dad's plane, but in fact, he was actually flying on the same altitude. He sliced through my dad's plane and subsequently my father's plane crashed into the ocean. All passengers on board were presumed dead.

The two A-4's landed safely back at the air force base. Unharmed.

My mother sued the government and the case went all the way to the supreme court. During the 10 year trial, my mother received many letters from private pilots who had also experienced close calls with military aircraft who decided to use them as a training mission for hostile aircraft. They expressed their fear and sent their condolences and wished us the best.

I am so sorry for the typos and misspelling in this mail. I am actually crying right now so its hard to type through all of the tears. I feel very blessed that this site exists and thank you for constantly questioning what you know and wonder about.

Kind regards,

Tris Tiffany
Click to expand...
I lost count of the factual errors in this post after two paragraphs. While I sympathize with the poster's sense of loss, the facts of that accident aren't what the post states.
 
The only thing I can think of is that the CBP thought it was "odd behavior". If he did in fact fly over a tanker, off loading, then he might have painted a target on himself.

Yes, there is nothing illegal about flying in that airspace. However, there are just some places you should avoid just in case people get the wrong idea.

I can fly low over the nearby Air Force space fence facility and Lockheed rocket facility all day according to the Memphis sectional. Now is it smart ? Nope.
 
Ron Levy said:
I lost count of the factual errors in this post after two paragraphs. While I sympathize with the poster's sense of loss, the facts of that accident aren't what the post states.
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Assuming "the facts" as presented by "the government" are really "facts."

I have first hand knowledge of two NTSB reports that are pure fiction.
 
ARFlyer said:
The only thing I can think of is that the CBP thought it was "odd behavior". If he did in fact fly over a tanker, off loading, then he might have painted a target on himself.

Yes, there is nothing illegal about flying in that airspace. However, there are just some places you should avoid just in case people get the wrong idea.

I can fly low over the nearby Air Force space fence facility and Lockheed rocket facility all day according to the Memphis sectional. Now is it smart ? Nope.
Click to expand...

If you fly through the legal airspace over the space facility do you deserve to die?
 
Ron Levy said:
I lost count of the factual errors in this post after two paragraphs. While I sympathize with the poster's sense of loss, the facts of that accident aren't what the post states.
Click to expand...

Then re-read the report. Fact is that they continue attempting a visual identification in low visibility when the plane has been positively identified by radar, radio and transponder and all parameters are known. If that's not a training mission by that point, then what is it?
 
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