ATP Career Pilot Program

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JasonCT

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JasonCT
Greetings everyone!

As many of you know, my plane was destroyed last weekend. :(

So, this got me to thinking...I orig. purchased the plane to build time and ratings on to one day fly as a career. The thought I am having is using my insurance money to join ATP for their following program;

Certificates & Ratings
  • Private Multi-Engine
  • Instrument Multi-Engine
  • Commercial Multi-Engine
  • Commercial Single-Engine
  • Certified Flight Instructor:
    • Multi-Engine
    • Instrument Airplane
    • Single-Engine
  • Jet Transition:
    • High Altitude Endorsement
    • High Performance Endorsement
Flight Time
  • 200 Hours Logged Time
  • 190 Hours Multi-Engine Time
    • 75 Hours Multi-Engine Cross-Country
    • 65 Hours Multi-Engine Instruction
      & Flight Checks
    • Citation Jet Transition
    • 50 Hours Multi-Engine FTD
  • 10 Hours Single-Engine Time
This all accomplished in 90 days and I know a few places that will hire with 200 hours of multi time right out the gate.

Does anyone here have any expieriance, or know of any expieriances with ATP???

I look forward to hearing from you all.
 
I dont have any personal experience with any of these types of pay for training outfits, but have heard a lot of horror stories. Here is an email I got from a good friend today, who flies Embraer Brasilias from Florida to the Bahamas for Gulfstream.

If you are ever feeling broke just think of Me...


Current lender - Key Education Resources
Principal Balance - $113,384
Accrued Interest -$16,500.74
In Grace until - January 31, 2007
Current Interest rate - 8.69%
Estimated Monthly Payments - $1100
Not being able to eat = death
Flying airplanes for a living = PRICELESS!!!
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I guess you just have to decide how much its worth to you.

BTW, what happened to the 150? I hadnt heard anything
 
Thanks Tony -- well it broke 2 of its tie downs in 65Kts winds at the airport last weekend.

A total loss.

My thinking is that I know it seems like a lot to shell out to make so little to start but I think there are some plus' like:

Ability to finance with a Govt. lender with defered payments

Airline hiring connections

Still cheaper than any 4 year school

Networking opportunities

Just some things I was thinking about.
 
Thanks Tony -- well it broke 2 of its tie downs in 65Kts winds at the airport last weekend.
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:eek: thats a bummer Jay, sorry to hear it
 
Ask them what percentage of folks who start the program complete it, and what percentage of those get hired on completion.
 
I know of a couple of ATP grads, who went to flight instructing after graduation and then onto the regionals. They were very pleased with the quality of the instruction they got (X/Cs were really across the country).

I'd also ask if they could get you the citation type rating. Getting a type is a good discriminator as it shows you can successfully drink from the fire hose, and fly to ATP standards.
 
Private Multi-Engine
  • Instrument Multi-Engine
  • Commercial Multi-Engine
  • Commercial Single-Engine
  • Certified Flight Instructor:
    • Multi-Engine
    • Instrument Airplane
    • Single-Engine
  • Jet Transition:
    • High Altitude Endorsement
    • High Performance Endorsement
Flight Time
  • 200 Hours Logged Time
  • 190 Hours Multi-Engine Time
    • 75 Hours Multi-Engine Cross-Country
    • 65 Hours Multi-Engine Instruction
      & Flight Checks
    • Citation Jet Transition
    • 50 Hours Multi-Engine FTD
  • 10 Hours Single-Engine Time
This all accomplished in 90 days and I know a few places that will hire with 200 hours of multi time right out the gate.


Jayson,

I have no experience with ATP. I've been pretty much training myself with Tony's help--transisitoning from gliders to power. I have been curious about these types of training schools.

A couple questions... Was your plane paid for and do you get the insurance cash free and clear?

How much does this ATP training cost?

Do you have a 4 year degree already?

What license do you already have?

Sorry about your plane. I hope it turns into a great aviation career for you!

I've been strongly advised by a couple of aviation professionals to avoid going into debt for training and to consider crop dusting because you can make airline captain money in just a couple years if you work at it. I already have a dangerous job so that's not an issue. To me, the appeal of a program like ATP is the immersion and intensity of focus on flying to the exclusion of all else. If I had the bucks up front I'd be really tempted!
 
Crap, I just realized I spelled your name wrong. Blame Tony, he's never emphasized spelling in ANY of my lessons.
 
wby0nder said:
How much does this ATP training cost? -- Complete 44K and it is a locked in price unlike some of the other "immersion" schools.

Do you have a 4 year degree already? - I have 2 actaully--but neither have anything to do with aviation or eachother really.

What license do you already have? - none 51hours and the plane was wrecked 2 weekes before my checkride.

Sorry about your plane. I hope it turns into a great aviation career for you! -- Thanks, I do too :)

I've been strongly advised by a couple of aviation professionals to avoid going into debt for training and to consider crop dusting because you can make airline captain money in just a couple years if you work at it. I already have a dangerous job so that's not an issue. To me, the appeal of a program like ATP is the immersion and intensity of focus on flying to the exclusion of all else. If I had the bucks up front I'd be really tempted! --

Some of these schools are able to be financed with govt. student loans, such as Sallie Mae, unlike the local FBO which for me allows me to get ratings done quicker.
Click to expand...

I will make sure that I speak to Tony about the spelling of my name LOL .
 
Jason,

I was looking at Utah Valley State College's 4 year degree and it's pretty cool. You can flight train at a bunch of sites around the nation and do your degree course work online. Plus I think you can get it financed through govt grants. Check it out at: http://www.uvsc.edu/avsc/

$44k aint bad especially if you can knock a bunch of it down with your insurance money.

One of my airline buddys told me that a 4 year degree is important for airline jobs but that it makes no difference what the degree is.

It just blows my mind how little you get paid teaching or flying regionals. When I tell non-aviation friends what there airline co-pilots salery probably is it totally freeks them out.

Matt
 
If you finish your private you can get college credit at UVSC for it then go on to advanced ratings and get college credit for them too.

MM
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Do you already have a 4-year degree? That's almost a necessity.
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I have 2 undergraduate degrees Kent.

But, I was using that more as a point of fact re: the borrowing of student loans to pay for flight school -- the argument I hear is why borrow 40K to graduate and end up with a job that will pay you maybe 25K +/- to start.....my responce was why borrow over 100K to come out of the 4 year setting to make (I think my first real job after college was slightly under 40K) --- just don't think that the borrowing scenario should be a deterrant for people wanting to get their ratings done and find that financing them through a student loan source may be the only way to do it for some people.

Just my thoughts :dunno:
 
CapeCodJay said:
Thanks Scott! Tough to see let me tell ya.
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Well I hope you insurance helps you to your next plane and that you do not get left out hanging with a pile of scrap metal. Everytime a big storm comes my way all I keep thinking about is if my plane is ok. I am in a hanger but those can blow down too.
 
So just got this email from ATP -- This place is looking better and better all the time....Look what they are adding to their "Career Pilot Prog."

ATP purchases fleet of 20 Diamond D-JETs,
selected by Diamond to perform D-JET training
Announced at AOPA Expo 2006 in Palm Springs, CA
​
“ATP announces its purchase of 20 Diamond D-JETs and 5 Diamond Flight Training Devices (FTDs) and the formation of a strategic training partnership with Diamond Aircraft, in which ATP will provide factory-approved initial type ratings and recurrent training in the Diamond D-JET at locations across the U.S.”
ATP also plans to integrate a D-JET type rating and nationwide jet cross-country experience into the Airline Career Pilot Program


 
Be careful. These things sound like such a great thing. But please consider the following:

1.) Why do you fly? Is it because you love to fly or is it because you want to make a living at it? If you are in love with flying small airplanes. Trust me when you get into corporate aviation or the airlines that is not flying small airplanes. You'll still want to fly them--and you might not be able to afford it. I know several people that are professional pilots that constantly let me know that.

2.) How much debt are you going to be in when you get out of this? How are you going to live? Will you even be able to afford the loan payment and a place to live? I bet you won't have a dollar left to put into flying for fun.

That said. I looked at my options and they just weren't looking good. Aviation isn't always a bad career. For some people it works out very nicely. I hate to sound like an ass-- But some people do pretty well.. But they also had every dollar paid for by their parents. That makes it a hell of a lot easier. Those that do not have this...It's tough.

Just think it through and don't let me discourage you. If you still want to do it .. go for it.

I'd rather just keep it my dream..and dream about doing it. When I wake up I'll go to work..Have enough money to feed myself and have some fun...and on the weekends I can just do what I love which is flying small planes. I'll never see the cockpit of a Lear 45. I'll never be in command of a huge airplane. But I'll be able to put food on the table.
 
Jay, I would offer this. Flying for a living can be wonderful. It can also suck. Flying for a living can be full of adventure. It can also be excruciatingly boring. Flying for a living can be lucrative. It can also be very difficult to make ends meet. Flying can be the job by which all other jobs are measured. It can also be as mundane as mopping the floor. It's different for everyone as are the ways you get your foot in the door. If this is road you want to take to get there...best of luck. The expense of it all is after all, just money. Best of luck.
 
It's been my experience that the folks who love flying find a way to be happy in their flying career, and the folks who merely liked flying and wanted the airline pilot perks are unhappy.

As previously noted, very few get to do what they love for a living, generally because they find they value something else (family, lifestyle, money) more.
 
Jay, I think everyone needs to follow their own path and what's right for someone is probably not right for someone else. People have their own priorities and agendas. That's why I don't like to give advice.

Even if it was over tomorrow I don't regret the fact that I've spent almost all of my adult life flying for a living, first as a camera operator, then as a pilot. I'll have to admit that I'm not a ball of fire ambitionwise and I've always been the tortoise in the tortoise and hare story. That may be why I admire people who have your kind of ambition. I'll add, though, that because I took the slow route I didn't have trouble financing my ratings or my life in general. The other side of the coin is that I'm about 5-10 years older than the other folks in my position where I work.

There are lots of different kinds of pilot jobs but the key word is "job". They're not paying you have fun although I try to make my days (or nights) as pleasant and painless as possible for myself and others around me. I generally enjoy what I do but there are some days that truly suck. On the other hand my job provides me a lot of variety and interest, and I have been places and done things that I never would have gotten the chance to do otherwise.

Good luck whatever you decide. :yes:
 
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CapeCodJay said:
ATP also plans to integrate a D-JET type rating and nationwide jet cross-country experience into the Airline Career Pilot Program
Click to expand...

That is way cool, but beware of the timing. The D-Jet doesn't exist yet. There's a single prototype which may very well be more of a publicity tool than a true prototype. I don't think they'll start delivering any for the next few years, and I don't know where on the waiting list ATP is (though I'd think they'd want to get jets to them quick if they're a training partner). You may be out and done by the time they get one.

Chris
 
cwyckham said:
That is way cool, but beware of the timing. The D-Jet doesn't exist yet. There's a single prototype which may very well be more of a publicity tool than a true prototype.
Click to expand...

No, it's a real prototype. If it was a publicity tool, it would have spent more than four hours at OSH. (It arrived at 10:30 AM on Thursday, did a quick flight demo at the beginning of the airshow at 2:30, and then headed back to London, ON to resume test flights.)

I don't think they'll start delivering any for the next few years
Click to expand...

Expected deliveries to begin sometime in 2008. Everyone seems to have delays, but Diamond has been cranking aircraft through the certification process at an impressive rate. This is not their first. :no:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
No, it's a real prototype. If it was a publicity tool, it would have spent more than four hours at OSH. (It arrived at 10:30 AM on Thursday, did a quick flight demo at the beginning of the airshow at 2:30, and then headed back to London, ON to resume test flights.)



Expected deliveries to begin sometime in 2008. Everyone seems to have delays, but Diamond has been cranking aircraft through the certification process at an impressive rate. This is not their first. :no:
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My information is a year out of date, so you may be right about it being a proper prototype. However, they've just transferred the design to the Canadian office. That may mean that things speed up because Austria's busy, or it may mean a slow down because Canada isn't fully staffed yet and there may be some loss of continuity with the transfer.

If they do the transfer well, it could mean that they'll be able to meet the deadlines. They also have to streamline or expand their production facillity in London Ontario. As with anything, if they manage all the changes well, it'll come through more or less on time. If not, it won't. However, they have a lot to manage with shifting locations and ramping up a production facillity.

Chris
 
cwyckham said:
My information is a year out of date, so you may be right about it being a proper prototype. However, they've just transferred the design to the Canadian office. That may mean that things speed up because Austria's busy, or it may mean a slow down because Canada isn't fully staffed yet and there may be some loss of continuity with the transfer.
Click to expand...

Just? I'm pretty sure it's been there at least since they've been building anything. The flying prototype did come from London, ON. I'm guessing it's simply a matter of paper design vs. production tooling design and the switch was planned all along. I'm also guessing that all of the jets will be built in Canada. Currently, all of the Lyc-powered DA40's are produced in Canada (TDI's built and sold in Europe).

If they follow the pattern that everyone else does, this first prototype is "non-conforming" and simply being used to shake out the design. Then, they'll build a few production prototypes to do the final certification.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Just? I'm pretty sure it's been there at least since they've been building anything. The flying prototype did come from London, ON. I'm guessing it's simply a matter of paper design vs. production tooling design and the switch was planned all along. I'm also guessing that all of the jets will be built in Canada. Currently, all of the Lyc-powered DA40's are produced in Canada (TDI's built and sold in Europe).

If they follow the pattern that everyone else does, this first prototype is "non-conforming" and simply being used to shake out the design. Then, they'll build a few production prototypes to do the final certification.
Click to expand...

The switch has been made within about the last year. Whether or not that's "just" is a matter of opinion, I suppose. I believe that all of the production will be in Canada.

You seem to imply the paper design was all done in Austria, and now all they have to do is throw together some tools and away they go. The design team needs to be involved from the initial design phase all the way untill the first few have left the factory and are in service. I'm sure there is a great deal of fundamental "paper" engineering still to be done. Switching locations in the middle of that process is sure to cause disruption, whether it was planned or not. How much disruption will depend on how well they make the switch. I have no idea whether the switch was part of the original plan or if it was in the original schedule. However, since we're well past the original schedule's delivery date, I think that's a moot point.

Anyways, I think we're mostly discussing semantics. I wouldn't put much money on them meeting their current promised date, but I don't think they'll miss it by too much. Either way, I think it'll be a very nice product.

Chris
 
cwyckham said:
I wouldn't put much money on them meeting their current promised date, but I don't think they'll miss it by too much.
Click to expand...

The latest info: At AOPA Expo this weekend, they said they are planning on delivering 50 D-Jets by the end of 2008. So, they must be making decent progress. Production of S/N's 2 and 3, conforming flight test aircraft, will begin within a few weeks.

What I find odd is that their web site talks about how they're going to first certify the "D-Jet Executive" model with all the bells and whistles and fancy interior, and certify the more bare-bones training oriented version second. However, they also said that ATP will be getting some of the first aircraft produced. :dunno:
 
CapeCodJay said:
Greetings everyone!

As many of you know, my plane was destroyed last weekend. :(

So, this got me to thinking...I orig. purchased the plane to build time and ratings on to one day fly as a career. The thought I am having is using my insurance money to join ATP for their following program;
Click to expand...
Well, if I would be looking at one of these programs for gaining quals for an airline or corp job and had all the other prerequs, ATP is who I'd do it with. The people I know who used them were satisfied they got what they contracted for, and these are guys who hold corporate gigs. Being in an intensive training environment hold benefits as well if you are able to structure your life for it, and it sounds like you are at a point where this has become primary.... If you are pleased with the deal they are offering and it gets you to 1200 with at least 200 multi, well, it'll get you to where you can have a job thatr won't pay your rent. However, you mentioned you already have bacheloriate or beyond quals, so I would see what kind of deal I could work with them for a 737 type rating, that way you can apply to Southwest, the happiest airline crews I know of.
 
HPNFlyGirl said:
Why not try Delta Connection Academy?
Click to expand...

Heard a lot less favorable things about DCA - and everything with ATP is gaurenteed. ie What they say you get, you get...What they tell you it costs, it costs.
My first flight instructor attended DCA and wont send any of his students there. I have a lot of respect for him and his journey in aviation. So that is where I learned about ATP and decided to go with them.

Just my .02
 
Henning said:
Well, if I would be looking at one of these programs for gaining quals for an airline or corp job and had all the other prerequs, ATP is who I'd do it with. The people I know who used them were satisfied they got what they contracted for, and these are guys who hold corporate gigs. Being in an intensive training environment hold benefits as well if you are able to structure your life for it, and it sounds like you are at a point where this has become primary.... If you are pleased with the deal they are offering and it gets you to 1200 with at least 200 multi, well, it'll get you to where you can have a job thatr won't pay your rent. However, you mentioned you already have bacheloriate or beyond quals, so I would see what kind of deal I could work with them for a 737 type rating, that way you can apply to Southwest, the happiest airline crews I know of.
Click to expand...

Southwest wants the ATP, unrestricted type rating, and 2500 hours of turbine PIC time at the moment. Of course, that's the base screening requirement, and if you have connections or can sell yourself in other ways, you may be able to get by with less time. Right now however there are plenty of furloughed pilots with serious 121 turbine time looking for work at the majors.

Regional is a better market, but of course, the pay sucks like a Dyson.
 
TMetzinger said:
Regional is a better market, but of course, the pay sucks like a Dyson.
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LOL now that belongs in the Quote section of the board :yes:
 
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