ATC User Fees

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by poadeleted4, Jun 13, 2005.

  1. poadeleted4

    poadeleted4 Pre-Flight

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    If ATC is converted to a user fee based system, how will ATC verify that the airplane/pilot that is requesting ATC service is actually the airplane/pilot he/she says they are? Talk about a new identity theft opportunity. N #'s are as identifiable and individual as your SS#.
    Hmmmmm.............
    Gary
    N#####:dunno:
     
  2. bbchien

    bbchien Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yeah. Your account is advertised with foot high lettering.....
     
  3. Richard

    Richard Final Approach

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    ...featuring rotating numbers/letters.
     
  4. Big Bird

    Big Bird Pre-Flight

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    Gary, how does ATC confirm identity now? :dunno:
     
  5. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Mandatory Mode-S. It is (becoming) mandatory in Europe.....
     
  6. Big Bird

    Big Bird Pre-Flight

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    Yes, but Mode S is NOT mandatory here. So, the question still lies; how does ATC positively ident AC now?
     
  7. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Visually.

    But if ATC does go the "pay" route, you can bet that Mode S becomes mandatory. It might be done for "security" reasons before that.
     
  8. Big Bird

    Big Bird Pre-Flight

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    Well, I don't get what you are saying. When I'm at 16,000 on an IFR flight plan, ATC "knows" who I am, where I am, and where I am going. They do not have a "visual".

    IF is a mighty big word. And, why would Mode S offer different info to ATC the I don't provide already?

    "Security" is another ballgame entirely.
     
  9. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Let me help out:

    N116RC
    Serial Number 14061 Type Registration Co-Owner
    Manufacturer Name ROCKWELL INTERNATIONAL Certificate Issue Date 03/13/2003
    Model 114 Status Valid
    Type Aircraft Fixed Wing Single-Engine Type Engine Reciprocating
    Pending Number Change None Dealer No
    Date Change Authorized None Mode S Code 50041767
    MFR Year 1976 Fractional Owner NO
     
  10. 4CornerFlyer

    4CornerFlyer Pre-takeoff checklist

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    ATC only "knows" whatever information you filed in the flight plan. While it is illegal to use anything other than your registration number, explain to me how ATC would know who you really are, if you depart a non-towered airport.

    The suggestion is that if user fees come, people could just make up a number, and the rebuttal is that mandatory mode-S, which sends a unique identifier for each aircraft, would be the government's solution.

    Jon
     
  11. poadeleted4

    poadeleted4 Pre-Flight

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    Precisely,
    If I fly from an uncontrolled field to another uncontrolled field, there is no way for ATC to positively identify me without the use of Mode S. I can file an Instrument Flight Plan with FSS and receive a clearance from ATC with just one phone call. Nothing is verified. Everything is put into the system based on one thing, the N#!!!

    Then, what happens if my Mode S Garmin 330 Transponder is stolen and used in another aircraft? Man, this is a huge bucket-o-worms! I certainly hope Congress considers all of the scenarios before they decide to change the way GA does business. Historically, we have gotten screwed. This is the beginning of the end for Instrument/GA if Congress allows ATC user based fees to be implemented in the U.S. I will avoid the system, I will not activate my transponder and I will remain clear of all controlled airspace. If I stay low enough(but above FAA minimums, of course) they will never see me.
    Gary
    N#####
     
  12. gismo

    gismo Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'll bet Mode S is easy to spoof. No doubt, some hacker will be selling illegal transponder mods that let you dial in whatever ID you want.

    Personally I suspect that if ATC user fees become a reality, we will have to sign up for an ATC account complete with user ID and password that go on the flight plan form. That's probably not too secure either especially if you air-file. If they charge to the N number, FBO's are going to end up being the ones to chase down the pilots who incur the fees on the rental fleet.
     
  13. inav8r

    inav8r Line Up and Wait

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    *IF* they do implement this, I would hope that at first it's a per year / per plane fee (similar to NAV Canada's) and not a PER OPERATION fee...
     
  14. rfbdorf

    rfbdorf Pre-Flight

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    Here comes Mode S for everyone. It will be billed as essential for the war against terrorism, so you're automatically an enemy of the king if you disagree.
    - Richard
     
  15. Big Bird

    Big Bird Pre-Flight

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    Thanks, Jon. I still have trouble connecting "User fees" with mandatory Mode S. I don't have Mode S, yet NavCanada somehow manages to get my quarterly fees.

    Is what has been suggested here is that ATC will require Mode S in order to bill the correct pilot for services? Seems like an upside down way to do it.
     
  16. arranna

    arranna Guest

    The answer is simple.

    ATC is unable to know who is using the sysytem and who is not.

    Therefore,

    All people who own planes will be charged a user fee, whether they use the system or not.
     
  17. Ken Ibold

    Ken Ibold Final Approach

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    ... and they'll fund it through a fuel tax ...

    Bureaucracy comes full circle.
     
  18. TangoWhiskey

    TangoWhiskey Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Did everybody else get the nice "please send money" letter from Boyer re: user fees?

    I wish he had done more than ask for PAC funds... why not give us addresses and names to write to, of those involved in these committees? If they (the politicians) got several hundred thousand letters from us in addition to the fine work AOPA does, they might listen. Or, have they already made up their mind and the rest is just a "show" to say they had hearings on it?
     
  19. corjulo

    corjulo Line Up and Wait

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    Letters from constituents are important but an organized letter writing campaign can backfire. A PAC with money to spend is probably the best hope we have. Lets face it, few pilots are going to change party vote because of ATC users fee. Your congressman know that. Ironic as it is the more polarized we become the less they need to do to keep us happy.

    But a special interest with money to donate is far more likely to get results. I sent Boyer some money, wish I had more to send.
     
  20. BruceAir

    BruceAir Pre-takeoff checklist

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  21. anonn

    anonn Ejection Handle Pulled

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    The Mode S address is wired into the connector and read at power up. Stealing the transponder and putting in another aircraft would result in that aircraft's address being sent, not the address from the original aircraft.
     
  22. Ghery

    Ghery Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Of course, Mode S assumes (dangerous word) that the a/c has an electrical system from which to power it in the first place...
     
  23. Richard

    Richard Final Approach

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    RE: polarization. The rightful name is "Divide and Conquer". Pretty much describes what we have today.

    While I do not posess any legitimate claims of genius, I saw this coming 20 years ago. The Fourth Estate has done much to foment the current stae of affairs. When any given poll shows 48-52% with +/- 3% margin you know Operation Us Vs Them has been accomplished.
     
  24. Big Bird

    Big Bird Pre-Flight

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    What comes immediately to my mind is; "I'm a uniter, not a divider". :(