ATC Proposed - same route

WannFly

WannFly

Final Approach
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Priyo
So i filed for a XC tonight - Route: KFAR to KGFK via PAWSS V181.JOCOR
got a ATC proposed routing for exact same route and altitude i had asked for.

I guess my question is ... i was expecting something like ATC Accepted (I am using Garmin Pilot) instead of Proposed and proposing exactly what i asked for.

same thing happened for the return trip
 
Honestly it’s just computer programming glitches.

Sometimes they say “cleared as filed” sometimes the computer spits out exactly what you asked for like it’s some new thing.

Just bad programming. Chasing down “why” will less to madness. :)
 
lol.. ok i will let it go then. looking at the email garmin sent me after filing, i see it has added DCT to the route before and after ... so that may be it, but Garmin pilot do not show those

DCT PAWSS V181 JOCOR DCT
 
WannFly said:
lol.. ok i will let it go then. looking at the email garmin sent me after filing, i see it has added DCT to the route before and after ... so that may be it, but Garmin pilot do not show those

DCT PAWSS V181 JOCOR DCT
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Yeah it’s usually crap like that. LOL. Seriously.

Of course that route means you gotta go there first before on-course, but then you go out to the real world and they vector your butt where they want you anyway... :)
 
denverpilot said:
but then you go out to the real world and they vector your butt where they want you anyway.
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i fully expect this today ... usually there are about 30 planes around grand forks at any given point of time
 
this is going to be fun tonight

upload_2020-11-10_15-55-57.png
 
Interesting place, GFK... The only times I have been there have been in a Malibu on IFR flight plans. Once during a CAVU weekday. Was like a beehive with all the green and white airplanes buzzing around there.
 
You propose the route in your flight plan. With ForeFlight, one gets a successful indication meaning that the flight plan was received by the ForeFlight server. ForeFlight transmits the flight plan to the relevant ATC center. If the center computer accepts the flight plan, they send an acknowledgement message to ForeFlight who in turn passes the acknowledgement message to the pilot. When you receive the acknowledgement message you know the ATC computer has accepted your flight plan. ForeFlight then monitors an FAA feed for the assigned route being forwarded to the departure clearance controller. When one is seen, ForeFlight sends an expected route message to the pilot if it is different than the filed route. Usually that is the same route the controller will issue in the clearance, but not always.
 
Which brings up a question for me. Sounds like you are filing hours in advance of your flight, is there any advantage in doing that? I usually file less than 1/2 hour from just because of the changes mentioned above.
 
Salty said:
Which brings up a question for me. Sounds like you are filing hours in advance of your flight, is there any advantage in doing that? I usually file less than 1/2 hour from just because of the changes mentioned above.
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I'm still relatively new to the game, but I've filed the night before and I've filed 5 minutes before. I use Foreflight and it has never been a problem, nor do I think it really matters. What makes it interesting is full route clearance changes a few minutes after you take off, followed by another full route change about 10 minutes later. This happened to me in CT for a flight over NYC. Always make sure you understand what they want, make them repeat it as many times as it takes for you to understand it, but usually it's not a big deal.
 
Salty said:
Which brings up a question for me. Sounds like you are filing hours in advance of your flight, is there any advantage in doing that? I usually file less than 1/2 hour from just because of the changes mentioned above.
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Don’t know if there is any advantage or not, thought will give them ample time to change their mind as many times as they want
 
Salty said:
Which brings up a question for me. Sounds like you are filing hours in advance of your flight, is there any advantage in doing that? I usually file less than 1/2 hour from just because of the changes mentioned above.
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I’ve never filed the day before ever, I don’t think.

Wait. I take that back. I had to use the IFR slot time reservation system to depart Oshkosh once. So the time had to be reserved but not the full plan filed yet.

Otherwise I usually didn’t have time anyway, even if I had planned the route way in advance, I still usually wanted a last look at weather before committing to the flights.

Sometimes filed a couple hours ahead, vast majority filed after arriving at the airport and making sure the airplane looked generally ready to go. Occasionally filed super late like minimum time to file before departure. A bell curve, I suppose.

Those fast ones were usually between places I usually go and weather was just marginal. One of those “why bother messing with this VFR?” kind of last minute decisions. File it and you can just bop around in this silly low scattered stuff or climb above it. Longer trips with more complex weather usually weren’t done last minute.

Just my two cents. Anybody flying something more capable can probably file later if they fly weather all the time and know their ship’s limitations well. Example: FIKI. I’m probably never going to not be a bit nervous around potential icing conditions. Just don’t see enough of it and don’t feel like testing the stories that a 182 will carry a lot more than you think it will. Ha. I know it will. But not going to push that in questionable conditions to accidentally find out.

Just not an area where I have enough experience. Have seen ice on the airframe before, yes. Comfortable with the stuff midwesterners see all winter, not truly. So filing around weather junk like that, probably in no hurry. Ha. I’d rather plan a mountain flight than a Midwestern weather mess with icing hiding in it. :) (Of course due to the altitudes involved, my airplane isn’t a great option for mountain IFR either... nope....)

So yeah. Not a ton of super early filing and not a ton of super late either. For whatever it’s worth.
 
denverpilot said:
Example: FIKI. I’m probably never going to not be a bit nervous around potential icing conditions. Just don’t see enough of it and don’t feel like testing the stories that a 182 will carry a lot more than you think it will. Ha. I know it will. But not going to push that in questionable conditions to accidentally find out.
.
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I live in Michigan and just got my IFR a few months ago. I'm scared to death of ICE! My IMC flying is probably done till May around here. Too many stories around the FBO of guys touching down at 95kt in a 182 with an inch of ice! No thanks! I'll be a foggle / safety pilot guy to stay current this winter. My CFII keeps telling me that I'll be fine as long as I have an out. "As long as you know the temp, tops and celling you'll be fine." Well, I think the best out, is to not go.. I fly for fun and to go places, I don't think picking up an inch of ice sounds fun and I can drive if needed.

In my limited experience I have always filed at the FBO, after looking everything over and making the final go - no go.
 
I remember my first IFR XC. Filed a route that seemed logical (and had issued before). Waiting to takeoff I was given a clearance with a different route. No problem, plug that in to the 480. Takeoff, contact departure. "Advise when ready to copy. We have a new route for you." Ok. Copy clearance. "Hey, this is what I filed."

My favorite is Roanoake approach which is famous for asking me if I was ready to copy and then just clearing direct to the destination. I needed to copy that?

Of course, I filed from OWD to V3 and V3 all the way down home one day. Looked logical and goes way west of the NYC metroplex. It got accepted and burped back as the route from ATC.
I'm sitting on the ramp at OWD to get my clearance and apparently that's what came out on the strip as the controller starts off:

"Navion 5372K is cleared to CJR via ... oh hell.. that won't work, hold on... " (a minute passes) "got your pencil ready?" and got the clearance I've come to expect now, zig zagging over a few fixes in Connecticut, down the middle of Long Island Sound, intercept some JFK radial, fly over JFK and pick up V16.
 
Usually, I get an email from Garmin saying my flight plan has be rogered by ARTCC if there are no changes.
 
N1120A said:
Usually, I get an email from Garmin saying my flight plan has be rogered by ARTCC if there are no changes.
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That's pretty much all EFBs and a number of websites at this point. For many it's a Leidos based service. (And no, you don't have to go to Leidos in most cases; you authorize through the app).
upload_2020-12-11_8-5-14.png
 
N1120A said:
Usually, I get an email from Garmin saying my flight plan has be rogered by ARTCC if there are no changes.
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Rogered or Acknowledged mean the same thing, that the ATC computer, ERAM, is in receipt of your flight plan. Usually the filed route will be the default, but it may be changed and in some cases multiple times by ATC or its computer. The changes in route are able to be monitored and can be sent to the EFB as an "expected route". The expected route is never a clearance and the controller may change it at the last moment and issue you a totally different route or clear you as filed. Cleared as filed means only one thing, you are cleared by the route you initially filed (or you subsequently amended) and is not the expected route if it is other than what you filed.
 
John Collins said:
.... Cleared as filed means only one thing, you are cleared by the route you initially filed (or you subsequently amended) and is not the expected route if it is other than what you filed.
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Yes. But it should be noted that if you amend the route or destination you are not allowed to ‘accept’ cleared as filed. AIM 5-2-6 2.

2. That a pilot will not accept an abbreviated
clearance if the route or destination of a flight plan
filed with ATC has been changed by the pilot or the
company or the operations officer before departure.
 
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N1120A said:
Usually, I get an email from Garmin saying my flight plan has be rogered by ARTCC if there are no changes.
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That just means that the flight plan made syntactic sense to the computer. I can file "OWD V3 MRB" and the computer will take it just fine as V3 runs right through both points. I even got it parroted back once as the proposed route. It must have even popped out on the strip at OWD tower because the controller started to read it to me and then said, "Hold on, that's not going to work. Got your pencil ready?" and then read me what I should have expected, zig-zag through some fixes in Connecticut, down the middle of Long Island Sound and then over JFK to pick up V16.
 
When I get a change in my clearance, I would love to know why. Most of the time it makes no sense to me. Last time I filed, 5 minutes into the air, I get a change. At the end of the brief, I realized that I was being sent way out of my way. I cancelLed IFR (it was VMC). Went on my merry way. They win.
 
Morgan3820 said:
When I get a change in my clearance, I would love to know why.
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Ask. The answer often has to do with traffic, especially approach/departure corridors near Class B and busier Class C. Sometimes the controller you are talking to doesn't know because it's no their sector but other times they will give you the answer.

Those who fly the V1/V16 corridor in the northeast are probably familiar with getting an altitude change abeam the PHL Class B. First time I flew that route southbound, my friend who had done it many times before told me expect it. When it came I had my suspicions but I asked the controller why. Sure enough, it was the was they were landing at PHL.

On the Carolina coast, most likely reason I can think of for a route change is all that funny airspace with the "R." And it can work both ways. Once coming out of Ocracoke, I filed and received an expected clearance around the restricted areas. When I called for my clearance from Cherry Point - the controlling agency - my clearance was straight through.
 
Don’t mind a change to the flight plan I filed for,just wish they would give it to me on the ground. Just after take off tends to increase your work load.
 
frfly172 said:
Don’t mind a change to the flight plan I filed for,just wish they would give it to me on the ground. Just after take off tends to increase your work load.
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Exactly, I understand if circumstances change but in my recent case, I was cleared ‘as filed’ not ten minutes before. My filed route was over eastern shore of Maryland. Not a lot going on there. The amended clearance was over Baltimore, into the Class B and SFRA??? I was planning to be well clear of any R places.
 
Configuration changes at big airports change traffic flows all over the surrounding airspace. If the local “big” airport was landing in one direction, you’d get a certain route....then 5 minutes later the supervisor comes around and tells everyone “we are switching to xxx configuration” then a bunch of those routes aren’t compatible anymore. Throw in a bunch of big airports relatively close together, and things will change a lot.
 
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