ATC forgot about me - Would you ASRS?

CJones

CJones

Final Approach
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uHaveNoIdea
Per this flight....

Climbing out of CVB, I called up SAT approach. They were fairly busy and took a few minutes (I had to level off my climb to stay below OVC deck) to get my clearance back to me. Squawk XXXX. Radar contact. Cleared as filed and up to 9000'. Readback to them. Readback acknowledged. Controller shift change. The 'new' voice never talked to us. Several IR training flights were up doing holds, approaches, etc. into Stinson, SAT, and CVB. The controller was doing a great job of keeping all those bugsmashers from becoming planesmashers all while working with them on their 'training' requests (block clearances, numerous holds, etc.) After about an hour of hearing all their clearances, I started to have the gut feeling that he had forgotten about us - it was a LONG time to stay with an approach controller, especially since we were heading north towards Gray Approach's airspace.

Eventually, the controllers transmissions were getting weak and I had to turn the squelch down to be able to hear all of his transmissions. I called him up to rattle his cage: "Approach, N5274S. Your radio is breaking up, do you have another freq for us?" (I was trying to present it in a nice way "Hey you, did you forget about us!?") No reply. Try again. No reply. Tried one of the low-level bugsmashers for a message relay. No reply. Finally heard another IR bugsmasher coming out of SAT with a strong transmission. Asked them to relay a message. "5274S, IFR over Lampassas at 9000'. I think you missed our handoff." The controllers reply was "Try Fort Worth Center on XXX.XX for that area." I thank the bugsmasher for their help and call up Ft. Worth Center. "Fort Worth, 5274S level 9000' over Lampassas". Their reply "5274S, we've been looking for you. XXX altimiter XXXX." A few minutes later, we were handed to Gray Approach and we were 'back on the scope'.

The Fort Worth controller didn't seem irritated or anything, and we were VMC on top of a OVC - becoming BR - becoming SCT layer, so traffic avoidance was possible by our Mk. 2 Eyeballs. BUT, if we had been IMC, and skirting along on our merry way, we would have had no way to "see-and-avoid". Of course, we would have been visible on other controller's scopes and they could have vectored around us, but still....

Would you file an ASRS for this? I don't think the controller was incompetent - he got busy working 3-4 IR training flights, in IMC, in close proximity to each other and probably got his scope zoomed in to watch them and simply forgot about his only 'cruise' IFR flight which he never talked to b/c the previous controller provided the clearance, etc.

What say ye, gentlefolk?
 
File the ASRS. They'll look into it as it does sound like as if some sort of procedural misstep as the controllers changed occurred. It does not sound as if you are in trouble. But looking at why a process step did not work is a benefit to all.

You could also contact the facility manager and raise the issue in a non-threatening manner so that you understand why this occured and how to prevent it from occuring in the future.
 
That's what ASRS is for -- identifying problems that may be systemic so they can be solved.
 
Chris, were you monitoring 121.5? If FW Center says they were "looking for you", I just wondered if they'd tried you on Guard.
Also, if you have a 430/530, the database has the nearest Center frequency for whereever you are. You can always use that if you've lost contact.
As far as an ASRS is concerned, I suppose it wouldn't hurt. Nor sure if it would help either. Listening on the radio it seems that missing handoffs occurs quite frequently. Pilots and ATC deal with it, just as you did in this case.
 
yes sir, consider it payback for our future "violations." If the FAA wants to play that way, we don't really have a choice right? Might as well play back and be safe while we do it.



...right?
 
Do both - file the ASRS, and call the facility. Bring it up with the QA person and express your concern that maybe you missed something during the controller change. These guys are happy to hear from concerned pilots.
 
ajalali said:
yes sir, consider it payback for our future "violations." If the FAA wants to play that way, we don't really have a choice right? Might as well play back and be safe while we do it.



...right?
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I would say "wrong." I think I must fly in a differnt ATC system than some other posters. All the controllers I've talked to in the air and on the ground have been as accomodating as possible, in general friendly, professional, and in no cases adversarial. We (pilots/ATC) are in this together.

I don't know if the FAA will or won't try to force controllers to report violations or not and I don't know how many controllers will cooperate if they do (and neither does anyone else on this board). However, even if this does start happening, I will not contribute to a downward spiral.
 
Lance F said:
Chris, were you monitoring 121.5? If FW Center says they were "looking for you", I just wondered if they'd tried you on Guard.
Also, if you have a 430/530, the database has the nearest Center frequency for whereever you are. You can always use that if you've lost contact.
As far as an ASRS is concerned, I suppose it wouldn't hurt. Nor sure if it would help either. Listening on the radio it seems that missing handoffs occurs quite frequently. Pilots and ATC deal with it, just as you did in this case.
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Good point. You caught me -- I didn't have 121.5 in Com2. :(

We had the chart out and I had the Forth Worth Center's freq in front of me, and I would have gone to that if I hadn't been able to get in touch with the Approach Controller (I was in the process of dialing it in when I heard a 'strong' transmission of the a/c coming out of SAT that I used for message relay), but I really wanted to get the App. controller's attention so that he realized that he had forgotten about me as well.
 
No reason not to do the paperwork. I've had that happen a few times where they forget a handoff or forget to give a turn, and we filled out paperwork every time. Just because it turned out ok doesn't mean it's not a problem. Something non-standard happened, and it would be to the bennefit of everyone to discuss the incident and figure out what went wrong.
 
Yes, file ASRS.

When I flew out of SAT headed for AUS last week, I advised Clearance my initial heading would be 030. I take off on Runway 3 and during climbout am passed to the departure frequency given in the clearance. I continue on runway heading as directed and maintain that for a good three or four miles out with no plan to deviate given winds. I'm then handed off to another departure controller. The last controller asked my destination and I respond "Austin." "Did you tell Clearance you were going to Austin?" I replied, "I specified initial heading of 030 which takes me toward Austin." The remaining flight uneventful.

It wasn't as serious as a lost hand-off but a second indicator they are too busy to catch every detail. This would include the Clearance Delivery folks.
 
Lance F said:
I would say "wrong." I think I must fly in a differnt ATC system than some other posters. All the controllers I've talked to in the air and on the ground have been as accomodating as possible, in general friendly, professional, and in no cases adversarial. We (pilots/ATC) are in this together.

I don't know if the FAA will or won't try to force controllers to report violations or not and I don't know how many controllers will cooperate if they do (and neither does anyone else on this board). However, even if this does start happening, I will not contribute to a downward spiral.
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Yeah, the whole "violate all pilot error" thing was what i was getting at.


buuuut i guess my sarcasm was missed, we're totally in this together, and I've only had one bad controller experience, and that was with Boston Approach. They were busy though, so it's ok.


But yeah i'd still file the report.
 
Detroit Approach forgot about me once. I gave em a call, no response. Called ZOB, they immediately handed me to CLE. No controller change in DTW. He just forgot. I didn't file the ASRS.
 
I would never tell anyone not to file an ASRS form, but I have been forgotten a number of times and never did. I've also never considered contacting the facility. I'm a little lazy in that regard, though. :dunno:
 
silver-eagle said:
The good news is you can file ONLINE. So while you're doing your postflight review, whip out your pocket cellphone/pda/smartphone and file away. Anonymous postings guarenteed!
http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/electronic.html
Click to expand...

Yeah, I found that earlier, and was all ready and set to file it online.......
..... and the link is INOP. :(

Edit: Apparently it's a "security ticket" issue that FireFox doesn't like. IE gives the option of bypassing it.
 
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KennyFlys said:
Yes, file ASRS.

When I flew out of SAT headed for AUS last week, I advised Clearance my initial heading would be 030. I take off on Runway 3 and during climbout am passed to the departure frequency given in the clearance. I continue on runway heading as directed and maintain that for a good three or four miles out with no plan to deviate given winds. I'm then handed off to another departure controller. The last controller asked my destination and I respond "Austin." "Did you tell Clearance you were going to Austin?" I replied, "I specified initial heading of 030 which takes me toward Austin." The remaining flight uneventful.

It wasn't as serious as a lost hand-off but a second indicator they are too busy to catch every detail. This would include the Clearance Delivery folks.
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FWIW, SAT was trying to do you a favor in setting up flight following & coordination with Austin. The tracon areas overlap - San Marcos airport is in Austin's jurisdiction, while the MARCS intersction that overlies San Marcos airport is SAT's jurisdiction. If you're 30-degree heading was taking you toward Austin's airspace it was, at the same time, taking you pretty much right toward San Marcos, too. Ergo, the destination question becomes important (also that they can alert AUS traffic to the inbound). It also helps SAT out because they can better identify/control folks on the MARCS arrival.

No harm was done, obviously, but a few extra words would have helped 'em out.
 
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wsuffa said:
FWIW, SAT was trying to do you a favor in setting up flight following & coordination with Austin. The tracon areas overlap - San Marcos airport is in Austin's jurisdiction, while the MARCS intersction that overlies San Marcos airport is SAT's jurisdiction. If you're 30-degree heading was taking you toward Austin's airspace it was, at the same time, taking you pretty much right toward San Marcos, too. Ergo, the destination question becomes important (also that they can alert AUS traffic to the inbound). It also helps SAT out because they can better identify/control folks on the MARCS arrival.

No harm was done, obviously, but a few extra words would have helped 'em out.
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Bill, I think Chris was IFR on that flight. I've been dropped many times when getting Flight Following. No big deal.

Getting dropped when IFR is a bit more of a deal, but it happens often. I'd say I have that happen about every fourth flight, somewhere in the country. I just use the 396 database, punch in NEAREST, find the ATC facility near me, and call 'em up.

I also monitor 121.5 on comm 2 all the time. These days, I think it's crazy not to. Might be the Secret Service calling -- seriously.
 
Tom Gresham said:
Bill, I think Chris was IFR on that flight. I've been dropped many times when getting Flight Following. No big deal.

Getting dropped when IFR is a bit more of a deal, but it happens often. I'd say I have that happen about every fourth flight, somewhere in the country. I just use the 396 database, punch in NEAREST, find the ATC facility near me, and call 'em up.

I also monitor 121.5 on comm 2 all the time. These days, I think it's crazy not to. Might be the Secret Service calling -- seriously.
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Chris was IFR.

I was referring to Kenny's comment about SAT departure on his quick flight up to Austin.

If I'm not talking to ATC, I do try and monitor 121.5... unfortunately my #2 is programmed to open squelch any time it's tuned to 121.5, and that's a hardwire setting inside.
 
EdFred said:
Detroit Approach forgot about me once. I gave em a call, no response. Called ZOB, they immediately handed me to CLE. No controller change in DTW. He just forgot. I didn't file the ASRS.
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I wouldn't file an ASRS.
 
wsuffa said:
Chris was IFR.

I was referring to Kenny's comment about SAT departure on his quick flight up to Austin.

If I'm not talking to ATC, I do try and monitor 121.5... unfortunately my #2 is programmed to open squelch any time it's tuned to 121.5, and that's a hardwire setting inside.
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Ooops. I lost the Flik.

I bet an avionics shop could fix that "feature" for you. Especially when flying VFR, I want to monitor "guard" all the time. Never know when a TFR has popped up on your route, and the FAA, or Secret Service, or someone is calling you in the blind on 121.5.
 
Tom Gresham said:
Never know when a TFR has popped up on your route, and the FAA, or Secret Service, or someone is calling you in the blind on 121.5.
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and it's fun (in a sadistic way) hearing someone else getting BUSTED.
 
Tom Gresham said:
Ooops. I lost the Flik.

I bet an avionics shop could fix that "feature" for you. Especially when flying VFR, I want to monitor "guard" all the time. Never know when a TFR has popped up on your route, and the FAA, or Secret Service, or someone is calling you in the blind on 121.5.
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Tom, I bet Bill has a Narco 12D for his No. 2 comm, and that is a hard-wired "feature," which I (have a 12D) do not understand, but which is documented.

And yes, Lance, there is a certain compelling fascination to listening as pilots bust the TFR at P49 (President Bush's ranch) when it is expanded, but it is like seeing a bad car wreck- you don't gloat, you just hope it's never you and try to learn from the other poor sap's mistake.
 
wsuffa said:
FWIW, SAT was trying to do you a favor in setting up flight following & coordination with Austin. The tracon areas overlap - San Marcos airport is in Austin's jurisdiction, while the MARCS intersction that overlies San Marcos airport is SAT's jurisdiction. If you're 30-degree heading was taking you toward Austin's airspace it was, at the same time, taking you pretty much right toward San Marcos, too. Ergo, the destination question becomes important (also that they can alert AUS traffic to the inbound). It also helps SAT out because they can better identify/control folks on the MARCS arrival.

No harm was done, obviously, but a few extra words would have helped 'em out.
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Thanks, Bill.

After the flight completed and I saw what they were doing in the whole picture, I had a better idea how I could have been clearer. I didn't know about the MARCS Arrival, however. I was down at 2500 so I didn't think I'd be high enough to cause any issue to most IFR traffic. I'll definitely be more descriptive on information to Clearance from here forward.
 
Tom Gresham said:
Ooops. I lost the Flik.

I bet an avionics shop could fix that "feature" for you. Especially when flying VFR, I want to monitor "guard" all the time. Never know when a TFR has popped up on your route, and the FAA, or Secret Service, or someone is calling you in the blind on 121.5.
Click to expand...

SCCutler said:
Tom, I bet Bill has a Narco 12D for his No. 2 comm, and that is a hard-wired "feature," which I (have a 12D) do not understand, but which is documented.

And yes, Lance, there is a certain compelling fascination to listening as pilots bust the TFR at P49 (President Bush's ranch) when it is expanded, but it is like seeing a bad car wreck- you don't gloat, you just hope it's never you and try to learn from the other poor sap's mistake.
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Close, it's a Narco NCS-812 (essentially a 12E with DME built in). I kinda like having the DME... I've been considering replacing the 812 and the Trimble GPS with another Garmin, so it's not really been worth the money to "fix" the problem. It's probably jsut a jumper inside.

Having said all that, now that I'm in the DC area as opposed to Texas it's more urgent to do something.
 
Lance F said:
I would say "wrong." I think I must fly in a differnt ATC system than some other posters. All the controllers I've talked to in the air and on the ground have been as accomodating as possible, in general friendly, professional, and in no cases adversarial. We (pilots/ATC) are in this together.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with Lance here. I've come across ATC controllers who were busy, and it showed that they were stressed in their tone of voice, but I haven't once come across one who was genuinely unaccomodating or otherwise mean.

I've heard a number of pilots call up center if they think they've been forgotten, or if they're wondering if the radios still work. This happens a good amount when I'm flying through western/central PA where there's not a lot of traffic, and you can easily go 30 minutes without hearing a word from center, or anyone else. One night the following conversation occurred:

KA: "Cleveland Center, King Air xxxx"
Center: "King Air xxxx, Center"
KA: "Just making sure you're still there, it's awful quiet out tonight"
Center: "Yeah, sure is."
Me: "62G agrees"
Center: *laughs*

Obviously, you knew that center was still there. What makes me wonder about this is that the hand-off seems to have been made, since when you changed frequencies they were "looking for you" but nobody told you to change frequencies.

I'd be curious as to what actually happened, but I think I'd probably start by trying to find the agency and just express the problem as someone who was concerned. I know if I was a controller and I found out that I had forgotten someone, I'd be mortified and that by itself would be plenty to get me to pay more attention. I suspect most of them are the same, and this guy was obviously busy. I suppose I don't see a reason to try to ensure someone gets punished for what seems to have been an honest mistake, but he should be made aware of it.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Obviously, you knew that center was still there. What makes me wonder about this is that the hand-off seems to have been made, since when you changed frequencies they were "looking for you" but nobody told you to change frequencies.

I'd be curious as to what actually happened, but I think I'd probably start by trying to find the agency and just express the problem as someone who was concerned. I know if I was a controller and I found out that I had forgotten someone, I'd be mortified and that by itself would be plenty to get me to pay more attention. I suspect most of them are the same, and this guy was obviously busy. I suppose I don't see a reason to try to ensure someone gets punished for what seems to have been an honest mistake, but he should be made aware of it.
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Exactly. I'm not trying to 'bring the hammer down' on someone. He was doing his job and possibly got distracted or didn't receive the info from the guy he was relieving. That's why I kept trying to make contact with him rather than just dialing up the nearest Center freq - if I make contact and he gets the message directly from me, he'll surely have a "Whoops. Don't do that again" moment as opposed to a supervisor coming in and chewing him b/c "a ticked off pilot called in to complain".

I went ahead and filed the ASRS, but I made sure in my comments to add that the controller was doing an excellent job of handling all the IR training going on in the area and that there was a shift change where information could have been dropped. I tried to make sure it didn't look like I was trying to make him look incompetent or anything, I just simply wanted to alert them to a possible weak point in the system.

As for the "are you there?" comments - it's very similar here in Iowa. If you're flying along with ZMP, things can get very quiet between Cedar Rapids and Des Moines. I've had 10 minute conversations about weather or airplanes with controllers when flying late at night in the area. :yes: Believe it or not, controllers are humans just like us! :hairraise:
 
yea ive been forgotten about before too. wont hurt to file the ASRS. no harm no foul, guy was just busy.
 
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