ATC Error @ Boston Logan

T

tobnpr

Pre-takeoff checklist
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tobnpr
tobnpr said:
www.foxnews.com

Air traffic control audio captures tense moment two planes nearly collided at Boston Logan Airport

On Saturday, a Delta Air Lines plane and an American Airline plane came within 300 feet of colliding on the runway of Boston Logan International Airport.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com

These seem to be happening waaay too frequently.
What I'd love to know, is how was the onboard system for detecting other air traffic, able to determine that an aircraft on the ground represented a collision hazard?
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How did you come to the conclusion that an on board system detected a collision hazard?
 
dmspilot said:
How did you come to the conclusion that an on board system detected a collision hazard?
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It states it in the article...
Just above the photo of the Netjets flaming wreckage (guess they figured they needed to put a photo of a completely unrelated mishap in there for some reason).

Yeah, I too thought that it was eyeballs. More incorrect reporting?
 
Controller failure mainly but why on earth did the American flight taking off sit on the runway for about a minute before rolling after takeoff clearance? That’s a long time at a moderately busy class D, let alone at Logan. Good on Delta pilots for seeing it and going around
 
dmspilot said:
It doesn't.
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The article I read from the link in the OP does:

A Delta Air Lines spokesperson told Fox News Digital that while the plane was descending, the crew "received an advisory from onboard systems of potential traffic."

The spokesperson said there were 129 passengers and six crew members aboard the Delta flight, all of whom got off the plane safely.

"Delta aircraft are equipped with technology to warn crews of potential conflicts with other aircraft and our pilots train extensively to respond," the spokesperson said.
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T Bird said:
Controller failure mainly but why on earth did the American flight taking off sit on the runway for about a minute before rolling after takeoff clearance? That’s a long time at a moderately busy class D, let alone at Logan. Good on Delta pilots for seeing it and going around
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No telling. Lots of things are possible.
 
T Bird said:
Controller failure mainly but why on earth did the American flight taking off sit on the runway for about a minute before rolling after takeoff clearance? That’s a long time at a moderately busy class D, let alone at Logan. Good on Delta pilots for seeing it and going around
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I've sat on runways much longer than a minute.
edit: After a Line-Up and Wait.
 
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T Bird said:
Controller failure mainly but why on earth did the American flight taking off sit on the runway for about a minute before rolling after takeoff clearance? That’s a long time at a moderately busy class D, let alone at Logan. Good on Delta pilots for seeing it and going around
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Where did you get a minute? From the audio it sounded like about 12 seconds between ATC issuing a takeoff clearance to American on 27 and delta calling a go-aroundon 33L. American was initially given a LUAW until the preceding traffic landed.
 
dmspilot said:
I've sat on runways much longer than a minute.
edit: After a Line-Up and Wait.
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Of course, that’s different than a minute after takeoff clearance though. To be clear, controller is main failure here: should’ve issued takeoff clearance with “no delay” or cancelled the clearance once he realized American was taking so long. By the audio it seems the controller forgot he even issued a takeoff clearance, which is obviously an issue.
Brad Z said:
Where did you get a minute? From the audio it sounded like about 12 seconds between ATC issuing a takeoff clearance to American on 27 and delta calling a go-aroundon 33L. American was initially given a LUAW until the preceding traffic landed.
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~2:03 takeoff clearance
~2:58 American starts rolling
~3:03 Delta calls going around


VAS Aviation is usually pretty good about syncing things up but maybe he got it wrong here. That’s what I was going off anyways
 
T Bird said:
Of course, that’s different than a minute after takeoff clearance though.
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Yeah, I don't know if the video is accurate, but almost a minute to get rolling after being already lined up isn't normal, obviously.
 
dmspilot said:
Yeah, I don't know if the video is accurate, but almost a minute to get rolling after being already lined up isn't normal, obviously.
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That same delay was a factor in the near miss between a SWA 737 and a FedEx 767 at AUS in 2023. Visual conditions were marginal, and ATC assumed the Southwest aircraft was at the hold short line when it issued the takeoff clearance. It was not.

Another 1:27 passed before it lined up and began rolling, at the same time the FedEx aircraft was on short final. The FedEx PF saw the silhouette of the 737 through the fog, and initiated a go around. The planes came within 150-170 feet of each other.
 
T Bird said:
Of course, that’s different than a minute after takeoff clearance though. To be clear, controller is main failure here: should’ve issued takeoff clearance with “no delay” or cancelled the clearance once he realized American was taking so long. By the audio it seems the controller forgot he even issued a takeoff clearance, which is obviously an issue.


~2:03 takeoff clearance
~2:58 American starts rolling
~3:03 Delta calls going around


VAS Aviation is usually pretty good about syncing things up but maybe he got it wrong here. That’s what I was going off anyways
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Thanks. I apparently got punked watching Blancolirio’s video of the event. He edited out that time. That long delay makes a huge difference.
 
ATC said something like American what you doing? I think now it meant American why you still on the runway?

Hate pilots that get TO clearance then dawdle on the active runway.
 
Given that ATC is anticipating a certain amount of time from clearance to takeoff roll (both for LUAW and from hold short bars) for the purposes of separation, is there guidance to pilots on how long they should take and if they can’t meet that, to alert ATC? It seems pretty incongruent for ATC to have some expectation of this for separation purposes if there isn’t guidance/standards. I don’t recall any but I also don’t fly commercial into class B.

I know ATC can employ “without delay” phrasing but it seems to be relatively rarely used (probably for the best).
 
Didn't give a conflicting traffic call on the takeoff clearance (not that this means anything other than a heads up for pilots to see other traffic) or otherwise express urgency. I was in the tower at IAD one time and they cleared a guy to take off and then were looking at the arriving traffic for a while only to turn back to see the departing plane still at the threshhold. There was some unkind grumbling (off radio thankfully) as they sent the approaching plane around.
 
Re: taking a minute to begin take-off.
Don't you need a spool-up procedure on the 737 that takes 15-20 seconds? So, "cleared for take-off", final checks, spool-up, check engines, press TOGA. They might've taken a few extra seconds to check things, but weren't exactly taking their sweet time. Expecially with no "no delay" instructions.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Re: taking a minute to begin take-off.
Don't you need a spool-up procedure on the 737 that takes 15-20 seconds? So, "cleared for take-off", final checks, spool-up, check engines, press TOGA. They might've taken a few extra seconds to check things, but weren't exactly taking their sweet time. Expecially with no "no delay" instructions.
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Twenty seconds is a bit more than required. I would say 5-10 seconds from idle to stable and ready to TOGA. Normally if I get a line up and wait I’ll leave a little spool in there if I’m expecting a quick takeoff clearance. Ground idle is 20%, stable spool minimum is 40% before advancing to takeoff thrust. Sitting at 25-28% for a couple seconds doesn’t have that much extra thrust but significantly reduces spool time to get TOGA. Even just taxing around the airport in the summer I keep the right side spoiled to 25% or so to keep the back cool. If everything is done and we are in the groove a one minute delay is not expected. But who knows. There’s no way to know everything that was going on in the flight deck. Might have been an OE trip and the pilot flying was operating the aircraft for the first time.

Too many variables at play to accurately speculate in my opinion.
 
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