ATC Argument

Discussion in 'Change to my Frequency...' started by Velocity173, Oct 18, 2016.

  1. MAKG1

    MAKG1 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Messages:
    13,409
    Location:
    California central coast
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MAKG
    And it's not necessarily military.

    The Alameda County Sheriff runs a bomb range near Tracy, that has restricted airspace up to 4000 for potential shrapnel. R-2531.
     
  2. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    13,251
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fearless Tower
    But the Super Hornet (or ship for that matter) firing live ordnance can add a whole new level of excitement in a Whiskey area.
     
    ircphoenix likes this.
  3. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    13,251
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fearless Tower
    Of course. We call them range foulers.

    But do you really want to take s chance that they'll see you?

    I don't know of any incidents with civil aircraft, but we have inadvertently fired at plenty of small vessels over the years.
     
  4. ircphoenix

    ircphoenix Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Messages:
    2,360
    Location:
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ircphoenix
    Listen... if I get taken out by an arty shell, that would be terrible.

    But it would make for probably one of the coolest death stories ever.
     
    MetalCloud and Velocity173 like this.
  5. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    7,745
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Almost been there, done that. Operation Strong Eagle in Afghanistan. From the arty guys: "Assault 11, are you clear of gun line 039?!"
     
    ircphoenix likes this.
  6. ircphoenix

    ircphoenix Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Messages:
    2,360
    Location:
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ircphoenix
    You're typically lower than I'd be, no?
     
  7. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    7,745
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Possibly. We were flying command and control (C2) at the time. Think we were around 1500-2000 AGL. Deconfliction looks great in a PPT brief but once the shooting starts, procedures go out the window.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
    ircphoenix likes this.
  8. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    13,190
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    According to the FAA, the using agency of R-2531 is the Department of Energy.

    https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/order/sua.pdf (See page 29.)

    Sources indicate that Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory uses it, referring to it as "Site 300."
    Maybe they let the sheriff use it too. :dunno:

    https://str.llnl.gov/str/Grissom.html

    https://www.dtsc.ca.gov/HazardousWaste/Projects/upload/LLNLSite300_IS.pdf

    The location of Site 300 looks about right on Google Maps:

    https://www.google.com/maps/@37.6346721,-121.5009084,16.01z
     
  9. PPC1052

    PPC1052 En-Route

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    3,588
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PPC
    Wait. What about TWA 800? ;)
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  10. ircphoenix

    ircphoenix Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Messages:
    2,360
    Location:
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ircphoenix
    Settle down. lol
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  11. TRocket

    TRocket Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2014
    Messages:
    479
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tony
    Wow that was a long winded discussion...the pilot was definitely looking for a confrontation. I like how the controller used the argument "I have worked race day at Daytona, and we could not let anyone go 7 miles east of where you are". I hate to be captain obvious here, but pretty sure that would be the fly over and typical stadium TFR. Just sayin...
     
  12. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2016
    Messages:
    194
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan Ferguson 1974
    The pilot had a point. The conversation was a bit long-winded of course, but the frequency appeared to be quiet, and he didn't appear to be hostile. The controller, in fact, seemed to be less aware of the legalities of what was involved than the pilot did. Also, there seemed to be a strong suggestion by the controller that a violation would occur if the pilot proceeded on his route, even though it was never directly stated that way. That would have rankled me as well. There's nothing legally preventing a GA pilot from entering an active warning area.

    This would probably have gone smoother if the controller stated "Advise you steer clear of W-XXX. I was told by our military counterparts that there would be activity in the airspace and to re-route all traffic around it." At that point it's a polite request rather than a demand. Of course that doesn't preclude the pilot from entering anyway, even though it would be pretty foolish to do so.
     
  13. WannFly

    WannFly Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2016
    Messages:
    1,443
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WannaFly
    When the ATC says don't go there, there may be F16s flying around, I would just not go there..but again that's just me. What a waste of airtime

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
     
  14. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2016
    Messages:
    194
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan Ferguson 1974
    He didn't. He politely did as the controller advised. I think it was a matter of a chatty pilot and a controller who overstepped his bounds ever so slightly. It was a civil if not lengthy exchange.
     
  15. WannFly

    WannFly Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2016
    Messages:
    1,443
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WannaFly
    True. I was thinking if it was me the exchange would be
    Controller: stay out of that airspace, the military is doing God knows what
    Me: am outta here


    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
     
  16. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2016
    Messages:
    194
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan Ferguson 1974
    Ha. Me too, more or less. I wouldn't have bothered getting into it with the controller because I'm already aware of what I legally can and can't do. The controller was simply misinformed. The military can demand ATC not send IFR or VFR advisory traffic into the W, but they can't restrict a pilot from entering it on his own. To do so after being advised against it by ATC would be foolish and costly to the folks doing important work in that area so it behooves everyone to stay out when they ask us to stay out.
     
    WannFly likes this.
  17. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    7,745
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Correct. IFRs are a different animal also. That's a situation where ATC has a separation responsibility for nonparticipating aircraft. In that instance, unless the airspace has been delegated from the using agency (FACSFAC) back to the controlling agency (FAA), they either have to maintain separation (3 miles) from that W area boundary or get permission to transit the aircraft through. "Sea lord" (FACSFAC) won't let that happen if certain hazardous conditions are present.

    A VFR has no obligation to talk to anyone and has no requirement to remain clear of the airspace. Therefore in the example "N12345 terminating radar services."
     
    RV10flyer likes this.
  18. bbchien

    bbchien Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2005
    Messages:
    9,898
    Location:
    Central Illinois
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bruce C
    What an A__-hat.
    Currently the county has enough $$s in the budget for 4 hours of flying time a month per active duty pilot. And he's going to foul the exercise. Just great. It'll probably cost him 0.3 of engine time to avoid the Sealord and "I've got rights". Bet he's never seen the naval gatling gun at work.....

    The ATCer is correct, he's going to meet a lot of friends he doesn't want to meet. The pilot is going to be entirely within his rights but it sure sounds like "well hey I got rights!". The Pilot is correct he has the right to do that. GREAT Ambassador for GA.....not so much.
     
    Pilawt and KA550 like this.
  19. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    2,887
    Location:
    Vail, Arizona
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timbeck2
    Mama always told me you can be right and then you can be dead right.
     
  20. Dave S.

    Dave S. Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2017
    Messages:
    87
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    thetexan
    The conversation got out of hand and became unprofessional. It should have ended with "Roger, radar service terminated, squawk 1200, be advised the Sealord MOA is active, good day".

    Whether or not the pilot gets into the MOA is HIS responsibility to know about (to the extent possible not allowing for immediate status changes). The assertion that the pilot would not have known about it unless the controller advised him of it is bogus.

    tex