At least he didn't blame GA this time....

wsuffa

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Bill S.
So, AA hasn't heard of "competition"?

Time for management to go....

Last week, as American announced a mainline capacity cut of 11% to 12%, Arpey blasted low-cost competitors for continued expansion in recent years. The industry "has been hurt by some airlines growing faster than conditions warranted, and that impact has worsened in light of recent economic trends and soaring fuel prices," he said in a prepared statement.

Added American spokesman Tim Smith: "We're not naming names, but you don't have to look any further than a number of airlines that have vastly increased capacity the last couple of years, going far beyond not only the growth of the economy but the demand for their own product as well."

Apparently they don't realize that competition means their cutbacks mean that folks that CAN service a route profitably will step in.

Link to article
 
Love it. "It's OUR JOB to get this business! We can't do it so they sure as h* shouldn't be allowed to it either!"

How many $1M does this MBA get to show he doesn't understand Econ 101? (or it Econ 102?) Wonder who's test he copied from.

I'm smelling another dire need for a taxpayer bailout.

I talked to a captain who whined, "Now you try to tell me that hub and spoke is wrong." Uhhh...I think the message is in the all of the profitability your airline doesn't have.
 
"We're not naming names, but you don't have to look any further than a number of airlines that have vastly increased capacity the last couple of years, going far beyond not only the growth of the economy but the demand for their own product as well."

At the risk of being churlish, about whom is he complaining?

Skybus? They failed.

Virgin? They're new- maybe he thinks that no one new should be allowed to compete...

JetBlue? They're suffering for their growth and are reducing capacity.

Southwest? They must not be "...going far beyond not only the growth of the economy but the demand for their own product as well..." because, while they have grown, they also continue to make money.
 
..Southwest? They must not be "...going far beyond not only the growth of the economy but the demand for their own product as well..." because, while they have grown, they also continue to make money.

Yeah. It's those Southwest guys. They're way "beyond the demand for thier product." It obvious. That's why the seats on their planes are so full. :dunno:
 
"We're not naming names, but you don't have to look any further than a number of airlines that have vastly increased capacity the last couple of years, going far beyond not only the growth of the economy but the demand for their own product as well."

At the risk of being churlish, about whom is he complaining?

He conveniently overlooked this: Link
article said:
In May 1999, the U.S. Department of Justice charged that American repeatedly sought to drive small, startup airlines out of its hub at Dallas/Ft. Worth International Airport (DFW) by saturating their routes with additional fleets and cutting fares. After it drove out a new entrant, American re- established high fares and reduced service.


Skybus? They failed.

Virgin? They're new- maybe he thinks that no one new should be allowed to compete...

Bingo!

JetBlue? They're suffering for their growth and are reducing capacity.

Southwest? They must not be "...going far beyond not only the growth of the economy but the demand for their own product as well..." because, while they have grown, they also continue to make money.

Southwest prices for profitability on every route..... and together with fuel hedging has done very well....
 
Indeed it is Southwest. My take is this is just another salvo in the war 'tween AA and SWA.
 
That's why the seats on their planes are so full. :dunno:

Kind of funny you should say that. There were times when I was commuting out of Kansas City when I could not get on either UAL or AA. But Southwest was only about two thirds full. At least at that time, for the same money, the people would rather do UA or AA rather than SWA.
 
That's why the seats on their planes are so full. :dunno:

Kind of funny you should say that. There were times when I was commuting out of Kansas City when I could not get on either UAL or AA. But Southwest was only about two thirds full. At least at that time, for the same money, the people would rather do UA or AA rather than SWA.

BTW, EVERYONE's seats are full these days.
 
Kind of funny you should say that. There were times when I was commuting out of Kansas City when I could not get on either UAL or AA. But Southwest was only about two thirds full. At least at that time, for the same money, the people would rather do UA or AA rather than SWA.
Sprint has a contract with AA. So lots of Sprint employees were on the KC to DFW or ORD flights! My company was also send lots of people back and forth on AA while Lucent had the UAL flights. Friday afternoons were like going to a homecoming at the KC airport.
Probably a lot of other companies had contracts with UAL and AA too. So SWA may not have really been cheaper. I know form comparing airfares that business people are not paying the same as vacationers. SWA does not cater to the biz crowd and that can keep people off of them. We are actually told to not fly them.
 
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Kind of funny you should say that. There were times when I was commuting out of Kansas City when I could not get on either UAL or AA. But Southwest was only about two thirds full. At least at that time, for the same money, the people would rather do UA or AA rather than SWA.

BTW, EVERYONE's seats are full these days.

And WN was still making money....
 
Kind of funny you should say that. There were times when I was commuting out of Kansas City when I could not get on either UAL or AA. But Southwest was only about two thirds full. At least at that time, for the same money, the people would rather do UA or AA rather than SWA.

BTW, EVERYONE's seats are full these days.

When SWA had the arrive early for low lettered pass for the cattle car seating a lot of people hated it. Now you can get the A pass by checking in online 24 hours before the flight.

I flew SWA all the time but I've had cases where AA from O'Hare was the same price so I went with the reserved seat.

Still, SWA has the crews who aren't in the customer-prevention business. In Chicago MDW works better than O'Hare even if getting to it is more of a hassle for us north siders.
 
And WN was still making money....

But that wasn't the issue I was addressing in the post. Mike made the comment about why SWA's seats were full. I was saying that EVERYONE's seats were full and that maybe it wasn't what SWA was doing. That the legacies aren't making money wasn't part of that equation.
 
But that wasn't the issue I was addressing in the post. Mike made the comment about why SWA's seats were full. I was saying that EVERYONE's seats were full and that maybe it wasn't what SWA was doing. That the legacies aren't making money wasn't part of that equation.

Yeah, no joke about that. It's like riding a city bus at rush hour.... Although some, apparently, are not as full as it appears - I was on two 777's this past weekend (to/from LHR) that were no more than 50% full in back. And most WN flights I've been on lately have been overbooked.

Yield management is an interesting art, though it can get quite perverted very quickly when the carriers are competing on market share. The ideal situation with yeild management is to price the seats such that the last seat commands the highest price. That's not practical when folks are competing on market share (which the large airlines did for many years). WN is less about market share and more about pricing to turn a profit on each route. I negotiated several corporate deals with carriers - WN never would give a corporate discount, the others would but had the condition that the discount would be based on the market share we gave them between specified city pairs. So the planes could be full, but you'd never make any money.

FWIW, WN is rarely the cheapest carrier except within the last 3-7 days of departure. I find more and more business folks on board that are moving to WN because they're going to be riding in back anyway (upgrades hard to get) and WN has no change fees. With all due respect to your employer, I've never had the sort of customer service problems with WN that I had (repeatedly) with UA (and to a lesser degree AA and DL).
 
Yeah, no joke about that. It's like riding a city bus at rush hour.... Although some, apparently, are not as full as it appears - I was on two 777's this past weekend (to/from LHR) that were no more than 50% full in back. And most WN flights I've been on lately have been overbooked.

Yield management is an interesting art, though it can get quite perverted very quickly when the carriers are competing on market share. The ideal situation with yeild management is to price the seats such that the last seat commands the highest price. That's not practical when folks are competing on market share (which the large airlines did for many years). WN is less about market share and more about pricing to turn a profit on each route. I negotiated several corporate deals with carriers - WN never would give a corporate discount, the others would but had the condition that the discount would be based on the market share we gave them between specified city pairs. So the planes could be full, but you'd never make any money.

FWIW, WN is rarely the cheapest carrier except within the last 3-7 days of departure. I find more and more business folks on board that are moving to WN because they're going to be riding in back anyway (upgrades hard to get) and WN has no change fees. With all due respect to your employer, I've never had the sort of customer service problems with WN that I had (repeatedly) with UA (and to a lesser degree AA and DL).

Getting upgrades is nigh on the impossible now. I've even seen E-Plat 4MM'ers complaining that their eVIPs aren't clearing now. WTF?

My loyalty to AA is only because I've got lounge access and they service the routes I need (DEL, NRT, CDG [except with the god-awful 767, *spit*], LHR) and I can get on CX for my RTWs. I'm going to requal Plat this year, which isn't so bad, and their customer service has always been extremely helpful to me. Plus, DFW isn't a terrible airport to connect through. Also, OW RTW tickets in biz are pretty cheap for the product -- $7900 all in for ORD-LHR-DEL-BLR-KUL-MNL-NRT-ORD (an extra $400 if I want to do PVG, too). Not too shabby if you ask me, and I get 1.5 EQMs on most legs.

WN doesn't serve a lot of the out-station dumps I get to spend time at, so c'est la vie. Plus, I can at least get cattle-class awards to interesting places abroad on AA.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Getting upgrades is nigh on the impossible now. I've even seen E-Plat 4MM'ers complaining that their eVIPs aren't clearing now. WTF?

My loyalty to AA is only because I've got lounge access and they service the routes I need (DEL, NRT, CDG [except with the god-awful 767, *spit*], LHR) and I can get on CX for my RTWs. I'm going to requal Plat this year, which isn't so bad, and their customer service has always been extremely helpful to me. Plus, DFW isn't a terrible airport to connect through. Also, OW RTW tickets in biz are pretty cheap for the product -- $7900 all in for ORD-LHR-DEL-BLR-KUL-MNL-NRT-ORD (an extra $400 if I want to do PVG, too). Not too shabby if you ask me, and I get 1.5 EQMs on most legs.

WN doesn't serve a lot of the out-station dumps I get to spend time at, so c'est la vie. Plus, I can at least get cattle-class awards to interesting places abroad on AA.

Cheers,

-Andrew

Don't get me wrong - I've got lifetime mid-tier with Delta (and current year top tier) and Platinum with AA. There are places I can go with either that I can't get to on WN... including the international destinations. I'd beg to differ with your opinion about DFW, though I'm not sure any of the other major hubs (LAX, ORD, ATL, especially JFK and EWR, etc) are much better.

I think DL has a better product in the air (compared to AA). Continental beats them both. On the ground, all three are about equal - it all depends on who you get. CO and AA's clubs are better. DL's website has some major problems with booking, AA seems to work better. I think AA's FF program is a bit better on int'l traffic (you can request the upgrade from any fare), though DL's is a bit better for domestic, and CO brings up the rear.

My theory is this: if I'm going to be stuck in coach anyway, WN is better than the others domestically (if they can get you to the destination non-stop, which is many of the markets from BWI) - there is an advantage to open seating if you're one of the first on the plane, and the legroom is better. If I'm going internationally, I'll shop on the upgrades and price if upgrades are unavailable. There really isn't enough difference in the coach product to differentiate based on product.
 
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Don't get me wrong - I've got lifetime mid-tier with Delta (and current year top tier) and Platinum with AA. There are places I can go with either that I can't get to on WN... including the international destinations. I'd beg to differ with your opinion about DFW, though I'm not sure any of the other major hubs (LAX, ORD, ATL, especially JFK and EWR, etc) are much better.

I fly through ORD because I have to, and bear it. I hate JFK, EWR, and ATL with a passion; and CVG gives me the ticks. So, DFW isn't bad, especially Terminal D or whatever they call it now.

I think DL has a better product in the air (compared to AA). Continental beats them both. On the ground, all three are about equal - it all depends on who you get. CO and AA's clubs are better. DL's website has some major problems with booking, AA seems to work better. I think AA's FF program is a bit better on int'l traffic (you can request the upgrade from any fare), though DL's is a bit better for domestic, and CO brings up the rear.

Continental means EWR. NO WAY IN HELL will I fly through EWR ever again, plain and simple. Same goes for JFK. I don't like DL because of ATL and CVG... and they nuked 20k miles I had with them after 12 months of inactivity. (My fault, yes, but I'm going to blame the airline instead of me :) )

My theory is this: if I'm going to be stuck in coach anyway, WN is better than the others domestically (if they can get you to the destination non-stop, which is many of the markets from BWI) - there is an advantage to open seating if you're one of the first on the plane, and the legroom is better. If I'm going internationally, I'll shop on the upgrades and price if upgrades are unavailable. There really isn't enough difference in the coach product to differentiate based on product.

Replace WN with JBU (I fail at the "cool frequent flier game", I don't know the two-letter IATA for JBU) and we are there, but from KRIC it's NYC (not so often) or KBOS (I usually drive or connect-in from another departure point), so I'm not on them as much. What a great product and price, though.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
I fly through ORD because I have to, and bear it. I hate JFK, EWR, and ATL with a passion; and CVG gives me the ticks. So, DFW isn't bad, especially Terminal D or whatever they call it now.

CVG's not bad, except that it's been reduced to more CRJs than anywhere else. SLC is actually a good connecting airport, and IAH is pretty good, too.

Continental means EWR. NO WAY IN HELL will I fly through EWR ever again, plain and simple. Same goes for JFK. I don't like DL because of ATL and CVG... and they nuked 20k miles I had with them after 12 months of inactivity. (My fault, yes, but I'm going to blame the airline instead of me :) )

I'm right there with you on EWR. Fortunately, CO also runs a hub at CLE and IAH (IAH was convenient when I was in SAT, and preferable to DFW). My experiences at JFK have not been bad in re: Customs/Border Patrol. Far preferable to ATL....except for the interminable delays.

Replace WN with JBU (I fail at the "cool frequent flier game", I don't know the two-letter IATA for JBU) and we are there, but from KRIC it's NYC (not so often) or KBOS (I usually drive or connect-in from another departure point), so I'm not on them as much. What a great product and price, though.

Agree on JB. If I've gotta go to California, JB's got decent service out of IAD (except for the part about IAD being a mess). Nonstop....
 
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...(I fail at the "cool frequent flier game", I don't know the two-letter IATA for JBU)

B6

I share your sentiments about EWR, but fortunately I can get most places I want to go directly from IAH.
 
Sprint has a contract with AA. So lots of Sprint employees were on the KC to DFW or ORD flights! My company was also send lots of people back and forth on AA while Lucent had the UAL flights. Friday afternoons were like going to a homecoming at the KC airport.
Probably a lot of other companies had contracts with UAL and AA too.

Quite right- corporate contract rates are a big plus for AA at DFW - but do nothing for those of us in small business.

SWA does not cater to the biz crowd and that can keep people off of them.

Myth.

Southwest's principal clientele - their essential core - are business travelers. This is why Southwest does not do like some discounters (Spirit, Allegiant, sometimes Airtran) and open up stations with a couple of flights a day; they only open up markets with the significant frequency, the critical mass and flight times that work for business travelers. One other thing that always helps SWA with business travelers: walk-up fares are not ridiculous, and if your itinerary changes, you never, ever forfeit the value of your ticket.

We are actually told to not fly them.

When I worked for a Fortune 500 company, I used to get airline tickets sent in from the corporate travel department in Chicago with stern admonishments never to change tickets, and that I would be responsible for any increases in fares if I did. Tickets were nearly always on one particular carrier. Come to find out, the fares were almost always higher than routinely available fares on other carriers, and travel department staff were on the take from the travel agent and the rep for the carrier.

If someone tells you not to fly a carrier for any reason other than (1) they cost more, or (2) they are dangerous, then I question their judgment.

As for me, when I flew a lot commercial, I'd fly whatever carrier got me there quickly, and home quickly.
 
OBTW, I have never had customer service problems with any of the other carriers, either- except for AA canceling flights and making no arrangements to get me home.

From Baton Rouge, it was 7 hours in a Hyundai with 3 clients; from San Francisco, it was UAL, on a flight I found and AA denied existed (AA was going to send us home three days later). UAL treated us just fine.

Basically, your chances of getting hosed (price and service) go way up if you are originating or destinating at the big hub. DFW=bend over and take it.
 
If someone tells you not to fly a carrier for any reason other than (1) they cost more, or (2) they are dangerous, then I question their judgment.
Or you want to look at the contract you signed. We have a preffered air carrier contract and a corporate policy. We have to give so much business to that carrier per year or pay a penalty.

We also have a contract with a travel agency. SWA does not play with travel agencies. So even if you manage to book on SWA through their web site, you are on your own if stranded. There will be no corporate help.
 
We also have a contract with a travel agency. SWA does not play with travel agencies. So even if you manage to book on SWA through their web site, you are on your own if stranded. There will be no corporate help.

We're with Amex Travel and I book corporate flights on SW regularly. When problems have occurred Amex was willing and able to offer assistance.
 
We're with Amex Travel and I book corporate flights on SW regularly. When problems have occurred Amex was willing and able to offer assistance.
Ok that is utterly bizzare. We are also with Amex and they tell noi way no how can they book SWA. Are you forced to use the Amex online booking tool? That will not even show SWA flights
 
Ok that is utterly bizzare. We are also with Amex and they tell noi way no how can they book SWA. Are you forced to use the Amex online booking tool? That will not even show SWA flights

We have a proprietary travel site that is managed by Amex. The site even has a SWAbiz link in case the fair and/or route is better.
 
Quite right- corporate contract rates are a big plus for AA at DFW - but do nothing for those of us in small business.

Corporate rates don't do much for companies, either, unless you're booking competitive routes and last minute tickets. The typical contract will a perecntage off the higher fares, and no discount for lower fares. And, it's by market.

For Hub-Hub (same airline), you will get a nominal amount (say 5% off)
For Hub-competitive non-hub market, you will get 10-15% off
For Hub-other airline hub (say, DFW-IAH), you will get maybe 20% off.

And, the deal is predicated on you giving them >51% market share between competitive markets. So, you'd have to give them 51% or more DFW-IAH.

Because the tracking is required, you are also locked to a certain travel agency. IOW, the deal specifies that you will use Carlson, Amex, or whomever - you can't book around them. That's for tracking the revenue. You also have certain revenue minimums each year.

All in all, a small business is much better off using WN or booking lowest fares.

Myth.

Southwest's principal clientele - their essential core - are business travelers. This is why Southwest does not do like some discounters (Spirit, Allegiant, sometimes Airtran) and open up stations with a couple of flights a day; they only open up markets with the significant frequency, the critical mass and flight times that work for business travelers. One other thing that always helps SWA with business travelers: walk-up fares are not ridiculous, and if your itinerary changes, you never, ever forfeit the value of your ticket.

They also don't do corporate discounts. But the do offer certain other things to businesses. Best of all: no change fees.

When I worked for a Fortune 500 company, I used to get airline tickets sent in from the corporate travel department in Chicago with stern admonishments never to change tickets, and that I would be responsible for any increases in fares if I did. Tickets were nearly always on one particular carrier. Come to find out, the fares were almost always higher than routinely available fares on other carriers, and travel department staff were on the take from the travel agent and the rep for the carrier.

See my comment above on how revenue & market share is tracked. In the old days, travel agents received a commission based on sales. Now the company pays them. But they still can get an override (commission) based on how much business they write for a carrier.

If someone tells you not to fly a carrier for any reason other than (1) they cost more, or (2) they are dangerous, then I question their judgment.

As for me, when I flew a lot commercial, I'd fly whatever carrier got me there quickly, and home quickly.

Well, there are other reasons, but basically you need to understand the complaint.

Or you want to look at the contract you signed. We have a preffered air carrier contract and a corporate policy. We have to give so much business to that carrier per year or pay a penalty.

We also have a contract with a travel agency. SWA does not play with travel agencies. So even if you manage to book on SWA through their web site, you are on your own if stranded. There will be no corporate help.

False. WN does play with agencies. I know folks that book 'em all the time through agencies. What WN does NOT do is provide data thorough the GDS (the global data systems). Agencies must book directly with WN, it's not quite as easy as booking others.

Ok that is utterly bizzare. We are also with Amex and they tell noi way no how can they book SWA. Are you forced to use the Amex online booking tool? That will not even show SWA flights

AmEx can book WN as an agency, but not through the online tool (I don't think) because it uses GDS data. The online tool can be further customized to ONLY show flights that meet the criteria of company policy.
 
Count me as one of the few luddites who calls the agency directly. I benchmark the routing via ITA Matrix and get the fare basis and construction. Call the agency, give them the times and pairings... if they come back with the typical "agency" fare, I'l give them the fare construction and get exactly what I want.

The travel portals are for enforcing policy that no one wants to actually enforce.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
AmEx can book WN as an agency, but not through the online tool (I don't think) because it uses GDS data. The online tool can be further customized to ONLY show flights that meet the criteria of company policy.

Count me as one of the few luddites who calls the agency directly.
We have to use the online tool for all domestic and London travel.
 
We have to use the online tool for all domestic and London travel.

We use ours for all domestic and single city foreign travel. Amex. And I have flown Southwest using Amex.

Back to the airline bashing. I don't like DL. No legroom in coach. And they haven't had any as long as I've been using them (as little as possible) - 30+ years. CO is OK, but, like others, I don't like EWR. Sometimes there's no choice. Meetings in Piscataway, what are you going to do? UA is great simply because I'm 1P and ride in E+ automatically. The extra legroom is great. But, going to Europe it sure doesn't hurt my feelings to wind up on SAS. They almost always give me a complimentary upgrade to their Economy Extra cabin, and business class isn't unheard of. Northwest can't get me anywhere on time, except Hawaii. And that's been a constant for nearly 40 years. US Air actually did alright earlier this month getting me to/from Malpensa (Milan). LH is like DL - NO LEGROOM in coach. Otherwise, they've given me good service.

Up and down the west coast I'll take our corporate shuttle fleet. Yeah, a B-1900 from OLM to HIO and ERJ-135s the rest of the route, but NO TSA. Get there 15-20 minutes before the flight, swipe your badge, get your boarding pass and wait to board. Civilized. :yes:
 
We have to use the online tool for all domestic and London travel.

My apologies, then. I hate the online tool here, and have personal relationships with two of the travel agents (one who does all of my international work -- I can spout off cities and desired routing and 30 minutes later, I've got fully priced and booked tickets) and the cost to the corporation is far less than if I had to spend 30+ minutes manually setting up all of my trips.

I need more international travel, though. I'm missing EXP :(

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Back to the airline bashing. I don't like DL. No legroom in coach. LH is like DL - NO LEGROOM in coach. Otherwise, they've given me good service.

I've found DL to be no worse than AA in the legroom department. E+ is nice, but I won't fly UA. If you want really bad legroom, try Virgin Express - 29" seat pitch. Once and never again.

Domestically, aside from E+, JetBlue, Southwest and Midwest (Signature Service, not the new, two-class arrangement) are about the most comfortable.
 
I've found DL to be no worse than AA in the legroom department. E+ is nice, but I won't fly UA. If you want really bad legroom, try Virgin Express - 29" seat pitch. Once and never again.

Domestically, aside from E+, JetBlue, Southwest and Midwest (Signature Service, not the new, two-class arrangement) are about the most comfortable.

I saw Altria's G-V taxiing down the ramp a few weeks ago. I said, "WTF am I doing in this spam can?!"

Sigh.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
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