Army’s Future Tiltrotor

[Ed Haywood]

Yeah the speed and range will help but at some point, they become helicopters on approach, landing and departing.

That's where I think they will struggle too. My knowledge of RW aerodynamics is limited, but I've been pax on enough night infils to know that a good pilot can do some pretty impressive pilot **** to minimize exposure to ground fires. AFAIK that's a good way to die on tiltrotors. The ones I've seen in the field had a very steady, stable descent profile.

But at least the Valor won't leave two giant scorch marks on the LZ to give the tracking party a good starting point.

BTW will it get an Indian name?

 

[Velocity173]

That's where I think they will struggle too. My knowledge of RW aerodynamics is limited, but I've been pax on enough night infils to know that a good pilot can do some pretty impressive pilot **** to minimize exposure to ground fires. AFAIK that's a good way to die on tiltrotors. The ones I've seen in the field had a very steady, stable descent profile.

But at least the Valor won't leave two giant scorch marks on the LZ to give the tracking party a good starting point.

BTW will it get an Indian name?

By the time it enters service, I think it’ll have sufficient auto land capability. Something that could come in handy in a hot LZ. I just worry about the engine nacelles. Guy I used to work with took an SA-7 to his number 1 engine in Iraq. He had to do a PL along the Tigris but everyone survived. A tilt rotor taking a rocket / missile to the engine would be a bad day.

I would think they’d get an Indian name. The MV-75 Winnebago seems appropriate to me.

 

[Piperonca]

I would think they’d get an Indian name. The MV-75 Winnebago seems appropriate to me.

Crow. A formation would be a murder.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Helicopters/s/x5EvAN5rwG

 

[YakDrvr]

The reality is that if the OPFOR is sitting near your LZ with double digit manpads you are screwed no matter your ride. The greater your speed and range the more LZ options the OPFOR has to account for. China would be unlike anything since WWII in intensity. If you don’t succeed in picking an uncontested LZ you will probably die before you know what happened. This new tiltrotor gives greater speed and range. The compromises to achieve this ultimately won’t matter if you get a good LZ and having the world’s most Gucci Blackhawk wouldn’t save you if you pick the wrong LZ. PACAF is reopening as many old WWII era airstrips to increase basing options, as they can, so that China will never know which ones to target and which ones are empty. I’m not an air assault expert by any means (didn’t even stay at a Holiday Inn last night), but I worked for a Marine Osprey guy for several years and had the chance to talk about it vs the Phrog he flew previously.

 

[Sierra1]

Gotcha, thanks for the insi

It is in the field. That doesn't mean it's any good or actually does what's claimed in testing vs real world engagements. One of the Anduril systems I was impressed with, another one was hot garbage. Also true for a lot of other systems. Syria in particular became one big proving ground for systems testing. Some of the ones claimed to be ready for real-world engagements turned out to be dumpster fires.

Gotcha, thanks for the insight

 

[Velocity173]

Army cancelled the improved 901 engine for the Black Hawks and Apaches. It was intended as a life extension for those airframes, which will be around for years to come. Maybe not smart. As far as the venerable CH-47, don't forget the Bin Laden raid where the good old Hook came to the rescue. The B-52 of Army Aviation.

As far as the characteristics of the tilt rotor, I agree with your assessment. The vortex ring effect is a real problem in the night assault where there is a high degree of crap and confusion. Just avoiding obstacles and other rapidly maneuvering aircraft in close proximity in a swirling dust cloud viewed through goggles is enough without the other stressors such as your aircraft threatening to kill you. That would be the last straw.

I can see one mission like loading up drone teams in the MV-47 cargo bay, flying to the enemy's back yard, and letting them out to do their thing. The future of war appears to be Ukraine/Russia drones combined with a lot of stand-off operations, as you say. Tanks doing long distance shooting, etc.

While it would have been nice to have 3,000 hp on tap a side with 901s I wouldn’t call it a critical upgrade. The MHs are a bit of a dog at altitude but the UH-60L/V/Ms can get it done at most altitudes. I’d guess 90% of the LZs used in Afghanistan could be done with 60s. The rest could easily be done with 47s. Even with the hover improvements over the MV-22, no MV-75 can touch those numbers. The Apache really wouldn’t benefit much with the 901 either. I had escorts in Ds that complained they couldn’t keep up at altitude (13,000 ft). The AH-64E solved that problem. Much better high altitude performer and quicker than the D.

 

[Piperonca]

While it would have been nice to have 3,000 hp on tap a side with 901s I wouldn’t call it a critical upgrade. The MHs are a bit of a dog at altitude but the UH-60V/Ms can get it done at most altitudes. I’d guess 90% of the LZs used in Afghanistan could be done with 60s. The rest could easily be done with 47s. Even with the hover improvements over the MV-22, no MV-75 can touch those numbers. The Apache really wouldn’t benefit much with the 901 either. I had escorts in Ds that complained they couldn’t keep up at altitude (13,000 ft). The AH-64E solved that problem. Much better high altitude performer and quicker than the D.

You make a good case that the MV-75 can't really replace the Black Hawk for a lot of missions, but who cares now? I think the Scout/Attack mission has also been deprecated. Drones are already doing those jobs in Ukraine. Of course, being a long-retired REMF now I'm not current on concepts or capabilities. It's very interesting to read your perspectives.

 

[Velocity173]

You make a good case that the MV-75 can't really replace the Black Hawk for a lot of missions, but who cares now? I think the Scout/Attack mission has also been deprecated. Drones are already doing those jobs in Ukraine. Of course, being a long-retired REMF now I'm not current on concepts or capabilities. It's very interesting to read your perspectives.

You know it’s strange with the scout / attack role. You’ll hear the old scout guys say an Apache could never replace what they did. The SA that’s gained by doors off, flying low altitude. You can see, hear and literally smell things that an Apache crew can’t do. Then there are those that say a drone can do what an Apache can do. The Apache guys will say that no drone can have the SA of being in the moment. They’re not restricted by cameras or sensors. They’re there and can make on scene decisions that can’t be made a world away in a trailer in Nevada. I’m not totally sure the evolution of that role is going in the right direction. Cheaper and saves lives but I don’t think as effective as humans in the fray with a variety of weapons choices at hand.

 

[Piperonca]

You know it’s strange with the scout / attack role. You’ll hear the old scout guys say an Apache could never replace what they did. The SA that’s gained by doors off, flying low altitude. You can see, hear and literally smell things that an Apache crew can’t do. Then there are those that say a drone can do what an Apache can do. The Apache guys will say that no drone can have the SA of being in the moment. They’re not restricted by cameras or sensors. They’re there and can make on scene decisions that can’t be made a world away in a trailer in Nevada. I’m not totally sure the evolution of that role is going in the right direction. Cheaper and saves lives but I don’t think as effective as humans in the fray with a variety of weapons choices at hand.

Depends on the war. Counterinsurgency absolutely. NATO/Europe, maybe. War with China, just what the hell would it look like anyway? Somebody at the War College is no doubt having fun with that. Then there's the national command authority and who knows what they're planning.

We were afraid of China during the Korean conflict (stalemate), and afraid of China during Vietnam (loss). So maybe if there's no proxy involved, it's mano-a-mano, will anything be different? I don't see Little Birds sniffing around, or much of anything in the way of ground operations. Ground operations on the mainland? Are you kidding? And Taiwan is an interesting situation. I am not optimistic about anything in Asia. Good place to get burnt.

 

[TCABM]

Depends on the war. Counterinsurgency …War with China, just what the hell would it look like anyway? ….

China brings volume as the biggest threat; volume of everything.

But China has a huge demographic problem and, more importantly a bigger economic problem. So long was we look at a war with China being triggered by an invasion of Taiwan, we’re trapped in the last.

 

[Ed Haywood]

China brings volume as the biggest threat; volume of everything.

 

[Ed Haywood]

They’re there and can make on scene decisions that can’t be made a world away in a trailer in Nevada.

Reachback drones won't be survivable in a near peer fight. Operators will be in every battalion, brigade, and division TOC, and they'll be tied in with indirect fires and loitering munitions with a very rapid kill chain. And they will be VERY prime targets themselves.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Drone killing a Russian helo.

2.1M views · 8.8K reactions | โดรนยูเครนพยายามเข้าเล่นงาน เฮลิคอปเตอร์โจมตี Ka-52 Alligatorรัสเซีย.ในภูมิภาคเคิร์กส์ #war #drone #tank #military | War Fighter

โดรนยูเครนพยายามเข้าเล่นงาน เฮลิคอปเตอร์โจมตี Ka-52 Alligatorรัสเซีย.ในภูมิภาคเคิร์กส์ #war #drone #tank #military

www.facebook.com

 

[Velocity173]

Drone killing a Russian helo.

2.1M views · 8.8K reactions | โดรนยูเครนพยายามเข้าเล่นงาน เฮลิคอปเตอร์โจมตี Ka-52 Alligatorรัสเซีย.ในภูมิภาคเคิร์กส์ #war #drone #tank #military | War Fighter

โดรนยูเครนพยายามเข้าเล่นงาน เฮลิคอปเตอร์โจมตี Ka-52 Alligatorรัสเซีย.ในภูมิภาคเคิร์กส์ #war #drone #tank #military

www.facebook.com

The Valor, AKA Winnebago, will have a drone killing button that will neutralize any drones within a mile radius.

 

[Velocity173]

Speak of the devil. All you need is the drone zapping tech at 2+08.

 

[Warmi]

Not in most of our lifetimes.

Cheap but deadly drones are already making heavy tanks basically obsolete - thats on the actual battlefield not in theory , so it is coming, sooner than you think.

 

[Sierra_Hotel]

I'm well aware, I'm in the UAS space on the battlefield. They're great for one way attack systems and ISR, but I stand by my statement, manned aircraft on the battlefield are not going away anytime soon.

 

[Sierra_Hotel]

Speak of the devil. All you need is the drone zapping tech at 2+08.

The Roadrunner that was shown just prior to your timestamp is one of the systems I've seen in action. Eh. The Pulsar, and another similar one of a different name, are quite effective and the tech is only getting better. It's still the classic cat and mouse game of one tech gets better, so the other finds a way to defeat it, so the defeat tech improves, continue ad nauseam. It's why we're starting to see fiberoptic drones in Ukraine, because the EM environment there is so insane with all of the jamming.

 

[Bob Noel]

until drones can operate automonously without any comm (including external nav aids like GPS).... consider the problem of jamming/spoofing...

 

[Velocity173]

The Roadrunner that was shown just prior to your timestamp is one of the systems I've seen in action. Eh. The Pulsar, and another similar one of a different name, are quite effective and the tech is only getting better. It's still the classic cat and mouse game of one tech gets better, so the other finds a way to defeat it, so the defeat tech improves, continue ad nauseam. It's why we're starting to see fiberoptic drones in Ukraine, because the EM environment there is so insane with all of the jamming.

I always laugh when in the movies they make defensive countermeasures out to be an automatic lifesaver. Popping chaff / flares gives one a chance of survival against some systems but other systems more effective. Over time, countermeasures evolve against the more effective missile systems.

We had Gen 2 CMWS when I was in. Now there’s Gen 3 with DIRCM.

U.S. Army Awards New Common Missile Warning System FMS Contract To BAE Systems

The new $114 million Common Missile Warning System (CMWS) contract confirms the renovated focus on aircraft survivability against novel advanced threats.

theaviationist.com

 

[Corin]

I always laugh when in the movies they make defensive countermeasures out to be an automatic lifesaver. Popping chaff / flares gives one a chance of survival against some systems but other systems more effective. Over time, countermeasures evolve against the more effective missile systems.

We had Gen 2 CMWS when I was in. Now there’s Gen 3 with DIRCM.

U.S. Army Awards New Common Missile Warning System FMS Contract To BAE Systems

The new $114 million Common Missile Warning System (CMWS) contract confirms the renovated focus on aircraft survivability against novel advanced threats.

theaviationist.com

Its crazy how often I see blanket statements like, "Modern manpads bypass flares." Both flares and infrared homing are ever-evolving to outdo eachother.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Both flares and infrared homing are ever-evolving to outdo eachother.

Same principle applies to drones and counter-drone technologies. The main challenge is that drones are cheap, and thus numbers are overwhelming. Both Ukraine and Russia intend to procure at least 1 million drones this year. Even if counter-drone tech is 95% successful, that still leaves 50 thousand drones hitting their targets.

 

[Ed Haywood]

until drones can operate automonously without any comm (including external nav aids like GPS).... consider the problem of jamming/spoofing...

Not magic, and subject to significant limitations due to the inverse square law. Russia has invested in GPS jamming since the first gulf war, and they still can't protect their own capital from Ukrainian drones.

 

[Velocity173]

Its crazy how often I see blanket statements like, "Modern manpads bypass flares." Both flares and infrared homing are ever-evolving to outdo eachother.

Well there is some truth to that statement. I’ve talked to Stingers guys before and they will tell you their stuff can’t be jammed by flares. I’m sure that’s true for a lot of aircraft. Old school Stingers would just go to the hottest source. Now, they remember both IR and UV signatures of engines. But, I’ve heard the ATIRCM stuff is pretty good too.

 

[Sac Arrow]

All this is going to go away (manned, slow, and risky) and replaced with swarms of drones with multiple roles, from long range weapons and fuel carrying, to short range surveillance, support, and explosive drones.

Both sides of the Ukrainian war are using drones. A cheap Chinese FPV drone carrying a warhead is more effective than artillery, and at a fraction of the price of an artillery round.

 

[UngaWunga]

Both sides of the Ukrainian war are using drones. A cheap Chinese FPV drone carrying a warhead is more effective than artillery, and at a fraction of the price of an artillery round.

BAE doesn't like that... need to get those costs up!

 

[Velocity173]

They’re pushing the date earlier to 2028 and getting MV-22 experience.

Army aviators gain tiltrotor experience in MV-22, shape MV-75 doctrine

FORT RUCKER, Ala. — As the Army advances toward fielding the MV-75 Future Long Range Assault Aircraft (FLRAA), Army aviators are gaining hands-on experi...

www.army.mil

U.S. Army ‘doubling down’ on MV-75 program acceleration

The Army is accelerating the speed at which it wants to field the Bell MV-75 — formerly known as the Future Long Range Assault Aircraft.

verticalmag.com