Are we falling behind Europe?

[John Spartan]

Looking at the stuff being churned out of EASA it really seems like the FAA is way behind the curve. This end of LPA as a possibility and delay until 2025 for Mosaic really irks me. It’s disappointing to follow and not lead.

This looks beautiful and was my inspiration for wondering. Why is this not as an LPA here?
https://elixir-aircraft.com/en/4thgen

 

[Bell206]

It’s disappointing to follow and not lead.

It depends on how you define "leading" and "following." Professionally, the EU/EASA is a distant 2nd to the US in all aspects of aviation and especially the GA side. Given the entire EASA system is fee based and subsidy driven, you'll find the Elixir aircraft are probably operating on gov't money. Same process was tried in the US back in the 90s to bring "new technologies" into play with the NASA led AGATE program that gave Cirrus its start.

However, once the development funding ended and normal business economics takes over things change. And today, if you incorporate any environmental concerns into your concept there are huge monies available to take it to the next level. Unfortunately, most of these "new" concept aircraft have no realistic end game to further global GA and are usually at a price point 3x the cost of those old 172s. But hey it never hurts to look forward.

 

[John Spartan]

It depends on how you define "leading" and "following." Professionally, the EU/EASA is a distant 2nd to the US in all aspects of aviation and especially the GA side. Given the entire EASA system is fee based and subsidy driven, you'll find the Elixir aircraft are probably operating on gov't money. Same process was tried in the US back in the 90s to bring "new technologies" into play with the NASA led AGATE program that gave Cirrus its start.

However, once the development funding ended and normal business economics takes over things change. And today, if you incorporate any environmental concerns into your concept there are huge monies available to take it to the next level. Unfortunately, most of these "new" concept aircraft have no realistic end game to further global GA and are usually at a price point 3x the cost of those old 172s. But hey it never hurts to look forward.

they are indeed funded by some European grants. It is denoted at the bottom.

these days those old 172s are 3x the cost of those old 172s. I feel REALLY late to the game dreaming if plane ownership. Lol

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

The light market is big(ger) in Europe because anything else is cost prohibitive from an opex standpoint over there. That same market doesn't exist over here because we have less restrictions/costs on our flying.

 

[John Spartan]

The light market is big(ger) in Europe because anything else is cost prohibitive from an opex standpoint over there. That same market doesn't exist over here because we have less restrictions/costs on our flying.

well, that feels like it may be changing. They cannot dump gas cars and let planes go unscathed.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

well, that feels like it may be changing. They cannot dump gas cars and let planes go unscathed.

They do a lot of glider flying over there. No gas required.

 

[Bell206]

I feel REALLY late to the game dreaming if plane ownership. Lol

Never too late. A solid 1/3rd of the available aircraft never make it to the public domain. If you really want to own a plane at a respectable cost it takes more personal engagement in the process now. The days of perusing TAP or Barnstormers for those barn-find deals are basically gone in this market. But those deals still exist. Just takes a larger personal network, a solid plan, and patience to make it happen.

well, that feels like it may be changing.

FYI: The EU aviation industry beats to a different drum. Even though they are a "union," member states still have individual clout. However, not all EASA members are EU members. So what may be happing in one EU state doesn't mean its widespread. For example, ever since the JAA was renamed the EASA 20 years ago they've been trying to stop private N reg aircraft from being owned/operated in the EU. And so far they haven't because not all members want that change. If those EU N reg rules do become regulations, it will be the single most important change in the European aviation community and will probably change every other associated private GA rules as well with not very positive results. If you think the FAA is a bunch of deaf, aviation-illiterate bureaucrats, the EASA clan wrote the book, made the movie, and got the T-shirt on how to screw up anything aviation related.

 

[frfly172]

They are definitely surging ahead of the US in the light sport game. In this country we gave too much faith that the FAA could get the mosaic program up and running in a timely manner.

 

[Daleandee]

They are definitely surging ahead of the US in the light sport game. In this country we gave too much faith that the FAA could get the mosaic program up and running in a timely manner.

I'm certain that Mark Baker and the team are on it ... oh wait!

 

[Bell206]

They are definitely surging ahead of the US in the light sport game.

It depends on how you quantify that surging. In general, the US aviation market consists of 80% GA aircraft and 20% of what would be considered light sport aircraft. In the EU its the opposite with 80% light sport and 20% GA. Hence the "surge" in light sport offerings in the EU. If there was a comparible light market in the US it would be surging right along with the EU. But as mentioned above the main reason the EU light aircraft market is so large is its the only economic route for most private citizens to enjoy flying.

 

[John Spartan]

It depends on how you quantify that surging. In general, the US aviation market consists of 80% GA aircraft and 20% of what would be considered light sport aircraft. In the EU its the opposite with 80% light sport and 20% GA. Hence the "surge" in light sport offerings in the EU. If there was a comparible light market in the US it would be surging right along with the EU. But as mentioned above the main reason the EU light aircraft market is so large is its the only economic route for most private citizens to enjoy flying.

With regards to LSA that makes the point solidly. EU has retracts and constant speed props and way more speed. It appears to have no real negative effect on flight safety. In other words, it make the FAA failure to adopt the changes wanted in Mosaic that much more disappointing.

 

[Bell206]

With regards to LSA that makes the point solidly. EU has retracts and constant speed props and way more speed. It appears to have no real negative effect on flight safety. In other words, it make the FAA failure to adopt the changes wanted in Mosaic that much more disappointing.

The point is it has nothing to do with safety. If you want to blame someone for the “failure” of Mosaic you need only look to congress and the drone/UAV industry. The EU light sport market doesn’t have such problems.

Just like the legal process of the Part 23 rewrite caused the dropping of the primary non-commercial aircraft category from being funded/passed, a similar problem happened to Mosaic not being funded/passed. Bottomline drone incorporation to the national airspace won out over Mosaic for the available FAA funds.

The numbers speak for themselves. There are over 300K commercial drones registered in the US with double that number in recreational drones. The number of all aircraft registered is just past 200k which only about 10% are true light sports. In other words, a 20,000 recreational aircraft market/lobby force/economic anomaly lost out to a 300,000 commercial drone market/lobby force and economical power house. It is what it is.

 

[John Spartan]

The point is it has nothing to do with safety. If you want to blame someone for the “failure” of Mosaic you need only look to congress and the drone/UAV industry. The EU light sport market doesn’t have such problems.

Just like the legal process of the Part 23 rewrite caused the dropping of the primary non-commercial aircraft category from being funded/passed, a similar problem happened to Mosaic not being funded/passed. Bottomline drone incorporation to the national airspace won out over Mosaic for the available FAA funds.

The numbers speak for themselves. There are over 300K commercial drones registered in the US with double that number in recreational drones. The number of all aircraft registered is just past 200k which only about 10% are true light sports. In other words, a 20,000 recreational aircraft market/lobby force/economic anomaly lost out to a 300,000 commercial drone market/lobby force and economical power house. It is what it is.

How many drones do we need in order to carry me from Phoenix to Las Vegas exactly? I get what you’re saying but what purpose does the drone fleet even serve? General aviation feeds the pilot market for ATP.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

I travelled to various European countries about a 5-15 times per year for about 15 years. I had not been back since 2016 until this summer. I’ve seen a lot of change and advances over those years, and especially a noticeable change the last 5-6 years since my last travels. In some ways our steadfast traditions here, especially our pride of “we do it best”, keeps some of the advances at bay, or at least more delayed. We need to step it up. Just a stark observation I noted this summer.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

How many drones do we need in order to carry me from Phoenix to Las Vegas exactly? I get what you’re saying but what purpose does the drone fleet even serve? General aviation feeds the pilot market for ATP.

One drone, one vote, more or less.

 

[Bell206]

How many drones do we need in order to carry me from Phoenix to Las Vegas exactly?

Currently one if the half dozen or so developers get their products certified in the next few years.

what purpose does the drone fleet even serve?

More than you can imagine. Commercial drones are replacing certain commercial aircraft at a surprising rate. If there is a way to use a drone over an aircraft its being done or developed. For example, they’re using drones to spray crops in Japan, flying more pipeline/powerline patrols here plus a number of other jobs that once were flown by aircraft.

Every job taken by a drone cuts into the infrastructure of GA which in turn cuts into the support system for your average weekend warrior flyer. While I don’t specifically follow the light sport market, I do follow the turbine helicopter side and the same dynamics are in play. The difference is the helicopter lobby spends millions and is still taking a back seat to the drone lobby who are only eclipsed by the airline lobbyists. End result is there is no federal funds left to get new LSA upgrades approved.

General aviation feeds the pilot market for ATP.

Statistically, from the reports I've seen, flight schools feed the commercial market. Private GA (Part 91) feeds the needs of individuals for the most part. And if things continue on their present course, simulators will be cut further into the private GA side route and provide a direct path to an ATP.

 

[Bell206]

In some ways our steadfast traditions here, especially our pride of “we do it best”, keeps some of the advances at bay, or at least more delayed. We need to step it up.

As I’ve mentioned, it depends on where you stand in the food chain. From the industry side, the FAA is light years ahead of the EASA. For example, after 20 years trying, the EASA finally codified a single rule to cover pilot/owner maintenance on certain aircraft that covered all member countries. And if you think that move was a “step up” then be careful what you wish for over here.

But keep in mind, while you can cherry pick specific areas out of the EASA system, there is no direct comparison to the FAA system for the simple fact the FAA system is funded by tax dollars which have congressional oversight. And who “directs” congress how to spend those funds? Lobbyists and constituents. And who “speaks” for most of the POA clan at that level… AOPA and the EAA.

Yet there are threads on PoA debating whether to remain an AOPA member or not. The only route to Mosaic or primary non commercial is via a “voice” in the congress to put some money aside for those efforts. This is no different then how the basic med came to be. The EASA/EU doesn't have this problem as no "tax" dollars are used. They simply decide what they want then develop a fee structure to pay for it by the people those rules directly affect. And the last thing you want here is a fee based system in place like the majority of the world is going to.

 

[John Spartan]

Currently one if the half dozen or so developers get their products certified in the next few years.

More than you can imagine. Commercial drones are replacing certain commercial aircraft at a surprising rate. If there is a way to use a drone over an aircraft its being done or developed. For example, they’re using drones to spray crops in Japan, flying more pipeline/powerline patrols here plus a number of other jobs that once were flown by aircraft.

Every job taken by a drone cuts into the infrastructure of GA which in turn cuts into the support system for your average weekend warrior flyer. While I don’t specifically follow the light sport market, I do follow the turbine helicopter side and the same dynamics are in play. The difference is the helicopter lobby spends millions and is still taking a back seat to the drone lobby who are only eclipsed by the airline lobbyists. End result is there is no federal funds left to get new LSA upgrades approved.

Statistically, from the reports I've seen, flight schools feed the commercial market. Private GA (Part 91) feeds the needs of individuals for the most part. And if things continue on their present course, simulators will be cut further into the private GA side route and provide a direct path to an ATP.

Beyond disturbing. So GA is dead or dying? Drones will replace GA? Wouldn’t surprise me.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Beyond disturbing. So GA is dead or dying? Drones will replace GA? Wouldn’t surprise me.

GA has been dying in the US for years.

And yes, drones are replacing several functions in GA as previously mentioned.