Archer II - Short Field

[asechrest]

Hi folks.

I’m considering a trip with the family to Everglades Airpark (X01). It would be, by quite a bit, the shortest runway I have operated on. I trained in a 172 at an airport where the shortest runway I operated from was 4,700ft. Recently I joined a club that operates an Archer II from a runway of 3,300ft. Everglades Airpark is 2,400ft. I am a low-time pilot with 100hrs.

Would like to just post the thought process I’m going through so folks can comment, especially those with Archer II experience.

The airport has a single asphalt runway 15/33, 2400 x 60 ft with takeoff and approach over the water. Runway 15 has obstructions -- 39 ft. trees, 1235 ft from runway, 26:1 slope to clear -- which looks to me to be a little tree island in the water. No obstructions for 33.

The weekend is forecast to have a high temp for the day of 85F, so let’s be conservative and use 90F = 32C. Forecast winds to be 5 knots or so and varying in direction during the day.

The plane is a 1977 Piper Archer II – PA-28-181. Gross weight is 2550 lbs and with full fuel, the girlfriend, two kids, and 50 lbs in the baggage department, I’ll be 2300 lbs or less. CG well within limits. I’d be using short field takeoffs and landings. The POH calls for:

SHORT FIELD, OBSTACLE CLEARANCE
Flaps 25 deg (second notch)
Accelerate to 41 – 49 KIAS depending on weight
Rotate
After breaking ground, accelerate to 45 – 54 KIAS depending on weight
Accelerate to best flaps up angle of climb speed – 64 KIAS, slowly retract flaps and climb past obstacle
Accelerate to best flaps up rate of climb speed – 75 KIAS

With basically no real obstacles since takeoff is over the water, I’ve been focusing on the ground roll chart for the 25 degree flaps takeoff. Using 32C, sea level, 2300 lbs, and no wind, gives a ground roll of less than 1000 ft. This leaves tons of wiggle room. Seems fine. (Takeoff over a 50ft obstacle would be less than 1700ft, still fine. )

Similar charting for the landing shows a hair less than 900 foot ground roll performance, and a bit less than 1,400 feet landing performance over a 50 foot barrier. Like many flights, the landing is the tough part and what I’m focusing on. I don’t have a lot of true short field experience but for all of my landings I try to use the POH short field technique with the exception of maximum braking.

--

In summary, this seems well within the abilities of the plane. But it's the loose nut behind the wheel that's usually the limiting factor, and I am a low-time pilot and want to be conservative. If we opt to make the trip I’ll probably start out by doing pattern work with short field landings at the home base just to get in the groove before setting off to the destination.

Those of you with Archer II experience, what short runways have you operated out of?

Thanks.

[EDIT] - Fixed fond and display issues.

 

[steingar]

My Cherokee has less uumph than your Archer and I'd do it on a bad day. Heck, Put in Bay (3W2) is about that length and occluded by the Perry monument. 6Y9 is about that size if not smaller, and grass and occluded on both ends by trees. I just wouldn't try and get out over the trees with a full load on a hot day.

 

[MAKG1]

With no obstacles, you can do a normal takeoff. 2400 feet is not a short field.

Just like a 172, you can be off the ground in less than 1000 feet on a standard day.

My home airport is also 2400 feet. I have never even come close to the end of the runway. Not even halfway there on a stupid hot day. In any airplane I've tried. 152, 172 (three flavors), 177, 182, Warrior and Archer (II, just like yours) were all tried. The worst takeoff was a no-flap takeoff in the 177 (they really prefer 10 deg flap), and that was still short of the halfway mark.

FYI, there was a JET on the ramp yesterday (I think it was a Citation, not sure, but it had two small rear mounted jet engines). And two King Airs run charter service. You have a lot of room. Just don't land with a tailwind or scary high speed. At that loading, 60 KIAS approach ought to be fine at full flap, maybe even less.

 

[Mike5250]

I've flown in to x01 many times, great airport! If you can buy some fuel they give you the bikes for free, or you can rent them for $5 a bike. I did my solo cc's there and took friends for lunch a few times close to gross weight without issues.

Our flying club also had an Archer II that had a useful load of almost 1000 lbs and they always kept fuel topped off.

 

[EdFred]

Johnson bar for flaps or electric?

 

[tlrussell]

landed with multiple aircraft there. Saw a SR22 almost put it in the water doing a flat approach. Be careful and expect to go missed once.

 

[Unit74]

No problem....that field is doable easy peasy.

 

[MAKG1]

Johnson bar for flaps or electric?

A '77 Archer has a "parking brake."

Some of them have electric trim, but not electric flaps.

That's the same model and year I did my second PA28 checkout in (different FBO).

With only two up front, the stall speed is noticeably lower than the white and green arcs say. Almost 5 knots.

 

[Hobobiker]

Like you, I'm a low-time pilot and trained in an Archer II. I agree with those above, unless DA really gets up there on a hot/humid day I wouldn't have any reservations. I might REALLY be listening for any odd engine noises as I began my takeoff roll just knowing that I had less room (than my 5000-foot home drome runways) to "shut her down" if necessary...

Best of luck...sounds like fun!

 

[Unit74]

just FYI..... I have found that as soon as you touch down dump the flaps and use aerodynamic braking. otherwise on the archer any back pressure with flaps out will put you back in the air.

 

[asechrest]

Thanks everyone. While I know the decision is solely mine, when you're low-time it's nice to have some other folks confirm your thought process.

 

[EdFred]

And on take off, no flaps until you hit 50mph, then go to 25 degrees of flaps.

 

[AdamZ]

Shortest I've done is 1956' in a PA28-140 with the 160 engine, so for me it would be doable. One thing I'd ask is the less weight the better so I'm curious if you need full fuel? When I was low time I did fly full fuel most of the time as I was neurotic about fuel exhaustion. As I flew more and more and got comfortable ( thank you Gary Shelby) I almost never fly with full fuel. But you may need it, I don't know.

 

[MAKG1]

Like you, I'm a low-time pilot and trained in an Archer II. I agree with those above, unless DA really gets up there on a hot/humid day I wouldn't have any reservations. I might REALLy be listening for any odd engine noises as I began my takeoff roll just knowing that I had less room (than my 5000-foot home drome runways) to "shut her down" if necessary...

Best of luck...sounds like fun!

Rather than listen for odd noises, check the full throttle RPM. It's a good practice anyway. If it won't make 2325 RPM at zero or near zero speed, abort the takeoff.

Avoid the common mistake of switching tanks right before takeoff or in the pattern. The POH can easily be misread to say you should (but it doesn't actually say that). If you screw up, you'll be at a real bad altitude to find that out.

 

[AdamZ]

And on take off, no flaps until you hit 50mph, then go to 25 degrees of flaps.

Heh yea that's like an elevator. Love doing that on a cold day, light ,in the Cherokee . Man what an initial climb angle!

 

[MAKG1]

just FYI..... I have found that as soon as you touch down dump the flaps and use aerodynamic braking. otherwise on the archer any back pressure with flaps out will put you back in the air.

On a 2400 foot strip?

Just make a normal landing. That's plenty.

If "any back pressure" puts you back in the air, you're touching down too fast. Just like in a Cessna, the stall warning should go off prior to touchdown, and you should maintain back pressure until taxi speed.

Remember, the stall speed is lowered when flying light, which is real easy to do in an Archer when you're used to a Warrior or 172.

 

[MAKG1]

Honestly, the biggest hazard on this flight is the somewhat narrow runway. If you're used to 150 foot runways, 60 feet may cause you to flare very late. If you're good at 75 foot runways, it's much less of an issue.

The runway length is not a factor. Really, 2400 unobstructed feet is a lot. I'd insist on touching down in the first half of the runway or going around (don't force it!), but that's really not that difficult unless you approach hot as hell.

 

[asechrest]

I've flown in to x01 many times, great airport! If you can buy some fuel they give you the bikes for free, or you can rent them for $5 a bike. I did my solo cc's there and took friends for lunch a few times close to gross weight without issues.

Our flying club also had an Archer II that had a useful load of almost 1000 lbs and they always kept fuel topped off.

Yep, we plan on biking into town for a nice lunch. Will probably just pay the $5 bike rental, though. Home field is only 30 min away and club fuel is on credit there.

Do you know if they rent kids bikes there? If not I'm going to try to fit the kids' bikes into the Archer.

 

[cowman]

I fly a '78 Archer II.

From experience and without calculating anything, under the conditions you described I would expect you have around 1000' more runway than you need.

A note on the short field procedure though.. I trained in this airplane with a CFI used to 172s. We followed the same procedure you quoted from the POH with a little margin. Rotating at 50kts, accelerating to 55, then pitching for Vx of 65kts and backing out the flaps incrementally. The acceleration comes very fast after rotation... for all practical purposes you end up just accelerating straight to 65kts this way.

For landing I believe the specified approach speed is 75kts and 66kts short final. This is also what I did with my CFI and it worked just fine.

However, on my check ride I got an examiner who was a real Archer lover and owned several of them. He told me after demonstrating it that he didn't like that procedure at all and threw in "it was a cessna guy who taught you that wasn't it". He then demonstrated one... he didn't look at the airspeed indicator on takeoff saying "the airplane will let me know when it's ready" but I observed it to be at 60kts which is my normal rotation speed. He said to use 75-80kts for an approach speed and short final should be around 70. The guy seemed to know his stuff so this is what I now go with out in the real world.

I would def go out and fly solo or better yet with an experienced Archer pilot or CFI being low time and all, but I think you'll have a pretty easy time. I switched from a 172 to my Archer II about 25hrs into my training and it felt like everything just got put on "easy" mode. Johnson bar is no big deal, just remember to turn on your fuel pump for takeoff/landing and to switch tanks in flight(no both setting on low wings).

 

[asechrest]

And on take off, no flaps until you hit 50mph, then go to 25 degrees of flaps.

With respect, I'm tempted to follow the POH to the letter on short field takeoff rather than throwing a new task into it.

Shortest I've done is 1956' in a PA28-140 with the 160 engine, so for me it would be doable. One thing I'd ask is the less weight the better so I'm curious if you need full fuel? When I was low time I did fly full fuel most of the time as I was neurotic about fuel exhaustion. As I flew more and more and got comfortable ( thank you Gary Shelby) I almost never fly with full fuel. But you may need it, I don't know.

I don't need full fuel but it's likely already too late unless I defuel or a club member flies it this week.

Honestly, the biggest hazard on this flight is the somewhat narrow runway. If you're used to 150 foot runways, 60 feet may cause you to flare very late. If you're good at 75 foot runways, it's much less of an issue.

The runway length is not a factor. Really, 2400 unobstructed feet is a lot. I'd insist on touching down in the first half of the runway or going around, but that's really not that difficult unless you approach hot as hell.

I'm used to 100 and 150. I'll keep this in mind. Thanks. My final approach speed target in the Archer II has been 66 knots per the POH. Though I do recognize that's likely figured for gross weight. I flew two weekends ago and my final glance at the ASI on short final was 60 KIAS. The stall warning horn sounded as I rounded out above the runway. I was alone, but felt it to be a bit slow, and will probably target 66 again.

 

[MAKG1]

For landing I believe the specified approach speed is 75kts and 66kts short final. This is also what I did with my CFI and it worked just fine.

That's exactly what the POH says.

It's for maximum gross weight.

The proposed flight is 10% under gross. Reduce approach speeds by half that, 5%, as that's how the stall speed behaves.

That's 62 knots short final.

The difference is all float.

60 KIAS is exactly what I do in an Archer solo, with full flap.

If it's dangerously slow, you'll lose sight of the runway on final. Archers have somewhat big snouts (nothing like a 177, though).

 

[asechrest]

I fly a '78 Archer II.

From experience and without calculating anything, under the conditions you described I would expect you have around 1000' more runway than you need.

A note on the short field procedure though.. I trained in this airplane with a CFI used to 172s. We followed the same procedure you quoted from the POH with a little margin. Rotating at 50kts, accelerating to 55, then pitching for Vx of 65kts and backing out the flaps incrementally. The acceleration comes very fast after rotation... for all practical purposes you end up just accelerating straight to 65kts this way.

For landing I believe the specified approach speed is 75kts and 66kts short final. This is also what I did with my CFI and it worked just fine.

However, on my check ride I got an examiner who was a real Archer lover and owned several of them. He told me after demonstrating it that he didn't like that procedure at all and threw in "it was a cessna guy who taught you that wasn't it". He then demonstrated one... he didn't look at the airspeed indicator on takeoff saying "the airplane will let me know when it's ready" but I observed it to be at 60kts which is my normal rotation speed. He said to use 75-80kts for an approach speed and short final should be around 70. The guy seemed to know his stuff so this is what I now go with out in the real world.

I would def go out and fly solo or better yet with an experienced Archer pilot or CFI being low time and all, but I think you'll have a pretty easy time. I switched from a 172 to my Archer II about 25hrs into my training and it felt like everything just got put on "easy" mode. Johnson bar is no big deal, just remember to turn on your fuel pump for takeoff/landing and to switch tanks in flight(no both setting on low wings).

Thanks Cowman. There are some things I really like about the Piper as compared to the 172. Approach and landing are incredibly stable in this thing. Crosswind landings are much more docile. I'm in love with the Johnson bar flaps. The single door and the lack of shade provided by the wings are my only true complaints.

 

[pilot_dude]

And on take off, no flaps until you hit 50mph, then go to 25 degrees of flaps.

Took the words right out of my mouth (finger tips)

 

[frfly172]

love that airport,plenty of climb out room.if your worried about the take off leave some fuel behind. pumps are self serve.relax and nail the landing.

 

[cowman]

And on take off, no flaps until you hit 50mph, then go to 25 degrees of flaps.

Interesting. Is the goal of this to reduce drag until the last possible moment so you accelerate a little faster?

 

[EdFred]

Interesting. Is the goal of this to reduce drag until the last possible moment so you accelerate a little faster?

That is correct.

 

[Bonchie]

2400ft is not an issue in a Cherokee. Coming or going.

 

[eman1200]

first time I flew an archer was to 5NC3, 2538' x 36'...came in too fast, floated and floated and floated and floated and still had a tiny little bit of extra room. 2400', 2500' does not feel like a short field for me, but I trained out of a 2800' strip. just NAIL your speeds.


oh, and I'd love a pirep on this, I think I saw this mentioned in one of the magazines I get and it got me thinking maybe I'd take my parents here for lunch.

 

[mrkbbd]

Hummel field in VA has less than 2,300 ft and big stuff can get into and out of there - a 180hp archer shouldn't have a problem

 

[Bonchie]

Hummel field in VA has less than 2,300 ft and big stuff can get into and out of there - a 180hp archer shouldn't have a problem

I think it's 2200ft.

I landed there once in a Cherokee 140. No issues at all.

Really, I've found that I land much better and nail my spots on shorter fields. Never had any issues.

But put me on a 4,000ft runway and I'm gonna float that baby. Probably because I trained on a 2500x40ft runway at VKX and my depth perception is so used to skinny runways.

 

[poadeleted20]

Interesting. Is the goal of this to reduce drag until the last possible moment so you accelerate a little faster?

Perhaps, but it's not something I'd recommend. You don't need to be reaching for something else at that point in the takeoff. If the field is so short that this makes the difference, it's too bloody short.

In any event, if the shortest runway the OP has ever used is 5000 feet or something like that, then I think this would not be a good idea without additional training or at least a graduated series of steps on shorter and shorter runways.

 

[Ark235B]

My suggestion is mark the length with some survey flags on your home runway. Then practice until you are comfortable with the length. Take a CFI with you who can coach you on technique.

 

[asechrest]

Perhaps, but it's not something I'd recommend. You don't need to be reaching for something else at that point in the takeoff. If the field is so short that this makes the difference, it's too bloody short.

In any event, if the shortest runway the OP has ever used is 5000 feet or something like that, then I think this would not be a good idea without additional training or at least a graduated series of steps on shorter and shorter runways.

Thanks for the comment, Ron. My club is based out of North Perry (KHWO) with a 3,300 x 100 foot runway. I've had a bunch of landings there now.

 

[coloradobluesky]

There is a big difference landing on the first 1000' of a 3000' runway and landing on a 1000' runway. If you screw it up on the 3000' runway, you just say "aw shucks". If you screw it up on the 1000' runway, well, you know, its BAD.

Also, how close to the very beginning of the runway can you land? If it is downhill away from the runway, you can land pretty close (flare over the grass). But you still can't land right on the end, reliably anyway. There are many other factors like this (go around considerations). ANY obstacle near the beginning of the runway has to be cleared by 5' or so (NOT 0 feet), so a 5' obstacle means 10' high. At 500fmp and 60mph (a mile a minute) that will eat up like 100' of runway. So don't confuse "landing roll" with "over a XX' obstacle". Also, elevation matters.

You need to operate on a "worst case scenario", which is YOUR worst case.

I always say I need TWICE the distance. So if its unobstructed and I have a 500' roll, I want 1000'. It's supposed to be FUN, not life and death every landing. .... . 1000' is plenty short, lemme tell you.

 

[MAKG1]

Thanks for the comment, Ron. My club is based out of North Perry (KHWO) with a 3,300 x 100 foot runway. I've had a bunch of landings there now.

Treat the cross-runways (19L or 28R) as though they were the end of the runway. See how you do. That looks like about 1600-1800 feet.

Hint: Touch down as close to, but not ahead of, the threshold as you can. NOT the VASI. Brake to a slow taxi or turnoff prior to crossing the cross-runway.

I predict it's a nonevent. You won't even need that much braking, possibly none at all. Be on speed with full flap and touch down with power idle (if you need power to correct fast sink, pull it off after the mains touch, then try again until you don't need it).

 

[MAKG1]

I always say I need TWICE the distance. So if its unobstructed and I have a 500' roll, I want 1000'. It's supposed to be FUN, not life and death every landing. .... . 1000' is plenty short, lemme tell you.

Yes, but he has 2400.

That has your factor of two, no problem.

I agree a factor of two is real nice. Much more important is to have an abort point and stick to it.

 

[asechrest]

Here's North Perry: https://www.google.com/maps/place/N...2!3m1!1s0x88d9ab9b3529a797:0x50d2b626a454bae3

Two weekends ago, landing RWY 28L, I made the third turnoff with my normal landing. I believe I could have made the second with a full short field approach using max aerodynamic and wheel braking. That is 1300ft and 900ft respectively.

I'll post the video of my landing if ya'll will forgive its ugliness. I had a bit of a squirrely right crosswind and could have handled it a bit better at touchdown.

 

[asechrest]

Alright, here's my landing two weekends ago. Fairly typical approach speed for me, targeted 60 KIAS on short final. Wind was 11 knots from the right, not direct. Not my best landing and this was my first approach from the east side of the field. Approach was too flat, throttle use was a bit erratic on final as a result, relaxed my crosswind correction a bit before touchdown, and didn't hold the nose off.

That being said, my point in posting is to show a bit of pseudo short field work. If this landing had been at X01, I'd have had 1000 ft to spare and that's after a nice coasting to my turnoff. This landing was a bit worse than average for me as it was my first in about four weeks with a reasonable crosswind.

I am leaning toward making this trip, with a focus on landing setup and speeds, and an immediate go around if I don't feel good about the approach. I'll also start the trip with a couple times in the pattern at home base to get a feel for the short field work with the plane loaded up.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Crosswind landings tend to eat up more runway.

 

[Clark1961]

you'll do fine - you're closer to your training than most of us spam can drivers and you're doing your homework

I ran across a guy yesterday who departed downwind and uphill - the winds were light for Wyoming, only about 10 knots. The guy was in a Maule so it was no big deal, just a little surprising...