Appropriate avionics upgrade for a 9,700 hour '76' Archer II

tceq24443

tceq24443

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cyberbryan
Opinions wanted:
I have a 1976 Piper Archer II, owned a little over a year & flys great, IFR certified, paid between $25-35K for it when I bought it. I fly about 100 hours a year traveling and the airplane in future will be used for my IFR training. maybe commercial and CFI, also for daughters training.

Currently, has mid time engine and 9700 hours, with much old stuff in it. Narco 122s, GMA 340, SL40, Ky197a, adf, Narco transponder, Century II, all steam gauges. I would like to install:

GPS, preferably WAAS.
replace ky197a.
ADSB out
Tru trak or similiar autopilot
Garmin g5 or aspen e5

Question what is to rich for this airplane and yes I know I will not get my money back for any avionics when I sell. However I feel that adding high end avionics like gtn650 or IFD440 and such would be to rich for the airplane.

Any advice appreciated
 
Look for a used GNS430 WAAS or GNS 530 WAAS. Some are being traded in now. I know there are special things you need to follow so Garmin will sell the STC to install. Just make sure you know that process BEFORE you buy it.

A single Aspen would be the cheapest choice, a dual Aspen 1500 is largely matching the functionality of a G500. A dual Aspen 2000, or three Aspen 2500 expands on the functionality beyond the G500 by offer reversion capability.

For ADS-B, I have not kept up.

To maximize sale value, requires more labor by cutting the panel and making the avionics look integrated as a complete solution and moving any gauges left behind to be placed in a logical configuration. Related, if you go for an Aspen 2000 or 2500; you actually reduce some clutter and wight by removing the vacuum system.

The last item to consider is getting an engine monitor.

Good luck,

Tim
 
How long are you going to keep the plane, sounds like a while. I figure that you get about 50% increase in value on what you spend on avionics. This is a problem for some, but you will get the use out of them and it will be set up the way you want.

My advice is to figure out what you want and put a price to it. Then look at the market and see what you can find in a similar plane equipped the way you want. I expect the similar equipped plane will be cheaper, but there is value in not have to buy/sell and you know what you currently have. Just have to look at the cost delta and decide what make sense. Might be a good time to upgrade planes if that is of any interest to you.
 
tceq24443 said:
Opinions wanted:
I have a 1976 Piper Archer II, owned a little over a year & flys great, IFR certified, paid between $25-35K for it when I bought it. I fly about 100 hours a year traveling and the airplane in future will be used for my IFR training. maybe commercial and CFI, also for daughters training.

Currently, has mid time engine and 9700 hours, with much old stuff in it. Narco 122s, GMA 340, SL40, Ky197a, adf, Narco transponder, Century II, all steam gauges. I would like to install:

GPS, preferably WAAS.
replace ky197a.
ADSB out
Tru trak or similiar autopilot
Garmin g5 or aspen e5

Question what is to rich for this airplane and yes I know I will not get my money back for any avionics when I sell. However I feel that adding high end avionics like gtn650 or IFD440 and such would be to rich for the airplane.

Any advice appreciated
Click to expand...

Nothing in your plan is too rich, just shop prices and be hands on in the planes mx

Personally I'd wait till 2020 or later depending on the airspace you're in to get a ADSB out, lots of the chasing the jones types will be selling their perfectly good ADSB stuff to get the "latest greatest"

I also am not sure about the G5/Aspen, it looks cool, it will remove your vac system, but as for being worth over 10k, especially with how primitive their eHSI display is, I'm just not sure. The Dynon skyview should be rolling out to more and more planes pretty sure, that might be worth a look.

A/P is for sure needed for real single pilot IFR, again think there was something about the skyview that helps with that.

The GNS boxes are still and look to be the industry standard for a while, I'd keep a eye out for a good deal on a 430W or 530W.
 
One way to figure out what is “too rich” is just look at airplane prices on airplanes that already have all of that stuff done, even if it’s just “similar” avionics to your desired setup and you wouldn’t buy it.

I don’t think the GTN is outrageous IF, and it’s a big IF... IF you’re going to use it for real IFR in IMC. And you have to be somewhat realistic about whether you will or not. Not everything is flyable IMC for that airframe.

So you need to look at your business routes (the only flights you KINDA have to take, any personal flight can always be cancelled and frankly any business flight is also “cancelled in bad weather until you see a reason it can be done safely” — and analyze how often the route is flyable IMC for that airplane.

Next up, remember you can do the upgrades in stages. You don’t have to go straight to having the autopilot or large screens on day one. Putting a GTN in the panel for us along with a Flightstream 510 and upgrading our dying 40 year old transponder gave us quite a bit of “toys” as well as tablet integration to fly behind and figure out and practice on. If you’re not planning on hours and hours and hours of solid IMC, maybe the autopilot and he fancy screen comes later.

And of course don’t overlook the possible cost effectiveness of the G5 instead of the big screen or Aspen. It’s a decent option. But you do need to plan whether or not it can drive the autopilot since it’s likely to remain mostly a Garmin autopilot only driver for a while. Maybe forever.

There’s random thoughts for you. Hope it helps. We went GTN650 plus Flightstream (that also indirectly gets you as big a screen as you want, just buy a bigger tablet) and the GTX345 transponder for the ADS-B out and in, and stopped there for the moment.

If a gyro or the vacuum pump failed tomorrow dual G5 would likely go on order immediately.

And then maybe at the same time or later, the Garmin AP.

All depends on how much our wallets whined at each step.

And we’re 200 away from the 1500 TBO on the O-470 so that’s “coming” and could also be the “tomorrow” problem instead of the gyros. So we’re watching. You have a benefit there being mid-time if all goes well.
 
I purchased a relatively low-time 1979 Archer II (2950 hrs) in August 2015. Beautiful aircraft, but was "old" avionics-wise. Over the past 3 years I've upgraded to GTN-650 + WAAS GPS, GTX 345 ADS-B in/out, S-TEC 30 Autopilot to replace original issue autopilot, Flightstream data transfer, JPI 830 engine monitor. Has cost me about $35K, but when flying the system IFR it is so worth it. I know I'll never recoup the $$$ spent, but who cares? If you're going to take instrument training you'll soon see how fatigued you'll be trying to hand fly everything and try to manage the single pilot cockpit workload. The other reason to invest in modern tech is simply safety. If you get stuck in clouds for more than 30 minutes, you're going to be really challenged doing it all by hand as a single pilot. And you can count on being a victim of spatial disorientation at some point. Happens to even the most seasoned pilots. Sure is nice to have a reliable autopilot system, coupled to a WAAS GPS to help you get your bearings and work your way through the problem. I'm 63, retired, and fly about 200 hours/year. To my school of thought any investment in your personal flight safety is a wise move. Don't look at the investment strictly as dollars & cents, but rather your overall longevity!
 
I get the GPS and autopilot upgrades but the rest seems like a waste of money unless your steam gauges are going out. Regardless, don't expect to get much of your money back from Avionics upgrades. Anymore a WAAS gps and ADSB are expected in a 35k airplane where they used to be luxury items on much more expensive ones.
 
I am going through the same process with my airplane. However, my 1999 DA20-C1 is not and never will be certified for IFR. This is what I am planning for now, which translates to roughly one third of the airplane's value.

New PSE 8000G audio panel (For noise reduction, Bluetooth phone and music, USB port)
Dual G5s
Used Garmin 430W
Stratus ES transponder

Sure a Garmin 750 or an IFD 540 would be on my dream list, but my wallet does not approve. And by the time I have the money for these nice things, it's going to be time to upgrade to an IFR airplane anyway.
 
Whatever you put in the airplane will be too rich, it just doesn't matter. You don't upgrade an airplane because it makes good financial sense. Indeed, if you need this to make financial sense, get out of aviation right now.
 
I second the "wait for the Dynon STC" option. For about 25k, installed, you'll have a fantastic setup. Add an IFR navigator (SL30, GNS430W, etc) and it will tie into the Dynon.

Of course, I am partial. Now I need that IFR navigator.

fsvUAOnh.jpg

tltDn5sh.jpg
 
I have a ‘78 Archer with 11k hours. I’m in the same boat. Old avionics, and looking for some cool add ons to make life easier.

Being realistic, nothing I do to this plane is going to up the resale value. Any upgrades I’m doing strictly for me. To make my flying safer and my life easier.

I’m currently budgeting for ads-b out and in, and a new audio panel. That will happen at the end of this year.

I’d love an EFIS such as the Garmin G5 or Aspen E5. But to get either working with my STEC 60-1 autopilot is a fortune.

The Garmin G5 requires a 430w or newer to provide heading to the autopilot. The Aspen requires the $1000 ACU. So that brings the equipment price to $6k. The cheaper option for me to keep my autopilot and add an EFIS is the Aspen. While I would like a 430w. I just don’t see the math adding up. I’m not going to be flying hard IFR. I don’t even have my IFR rating yet. I’m going to need to overhaul the engine in about 3-5 years at the rate I’ve been flying. And there are cosmetic upgrades i’d really like to make to the interior and exterior.

What’s unfortunate is that RNAV approach capability is a minimum $10k-$15k investment.
 
"What’s unfortunate is that RNAV approach capability is a minimum $10k-$15k investment." Yep that is the root issue and its all about the investment required for certification.
 
NordicDave said:
I'm concerned there is not enough content packed into the display area. Looks like there is still some open space.
tltDn5sh.jpg
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Actually I was kinda actually wishing the eHSI had dual RMI/DMEs at least.

Lots of these eHSIs are like pumpkin spice level basic.
 
NordicDave said:
I'm concerned there is not enough content packed into the display area. Looks like there is still some open space.
Click to expand...

You can configure the screen for different views. All PFD, ALL Map, or all Engine and various mixes of each for 50/50, 40/60 or the view I have shown, 40/40/20. I typically fly with 50/50 PFD/Map but take off and land with the view shown. With dual screens, you can also swap the views with the push of a button.
 
minimum:

Any decent audio panel
GTN650
Garmin G5 HSI (for the cost of the CDI you're better off buying the G5 HSI)
Any ADS-B out transponder. I've got a GTX-345 and really like all the ADS-B in on the GTN.

At any point later down the road a guy can install another G55 and dump the vacuum system and/or install autopilot.
 
Well the good thing is that it flies great! I always love that remark.
 
My 50 year old, $40k, plane is in the shop for a minor upgrade. I'm replacing the KX and MX 170's with a KX155 w/glideslope and a ICOM 220. The KA134 is out and a PMA6000 is in. The intercom, marker beacon and one of the indicators also goes. I'll put a Trutrax in the empty hole next time through. I have a GX55 GPS and the space I create will allow me to mount a tablet in the stack.
 
G5 + used 430W or 530W is a major avionics upgrade that doesn't really cost much. The benefit is also that you can add the GFC500 or something simple like an S-TEC 30 that works off the G5.
 
James331 said:
I also am not sure about the G5/Aspen, it looks cool, it will remove your vac system, but as for being worth over 10k, especially with how primitive their eHSI display is, I'm just not sure.
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Agree. I'd spend the money on a GTN650 / 750 before a G5. It looks cool, but the HSI function is indeed very primitive. It is nice though to not have a vac system to worry about. Some of our club planes have them.. they're cool but as an owner I'd never spend the money on a G5 while keeping the old 430/530. That's just me though

denverpilot said:
I don’t think the GTN is outrageous IF, and it’s a big IF... IF you’re going to use it for real IFR in IMC.
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100% agree on this. For VFR stuff a 430/530 is fine, but for real IMC for any length of time the GTN is a real dream.. and if you have flightstream with it having it sync to your ipad is awesome. Personally, I prefer the buttonology and logic to the 650/750 over the G1000
 
Tantalum said:
Agree. I'd spend the money on a GTN650 / 750 before a G5. It looks cool, but the HSI function is indeed very primitive. It is nice though to not have a vac system to worry about. Some of our club planes have them.. they're cool but as an owner I'd never spend the money on a G5 while keeping the old 430/530. That's just me though


100% agree on this. For VFR stuff a 430/530 is fine, but for real IMC for any length of time the GTN is a real dream.. and if you have flightstream with it having it sync to your ipad is awesome. Personally, I prefer the buttonology and logic to the 650/750 over the G1000
Click to expand...

Just what you're used to, knowing the buttonolgy I prefer the GNS over the GTN touch screens, I can do a few emergency things without even looking at the box, plus it's a little more stable in chop, and I'm using these things in pretty hard IFR lots of the time.
 
N1120A said:
G5 + used 430W or 530W is a major avionics upgrade that doesn't really cost much. The benefit is also that you can add the GFC500 or something simple like an S-TEC 30 that works off the G5.
Click to expand...

With labor it’ll still cost you more than a three year old used car with 200,000 miles still left in it. Only in the aviation spin zone does anyone think a GPS is worth thousands of dollars anymore. Just sayin.

James331 said:
Just what you're used to, knowing the buttonolgy I prefer the GNS over the GTN touch screens, I can do a few emergency things without even looking at the box, plus it's a little more stable in chop, and I'm using these things in pretty hard IFR lots of the time.
Click to expand...

You know they made the UI dual function in the GTN right? You don’t have to touch the screen if you don’t want to. Freaks people out when you start cranking on the knobs like the organ grinder GNS UI though. :)
 
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