Approach procedure that crosses the U.S. border

Yeti Niner Five

Yeti Niner Five

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Yeti Niner Five
Apologies for not posting the plate. But please take a look at the RNAV 19 at KFSO (non-towered) in northern Vermont. The procedure actually takes you across the Canada/US border.

Are there issues with that? Would I need to do anything than other than be in contact with ATC? I'm assuming that if they clear me for this procedure that things are worked out between the agencies. But I've learned that assumptions are particularly dangerous when it comes to aviation (and my wife).

I'm a fairly new instrument pilot and this topic didn't come up in training. Thoughts? Where would I find the answer?
 
The Canadian atc and the American atc work together along the border, you can fly the approach without a problem.
 
Yeti Niner Five said:
Apologies for not posting the plate. But please take a look at the RNAV 19 at KFSO (non-towered) in northern Vermont. The procedure actually takes you across the Canada/US border.

Are there issues with that? Would I need to do anything than other than be in contact with ATC? I'm assuming that if they clear me for this procedure that things are worked out between the agencies.
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I'd assume that as long as you're IFR, on a filed IFR plan, there should be no problem. I'm not sure whether that would work on a pop-up, but it probably would - I did a pop-up IFR once on the way back from Ohio, crossing over Lake Erie through Canadian airspace, just for that reason (conditions were VFR). The controller understood why I was doing it and seemed to think it was reasonable, and more importantly I never heard from CBP about it.

The one case where you might be in trouble without a filed plan is if you were shooting the approach for practice, VFR. Both the ILS 33 and the RNAV 33 at DET take you over Windsor, ON and the times I flew those approaches in training, my CFII made sure I filed and opened a VFR flight plan to cover our butts. So depending on what arrangements exist between facilities and/or the CBP, there might be a little more to the answer than a simple yes or no.
 
As long as you are on an IFR flight plan and follow the clearance, it's no problem. I did an approach into El Paso and was vectored over Juarez. Did not talk to Mexican ATC. There is an LOA in place.

For Mexico, this is not possible under VFR (according to the controller) however.
 
You can overfly Canada from US to US and not have a problem, on a flight plan.
Detroit to Buffalo, no problem.
Seattle to Ketchican AK, no problem.
On a flight plan.

It's a Customs and Border Patrol thing.
 
BillTIZ said:
You can overfly Canada from US to US and not have a problem, on a flight plan.
Detroit to Buffalo, no problem.
Seattle to Ketchican AK, no problem.
On a flight plan.

It's a Customs and Border Patrol thing.
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...and the CBP think only kicks in if you land in Canada before coming back. Which is why it's a good idea to be carrying your passport if you're making that Detroit-Buffalo run or one like it -- you never know what might happen.
 
dans2992 said:
As long as you are on an IFR flight plan and follow the clearance, it's no problem. I did an approach into El Paso and was vectored over Juarez. Did not talk to Mexican ATC. There is an LOA in place.

For Mexico, this is not possible under VFR (according to the controller) however.
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I visited SoCal TRACON a couple of weeks ago. I asked about Tijuana's ILS Rwy 10 that goes into U.S. airspace. I was told they have an intercom direct link with them. TJ has its own radar but it isn't piped into SoCal.
 
tlglenn said:
Heck, when I've departed IFR westbound from El Paso I would be vectored over Mexico. There's a letter of agreement.
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Unless you're in something BIG and/or fast that's not real common (I see the big iron do it).

dans2992 said:
I did an approach into El Paso and was vectored over Juarez. Did not talk to Mexican ATC. There is an LOA in place.

For Mexico, this is not possible under VFR (according to the controller) however.
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KELP (EL Paso) runway 4 will put you over Mexico on IFR arrival ... VFR they won't vector you over Mexico. We only get ONE IFR day a year, so your IFR arrival will not be IMC;)

When I first started flying in 2007 before CBP tightened up, there was the "wink wink" southern corridor when transitioning El Paso airspace which meant stay DIRECTLY over the river or slightly on the Mexico side and you don't need to talk to us. I fly very near the river which helps keep you out of the arrival/departure corridors.
 
Yeti Niner Five said:
Apologies for not posting the plate. But please take a look at the RNAV 19 at KFSO (non-towered) in northern Vermont. The procedure actually takes you across the Canada/US border.

Are there issues with that?
Click to expand...

No.

Would I need to do anything than other than be in contact with ATC?
Click to expand...

No.

I'm assuming that if they clear me for this procedure that things are worked out between the agencies. But I've learned that assumptions are particularly dangerous when it comes to aviation (and my wife).
Click to expand...

It was probably worked out by Montreal center delegating some airspace to Burlington approach.
 
danhagan said:
Unless you're in something BIG and/or fast that's not real common (I see the big iron do it).



KELP (EL Paso) runway 4 will put you over Mexico on IFR arrival ... VFR they won't vector you over Mexico. We only get ONE IFR day a year, so your IFR arrival will not be IMC;)
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When I requested the approach it was a clear day. First, the controller denied it. Then about a minute later he called me back and said, "oh, I see you are actually on an IFR clearance, we can do that for you then".

I had no reason to require that approach other than I thought it would be interesting to fly over Juarez. :)
 
The Niagara Falls sightseeing tour route crosses the border. You don't need to be IFR or on flight following. Just self announce. The first time I did the tour I contacted Niagara Falls approach. They said thanks but I didn't need to contact them.
 
snowbird said:
The Niagara Falls sightseeing tour route crosses the border. You don't need to be IFR or on flight following. Just self announce. The first time I did the tour I contacted Niagara Falls approach. They said thanks but I didn't need to contact them.
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I believe rules for the Canadian border are different than the Mexican border. In fact, I believe the northern border is not actually an ADIZ.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
dans2992 said:
I believe rules for the Canadian border are different than the Mexican border. In fact, I believe the northern border is not actually an ADIZ.
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Your last statement is correct, but the rules as I understand them still require squawking and talking when crossing that border too, and the threatened penalty for failing to do that is at least a stern talking-to by CBP.

At least, that's what was drilled into me when I was flying in the Detroit area. Things may be different around Niagara Falls.
 
Ron Levy said:
...and the CBP think only kicks in if you land in Canada before coming back. Which is why it's a good idea to be carrying your passport if you're making that Detroit-Buffalo run or one like it -- you never know what might happen.
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If you have had a DUI, felony, or any gun law or violent crime violation (in the US) and land in Canada without prior permission (paying a $200 fee to ask permission) you might be looking at 5-7 years in a Canadian Prison for just landing. :yes:

Even some US misdemeanors can land you in a Canadian jail for years. :eek:

http://www.wikihow.com/Travel-to-Canada-with-a-Felony-Charge
 
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Ron Levy said:
...and the CBP think only kicks in if you land in Canada before coming back. Which is why it's a good idea to be carrying your passport if you're making that Detroit-Buffalo run or one like it -- you never know what might happen.
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Agreed.
 
azure said:
Your last statement is correct, but the rules as I understand them still require squawking and talking when crossing that border too, and the threatened penalty for failing to do that is at least a stern talking-to by CBP.

At least, that's what was drilled into me when I was flying in the Detroit area. Things may be different around Niagara Falls.
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I was with flight following coming up from the SW towards The Falls. I advised approach that I wanted to do the falls tour per the AF/D and they cleared me off freq, said to keep the squawk and call them coming out of the falls.

It's published, follow the procedure, no problem.
 
kkoran said:
The ILS RWY 16 View attachment 38359 at Bellingham, WA, starts in Canada. The IAF is essentially on the border and approach control service is provided by Nav Canada.
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Does that mean you can expect an invoice from Nav Canada six months after shooting a half dozen practice approaches there?

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
Does that mean you can expect an invoice from Nav Canada six months after shooting a half dozen practice approaches there?

dtuuri
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I'd be surprised if you got an invoice from them. I've been handed off to Toronto Center a number of times now and never have. Of course, policies might vary widely depending on where you are, as the difference between Detroit/Windsor and Niagara Falls suggests.
 
dans2992 said:
When I requested the approach it was a clear day. First, the controller denied it. Then about a minute later he called me back and said, "oh, I see you are actually on an IFR clearance, we can do that for you then".

I had no reason to require that approach other than I thought it would be interesting to fly over Juarez. :)
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Well, until you get a rough engine;)

El Paso won't even let you have practice instrument approaches to RWY 4 ... only IFR flight plans get to go that route (like you did). VFR you can land RWY 4 but they expect you to stay in U.S. airspace at all times.
 
dtuuri said:
Does that mean you can expect an invoice from Nav Canada six months after shooting a half dozen practice approaches there?

dtuuri
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You only get an invoice for ATC service from NavCanada if you land in Canada. Airspace transition is free...


Paul
 
azure said:
the rules as I understand them still require squawking and talking when crossing that border
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Not true. Flight following or an IFR flight plan are never a bad idea. But the minimum requirement is a discrete transponder code, which even FSS can get you if you can't reach ATC, and an opened flight plan. No "talking" requirement.

If you're flying, say, from Brandon Manitoba to the border airport at Peace Garden, ND, and staying low to maintain VFR, ATC can't hear you. Get a squawk on the ground in Brandon, open your flight plan, do the eAPIS thing and call US customs an hour in advance, and fly on in. No talking.

Paul
 
PaulMillner said:
Not true. Flight following or an IFR flight plan are never a bad idea. But the minimum requirement is a discrete transponder code, which even FSS can get you if you can't reach ATC, and an opened flight plan. No "talking" requirement.
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OK - strictly speaking, VOICE communication is not required by the notam. But you do need to be on an active VFR or IFR flight plan, with a discrete transponder code. In most cases, that's going to require talking to ATC in the air to get it. For example, departing VLL in Detroit for a Canadian overflight, unless you're IFR you're not going to be able to get that squawk code on the ground, and if you're IFR you'd better be talking to ATC. There might be exceptions, and of course when departing Canada things might be different. I've never landed in Canada and have no plans to do that, given the fees and all the CBP red tape involved when coming back.

Anyway my point was that the Canadian border rules in general aren't so lax that you can just self announce, as one poster said they had done at Niagara. You need to follow the required procedure, and if you don't have everything in place, don't so much as let a wing cross into Canada's airspace.
 
danhagan said:
Unless you're in something BIG and/or fast that's not real common (I see the big iron do it).
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I'm not sure a Baron counts as big and fast, but I just departed ELP westbound last weekend and I was vectored south over Juarez. Sent me probably 10 or more miles into Mexico before turning me north.

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If you land at Piney Pinecreek, MN, are you allowed to roll out into canada or do you have to land short to remain in the US ?
 
Palmpilot said:
That's an interesting airport!

http://skyvector.com/airport/48Y/Piney-Pinecreek-Border-Airport

The A/FD entry says "North parking ramp is in Canada, South parking ramp is in U.S." and it has both U.S. and Canadian customs offices. The airport is jointly owned by the Minnesota DOT and the local government district of Piney, Manitoba.
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International Peace Garden (S28) in Dunseith,ND has the same setup. Very popular with people who go fishing or hunting in Manitoba or western Ontario. The anglers like those airports because the customs guys are not as nitpicky with the prior notification times. There are couple more airports that straddle the border with the same setup, one in Montana.

At Baudette/Rainy River there are seaplane docks on either side of the bridge for those with straight-floats.
 
Palmpilot said:
That's an interesting airport!

http://skyvector.com/airport/48Y/Piney-Pinecreek-Border-Airport

The A/FD entry says "North parking ramp is in Canada, South parking ramp is in U.S." and it has both U.S. and Canadian customs offices. The airport is jointly owned by the Minnesota DOT and the local government district of Piney, Manitoba.
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Since you'll end up with wheels on the ground in the other country for at least a minute or two arriving and departing (or even just taxiing if you're Canadian), how does border entry and customs work if you never intend to stay across the border?
 
I did my IR rating in EP, they would NEVER let me fly the rwy 4 localizer approach. About a week after getting my rating there was a 600ft overcast day with winds from the north, I went up IFR and got to fly the approach finally. If I remember right, that approach took me roughly 6 miles into Mexico. I was more excited about flying over Mexico than I was about my first time in IMC.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
I did my IR rating in EP, they would NEVER let me fly the rwy 4 localizer approach. About a week after getting my rating there was a 600ft overcast day with winds from the north, I went up IFR and got to fly the approach finally. If I remember right, that approach took me roughly 6 miles into Mexico. I was more excited about flying over Mexico than I was about my first time in IMC.
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Any idea why they have no problem sending departures well into Mexico, but are apparently so reluctant to bring arrivals in from the same area?
 
Fearless Tower said:
Any idea why they have no problem sending departures well into Mexico, but are apparently so reluctant to bring arrivals in from the same area?
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I think it is an IFR/VFR thing, when you departed there you were probably IFR. A practice approach guy is more times than not VFR, that would explain why they never let me over there. Most people are VFR in or around El Paso because of the high MEA's and severe clear weather most days.
 
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