Approach briefing question

[Sluggo63]

If you haven't started the timer at the FAF, absent a GPS or the like, how do you know when to start the turn for the missed? You can certainly start the climb any time you want, but without the timer running, you'd have no idea when you reached the MAP, and turning either before or after the MAP can be fatal.

I'm glad I read the full thread before posting... This is exactly what I was going to ask. I never thought timing was to execute a localizer approach, it was to identify the MAP. I owuld climb to my MA altitude flying along the localizer until I hit the MAP, then do the lateral portion of the MA procedure.

 

[nosehair]

The TERPS takes all that into account, and the protected areas for timed approaches are accordingly larger than those with precise MAP location methods. But that's no excuse for choosing not to time, because if you don't time on an ILS/LOC approach with no MM, no DME (either no receiver in your plane or no transmitter on the ground), and no GPS, you are really jammed if you lose the GS.

Read my comment again, and focus on the part where I say you can identify yourself directly over the runway precisely at the MAP where you would start a climb, by becoming proficient at recognizing the Localizer needle sensitivity.
When you cross over the transmitter at the far end of the runway, the needle does a dance just like a VOR crossing.
Just another tool in the box.

 

[poadeleted20]

Read my comment again, and focus on the part where I say you can identify yourself directly over the runway precisely at the MAP where you would start a climb, by becoming proficient at recognizing the Localizer needle sensitivity.
When you cross over the transmitter at the far end of the runway, the needle does a dance just like a VOR crossing.
Just another tool in the box.

Except the LOC antenna is normally at the far end of the runway, perhaps as much as two miles past the MAP at the approach end. And I really doubt if anyone can tell with any accuracy at all how far they are from the LOC antenna based on needle response no matter how much practice they have at it. So, I'll stick with timing it rather than waiting for the needle to go bonkers, and I'll continue to teach my IR trainees to do it that way.

 

[nosehair]

OK, man. Didn't mean to come off as trying to tell you or anyone how to do anything.
I am coming in with some of the y valuable life experience. You can choose to use or ignore.

 

[sferguson524]

This has been a very informative thread, and I was definitely hoping Ron L. would jump in.

 

[taters]

I was never comfortable with the potential of loss function on an approach. To mitigate that risk, I built in redundancy for the ILS by tracking a dual ILS setup in my plane. If the GS dropped on both, I had confirmation and felt comfortable proceeding as the non precision.

Now if there were other conditions specific for the localizer only approach (like a dual VOR requirement), I certainly would not continue and would do the miss to prepare for the nuances of the localizer only approach.

most "dual glideslopes " are really one reciever with a repeater signal to #2...at least on most of the GA singles Ive flown...the big stuff has always had 2 radios, recievers, dmes...etc etc..

 

[BillTIZ]

Good point, i must have missed that on the plate.. been a coupla years.

It is on the plate the OP posted, but it's not on all LOC approaches.

 

[dans2992]

The TERPS takes all that into account, and the protected areas for timed approaches are accordingly larger than those with precise MAP location methods. But that's no excuse for choosing not to time, because if you don't time on an ILS/LOC approach with no MM, no DME (either no receiver in your plane or no transmitter on the ground), and no GPS, you are really jammed if you lose the GS.

Who flies anymore with no DME or GPS? If your plane doesn't have a panel-mount GPS, you'd surely have an iPad.

 

[Marauder]

most "dual glideslopes " are really one reciever with a repeater signal to #2...at least on most of the GA singles Ive flown...the big stuff has always had 2 radios, recievers, dmes...etc etc..

I agree, that is what is typically found. In my plane, prior to the GPS upgrade, I had two independent radios installed, with their own glideslope receiver and mechanical indicators. They did share an antenna.

With the GPS installed, I have the same redundancy but with glass instead of mechanical indicators and both glass units are HSI capable units.

 

[jordane93]

Who flies anymore with no DME or GPS?

I do.

 

[poadeleted20]

most "dual glideslopes " are really one reciever with a repeater signal to #2...at least on most of the GA singles Ive flown...the big stuff has always had 2 radios, recievers, dmes...etc etc..

My experience is otherwise, especially the newer planes (say, mid-90's and later). The ones with two GS displays really do have two entirely independent GS receivers connected to two independent CDI/HSI display units.

 

[poadeleted20]

Who flies anymore with no DME or GPS? If your plane doesn't have a panel-mount GPS, you'd surely have an iPad.

You might be surprised, but there are still plenty of them out there. Fewer and fewer each year, but they do still exist.

 

[Ventucky Red]

Don't forget the timing. If it becomes non precision, you may want to continue on with the localizer approach and the appropriate MDA.

Some people use MARTHA.

MARTHA????

 

[RotorDude]

Who flies anymore with no DME or GPS? If your plane doesn't have a panel-mount GPS, you'd surely have an iPad.

I agree. In my case, I have a panel mounted certified GPS plus two yoke mounted tablets, for a total of 3 independent GPS navigators. I fail to understand anyone setting out IFR/IMC without at least one GPS navigator, and 2 are my personal minimums. Given that you can get a Nexus 7 with Garmin Pilot for the price of less than a tank of gas, there is no excuse any more not to know precisely where you are, at all times.

 

[Ventucky Red]

That comment brought back memories. Many moons ago, the DPE administering my instrument check ride told me that point blank "Boy, you done good hitting that timer, I'd flunk you if you didn't". I thought he was joking until my CFII told me that he wasn't.

Ummm I did that on my check ride.. it was the last approach, ILS into LGB... I had already done the VOR-A to FUL and the NDB to LGB. Crossing BECCA, I did the 5T's, hit the timer button or I thought I did... Everything was working the way it should and a minute or so later I look and the timer wasn't counting down for the MAP... I went missed right then...

When I went missed the DPE said I was doing really well on the approach, and wanted to know why I did it. I told him the timer was still set at the MAP time and I wasn't comfortable continuing the approach. Told me right then to take off the hood, and head back in for a landing... I thought I was toast... there was not a word between us... When we got to the club and the engine was shut down, he asked for my log book and said he'll be inside waiting for me.... and a second later he smiled and said congratulations..

I don't know what wore me out more, the last five minutes of the check ride or a 10K run... err sprint!

 

[jordane93]

I agree. In my case, I have a panel mounted certified GPS plus two yoke mounted tablets, for a total of 3 independent GPS navigators. I fail to understand anyone setting out IFR/IMC without at least one GPS navigator, and 2 are my personal minimums. Given that you can get a Nexus 7 with Garmin Pilot for the price of less than a tank of gas, there is no excuse any more not to know precisely where you are, at all times.

I fly a /U into IMC. No panel mount GPS. Just me and some round gauges.

 

[RotorDude]

I fly a /U into IMC. No panel mount GPS. Just me and some round gauges.

Any reason not to take along a tablet that tells you exactly where you are in case of a panel failure, for the price of a tank of gas?

 

[jsstevens]

Any reason not to take along a tablet that tells you exactly where you are in case of a panel failure, for the price of a tank of gas?

It's not legal to navigate with?

 

[RotorDude]

It's not legal to navigate with?

When your panel fails, it is.
(And otherwise perfectly legal for "situational awareness".)

 

[jsstevens]

When your panel fails, it is.

Well, not exactly. It's just that in an emergency you do what you have to do. And that's approved.

I fly with an iPad and WingX. But realizing it's limitations, including occasionally not figuring out where I am, is part of being a responsible pilot. I'd rather not do that in IMC (or VMC) unless all my legal means just went out.

John

 

[RotorDude]

Well, not exactly. It's just that in an emergency you do what you have to do. And that's approved.

I fly with an iPad and WingX. But realizing it's limitations, including occasionally not figuring out where I am, is part of being a responsible pilot. I'd rather not do that in IMC (or VMC) unless all my legal means just went out.

John

Using any means at your disposal in an emergency is legal, though it would have to stand up to future scrutiny. Using a backup GPS after losing your panel would definitely be acceptable.
Not sure what you'd "rather not do in IMC or VMC". Using GPS for situational awareness?

 

[poadeleted20]

When your panel fails, it is.

Yup -- see 14 CFR 91.3(b).

(And otherwise perfectly legal for "situational awareness".)

That too -- see AIM Table 1-1-6. I'm flying with someone doing a VOR approach, and the mistuned VOR is taking him off in the wrong direction. He looks down at his iPad and sees the little blue airplane going the wrong way. He double-checks the VOR, discovers his error, fixes it, and gets back on the approach. If it had been real, that iPad might have been the difference between life and death.

And yeah, we did talk about "tuned and identified" later, but everyone forgets something eventually, and the situational awareness from the iPad could save your life.

 

[jordane93]

Any reason not to take along a tablet that tells you exactly where you are in case of a panel failure, for the price of a tank of gas?

I have an Ipad but I mostly use it to take pictures! I guess there is no good reason not to have one. Even though I learned to fly instruments in a 172 with 2 430Ws, I like going back to the basics once in a while so I don't let my stick and rudder skills deteriorate.

 

[RotorDude]

I have an Ipad but I mostly use it to take pictures! I guess there is no good reason not to have one. Even though I learned to fly instruments in a 172 with 2 430Ws, I like going back to the basics once in a while so I don't let my stick and rudder skills deteriorate.

I think stick and rudder is best practiced in VMC. In IMC, I like to have as many fall backs as possible, esp. when the cost is low. Handheld radio and tablet GPS are two of the essentials for IMC, IMO.

 

[Ventucky Red]

I fly a /U into IMC. No panel mount GPS. Just me and some round gauges.

Same here, I still fly the needles, but I have used a Garmin Handheld for a long time to "check my work."

Just did an IPC for Wings Credit and at the insistence of the instructor I used my iPad and Foreflight for the briefing, filling the plan, and as chart while in the air... I will say, it does have its advantages...

 

[jordane93]

Handheld radio and tablet GPS are two of the essentials for IMC, IMO.

Essential. No. Very nice to have. Definitely. Just my.$02. I didn't necessarily mean stick and rudder like that. What I meant is flying as if my GPS's fail. 9 out of 10 times I fly in IMC with a GPS. But that one other time it's nice to take up a basic IFR plane and know that I can still navigate and shoot approaches with minimum equipment

 

[RotorDude]

Essential. No. Very nice to have. Definitely. Just my.$02. I didn't necessarily mean stick and rudder like that. What I meant is flying as if my GPS's fail. 9 out of 10 times I fly in IMC with a GPS. But that one other time it's nice to take up a basic IFR plane and know that I can still navigate and shoot approaches with minimum equipment

You can take a GPS tablet along and (like the handheld radio) keep it off, if you wish. When the panel fails, you'd be happy to have an alternative.
But personally, I prefer to practice equipment failure scenarios in VMC, with a safety pilot or instructor.
I think what will kill you in the long run is not lack of stick and rudder skills, but poor judgment or mistakes such as using a mis-dialed frequency (possibly related to fatigue, stress or other subtle incapacitation). Having the best possible situational awareness tools at your disposal helps counter some of those issues, IMO.

 

[Marauder]

Ummm I did that on my check ride.. it was the last approach, ILS into LGB... I had already done the VOR-A to FUL and the NDB to LGB. Crossing BECCA, I did the 5T's, hit the timer button or I thought I did... Everything was working the way it should and a minute or so later I look and the timer wasn't counting down for the MAP... I went missed right then...

When I went missed the DPE said I was doing really well on the approach, and wanted to know why I did it. I told him the timer was still set at the MAP time and I wasn't comfortable continuing the approach. Told me right then to take off the hood, and head back in for a landing... I thought I was toast... there was not a word between us... When we got to the club and the engine was shut down, he asked for my log book and said he'll be inside waiting for me.... and a second later he smiled and said congratulations..

I don't know what wore me out more, the last five minutes of the check ride or a 10K run... err sprint!

I hate when they do that! I think most DPEs are looking for good judgment as much as good mechanical skills. Understanding your environment and making decisions based on an awareness of a potential risk is IMHO as important as flying the needles perfectly.

 

[poadeleted20]

I think stick and rudder is best practiced in VMC. In IMC, I like to have as many fall backs as possible,...

You can still practice stick-and-rudder skills on instruments, too -- every time you roll into a turn, level off from a climb, etc. :wink2:

 

[RotorDude]

You can still practice stick-and-rudder skills on instruments, too -- every time you roll into a turn, level off from a climb, etc. :wink2:

True.