Any traffic, please advise - the last word?

Re: AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

Len Lanetti said:
My thought is that what if instead of prohibiting the use of the phrase the change to the AIM embraced the phrase or something similar and specified the appropriate responses. Wouldn't that provide another tool for all of us to use instead of limiting us?

Len
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Len, I think we have the culture gap again. You don't have a very busy CTAF there, do you?

On any halfway sunny day by us, you might turn on a CB radio to get some relative peace and quiet compared to the CTAF.
 
Re: AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

smigaldi said:
Grant as a soon to be Inst pilot, my $.02 on radio calls into VFR fields. Normally if the field is IFR it is not that big a deal to make radio calls other than just the normal ones, and ATC is usually pretty good telling you if they see anyone in the pattern prior to the freq change. But I have been in IMC and on a approach that will dump me out to VMC conditions.

...

Inside of 3 miles on final I am giving a 1 mile position report on the CTAF and keeping my head on a swivel looking for that lone NORDO guy about to turn in front of me.
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I think you put your finger on another origin of the "any traffic" phrase, Another meaning is "I'M IFR and just came up on CTAF a second to let you little guys know I'm on a 6 mile final 200 feet below pattern altitude and if you want me know you're there you better talk NOW because I'm going tune the radio back to ATC."

I think you handled it just the way you should: LISTEN and learn!!!!

That's my attitude. I give my position on the 45, turning downwind, base, final. If I hear a call like that my "advise" as "anyone in pattern" is you'll hear my position when I make the next call.
 
Re: AIM Preclude "Any Aircraft..." - New Issue?

mikea said:
Len, I think we have the culture gap again. You don't have a very busy CTAF there, do you?
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Of late, I do most of my flying in the early morning so I'm not sure how busy the home airport gets. That said, I've been in and around patterns with other aircraft, I've entered the pattern only to have to exit and try again, I've used 50 cal machine guns which were authorized at the time...oops, sorry wrong thread.

As someone else mentioned...if an aircraft is inbound on the instrument procedure and states that they are going to make a straight in approach aircraft in the pattern tend to respond with position reports based on their proximity to the potential conflict. It has been awhile since I read the AIM for grins and chuckles but I don't remember that particular procedure being specified.

All I'm saying is how hard would it have been to sanction that type of interaction instead of prohibiting the "Any aircraft..." call. In other words, some pilots find value in the "Any aircraft..." call, there must be a reason. If it doesn't work as it is being used instead of creating a prohibition couldn't someone come up with a standardized phrase and response that would provide that benefit.

Len
 
It's all pretty simple -- make your own position reports, respond to and listen up for the position reports of others, and watch for the planes with no (or mistuned) radios. That's it -- finis, end of story.
 
Of course, what if you're flying near an uncontrolled field, without the intention of landing at that particular field. Maybe you're monitoring that frequency, just to keep yourself out of everyone else's way.

The new student pilot chimes in with 'traffic in the area...'

Maybe he/she will get a response from someone...

If I was teaching, I'd want my students to use it. Not for the rest of their life, but on their solo flights, they've got enough going on. Help em out.
 
AirBaker said:
Of course, what if you're flying near an uncontrolled field, without the intention of landing at that particular field. Maybe you're monitoring that frequency, just to keep yourself out of everyone else's way.

The new student pilot chimes in with 'traffic in the area...'

Maybe he/she will get a response from someone...
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You mean a response like 'get outta the air until you can hire a CFI that knows what it says in the AIM and doesn't teach you useless, inane phrases'?

If I was teaching, I'd want my students to use it.
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hmmm
;):D;)

Not for the rest of their life, but on their solo flights, they've got enough going on. Help em out.
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When teaching, the student will remember what lessons you teach them from the beginning. Teaching them improperly will only mean that they have to be re-taught the right way later. That costs time and money. You would be doing your students a disservice by teaching them to use a phrase that the FAA says they should never use.

Having them announce 'student pilot' with the id would be enough to get other pilot’s attention. Then they would help them out. The yahoo guy who was not going to answer to a regular position report, will not answer to 'any traffic..' nor the 'student pilot' id, so best to teach vigilance.
 
Ron Levy said:
It's all pretty simple -- make your own position reports, respond to and listen up for the position reports of others, and watch for the planes with no (or mistuned) radios. That's it -- finis, end of story.
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Emphasis mine because what Ron said really is the what should be the end of this discussion.
 
AirBaker said:
Of course, what if you're flying near an uncontrolled field, without the intention of landing at that particular field. Maybe you're monitoring that frequency, just to keep yourself out of everyone else's way.

The new student pilot chimes in with 'traffic in the area...'

Maybe he/she will get a response from someone...

If I was teaching, I'd want my students to use it. Not for the rest of their life, but on their solo flights, they've got enough going on. Help em out.
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If they're in a communication emergency (brain freeze?) maybe, otherwise they're quite obviously not ready for unsupervised solo flight and should not be up there.
 
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Eh, what good is the AIM anyways... :)

I don't completely disagree with everyone, I just think it's not completely useless.
 
AirBaker said:
Of course, what if you're flying near an uncontrolled field, without the intention of landing at that particular field. Maybe you're monitoring that frequency, just to keep yourself out of everyone else's way.

The new student pilot chimes in with 'traffic in the area...'

Maybe he/she will get a response from someone...
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As I said above -- announce your position and intentions. If someone is there, they will respond in kind. If not, they wouldn't respond to "ATITAPA" anyway.

BTW, I'd really like to find a time machine to go back and strangle at birth the first instructor who taught someone to say this.
 
So - now that airspace has become much less crowded, do we still feel the general waste of air time to say ATITAPA is problematic?
 
SkyHog said:
So - now that airspace has become much less crowded, do we still feel the general waste of air time to say ATITAPA is problematic?
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Necroposting in the middle of the night again???

You must be bored!

20101115002739_181_necropost.png
 
SkyHog said:
So - now that airspace has become much less crowded, do we still feel the general waste of air time to say ATITAPA is problematic?
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Useless is useless regardless of the degree of radio conjestion and ATITAPA is useless, period.
 
SkyHog said:
So - now that airspace has become much less crowded, do we still feel the general waste of air time to say ATITAPA is problematic?
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First, false assumption, and second, no change in my feeling regardless of the assumption. Go back to bed, Nick.
 
timwinters said:
Useless is useless regardless of the degree of radio conjestion and ATITAPA is useless, period.
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Being GEICO I like to take the other side of the isle. ;) :D

Ask yourself one question... What does it hurt? You have no idea what the pilot's need to know is. :dunno:

I hear many, many, commercial jet pilots coming off an IFR flight plan going VFR into uncontrolled airports use the term..... a lot! In the past 72 hours I have heard it 5 times! There are about 3 controlled airports in NE. Small jets and twins flying into uncontrolled airports around here is common. They need to know quickly who is in the pattern to develope situational awareness to low level traffic. :dunno:

I've used it when on ATC and they cut me loose within 5 miles of my local uncontrolled airport. :eek: I need to know now where everyone is..... Now! :yes:

It is interesting to me that everyone gets all worked up over "ATITAPA" yet those same pilots will BS for 5 mins on how good the b-fast was, or how fast they are going. RV drivers are exempt of course. :rolleyes: :lol:

I've heard pilots yell at pilots using the phrase! Really? What good does that do? Every pilot should be able to communicate succinctly as they feel the need.
 
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Geico266 said:
Ask yourself one question... What does it hurt?
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The use of that frequency by everyone else, including those at other airports using the same CTAF. I know that some folks believe that if they beg hard enough, those not making the recommended calls will start making them, but I've seen no evidence supporting that belief. OTOH, I've been comm-jammed from making my own reports or hearing those of others by someone pleading for reports they would have heard if only they'd shut up and listened.
 
Ron Levy said:
The use of that frequency by everyone else, including those at other airports using the same CTAF. I know that some folks believe that if they beg hard enough, those not making the recommended calls will start making them, but I've seen no evidence supporting that belief. OTOH, I've been comm-jammed from making my own reports or hearing those of others by someone pleading for reports they would have heard if only they'd shut up and listened.
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+1. It actually doesn't both me if they use this useless phrase. I just don't answer them and continue to do my normal reports in the pattern.

I was inbound yesterday with one departing and another arriving. I did my 10 mile call with no ATITAPA. None of us even did the usual "OK I'll be looking for ya." The one guy left the pattern, I entered the right downwind (helo) and looked for the Cirrus on 6 mile final doing the LOC. I turned base for the parallel taxiway and reported seeing him and he reported seeing me. It all worked fine with minimal communication.
 
N5922S said:
The bare basics -- WWW

WHO are you
WHERE are you (see above)
WHAT are you going to do (very important but often overlooked):mad2:
:yes:
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I was taught to begin with WHO I'm calling before saying the other three. In this case, it would be "Podunk traffic."
 
Ron Levy said:
As I said above -- announce your position and intentions. If someone is there, they will respond in kind. If not, they wouldn't respond to "ATITAPA" anyway.

BTW, I'd really like to find a time machine to go back and strangle at birth the first instructor who taught someone to say this.
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Amen to that, Ron!!!

:yes:


Mike
 
Ron Levy said:
BTW, I'd really like to find a time machine to go back and strangle at birth the first instructor who taught someone to say this.
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His name was Hitler.

(I figured it was about time to Godwin this thread. :wink2:)
 
Any thread readers in the area please advise ! :D

Just kidding, I hate hearing ATITAPA also.
 
Why do you guys get so bent out of shape over this? I'm not 'pro' saying it and have even mentioned the AIM to FOs who have said it. But jeeze, it's just an extra half second at the end of a call. A call interrupting two guys talking about which bar they'll meet up at later most likely.

Just saying there's way worse stuff out there to get riled up over.
 
Ron Levy said:
Because I've personally seen that it interferes with safe operations around nontowered airports, and I've never seen it contribute to safety.
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Sounds like a story in there...
 
I'll tell you what would help to reduce radio frequency traffic...

Retune/redesign radios so I can't hear planes in the pattern at airports 200nm away. I was tooling up the Mississippi River today at 2500' just south of St Louis and was listening to traffic in the pattern at Gaston's and Carroll County, AR. Carroll County was over 200nm away.

Why?
 
timwinters said:
I'll tell you what would help to reduce radio frequency traffic...

Retune/redesign radios so I can't hear planes in the pattern at airports 200nm away. I was tooling up the Mississippi River today at 2500' just south of St Louis and was listening to traffic in the pattern at Gaston's and Carroll County, AR. Carroll County was over 200nm away.

Why?
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Amen.

122.8 in this part of the country... :hairraise: As I was entering the pattern at JZI, I was hearing people at airports over 100NM away. I picked up the iPad to quadruple check the frequency. I don't even bother making calls at my airport, KJYL, I'd have to stomp on someone else's transmission and there's not going to be anyone in the vicinity of my airport.
 
Ron Levy said:
Because I've personally seen that it interferes with safe operations around nontowered airports, and I've never seen it contribute to safety.
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122.8 here is CLOGGED UP (see post above)

I'll take ATITPPA over "Jim...z'at chew? yeahh.. Why aint you on tha ground today boy?" "Well, we's s'posed be over at Imoergene's house but thay cancelled at, so I figgered I'd go flyin' t'day" "arrright.. Tell Suzi' nem I said hey"

(That was an actual conversation I heard this weekend, with at least 15 distinct planes attempting to make calls at various airports in the area on 122.8)

I was depargin BNL and there was a Mooney nearby and he was having issues landing but we had to sort out why Billy's grandma cancelled Sunday lunch before we could sort it out.
 
timwinters said:
I'll tell you what would help to reduce radio frequency traffic...

Retune/redesign radios so I can't hear planes in the pattern at airports 200nm away. I was tooling up the Mississippi River today at 2500' just south of St Louis and was listening to traffic in the pattern at Gaston's and Carroll County, AR. Carroll County was over 200nm away.

Why?
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Just crank the squelch to full, same way we solve the problem on boats.
 
bartmc said:
122.8 here is CLOGGED UP (see post above)

I'll take ATITPPA over "Jim...z'at chew? yeahh.. Why aint you on tha ground today boy?" "Well, we's s'posed be over at Imoergene's house but thay cancelled at, so I figgered I'd go flyin' t'day" "arrright.. Tell Suzi' nem I said hey"

(That was an actual conversation I heard this weekend, with at least 15 distinct planes attempting to make calls at various airports in the area on 122.8)

I was depargin BNL and there was a Mooney nearby and he was having issues landing but we had to sort out why Billy's grandma cancelled Sunday lunch before we could sort it out.
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And that's my point. No sense getting your panties in a wad over an actual request for safety information when there's THAT going on all over. And by the way, sometimes even THAT isn't so bad. There's plenty of times you and 'Jim Bob' are the ONLY people on the freq.

Again, don't read me wrong...I'm not PRO atitppa. I don't do it and dont encourage others to. But common, life's too short.
 
bartmc said:
Amen.

122.8 in this part of the country... :hairraise: As I was entering the pattern at JZI, I was hearing people at airports over 100NM away. I picked up the iPad to quadruple check the frequency. I don't even bother making calls at my airport, KJYL, I'd have to stomp on someone else's transmission and there's not going to be anyone in the vicinity of my airport.
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I was taught that when you hear people at an airport that's farther away, you should go ahead and make your call. Because of the inverse square law, your transmission will be sufficiently weak at the more distant airport so that it will not prevent planes there from hearing each other, and their signals will be too weak to keep yours from being heard in your vicinity. (Since radios have automatic gain control, the strength of nearby signals causes the gain to be turned down sufficiently so that distant signals will not be a factor.)
 
timwinters said:
I'll tell you what would help to reduce radio frequency traffic...

Retune/redesign radios so I can't hear planes in the pattern at airports 200nm away. I was tooling up the Mississippi River today at 2500' just south of St Louis and was listening to traffic in the pattern at Gaston's and Carroll County, AR. Carroll County was over 200nm away.

Why?
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The reason you can hear planes 200 nm away is because of the automatic gain control in the receiver section of your radio. When a nearby plane transmits, the gain automatically gets turned down, and the far away plane won't be heard. When the nearby plane stops transmitting, then the gain gets automatically turned up again so that you hear the distant planes too.

This is one reason why it's important to say the name of the airport you're operating at both at the beginning and end of your transmission, so that people know whether your call is relevant to them or not.
 
bartmc said:
122.8 here is CLOGGED UP (see post above)

I'll take ATITPPA over "Jim...z'at chew? yeahh.. Why aint you on tha ground today boy?" "Well, we's s'posed be over at Imoergene's house but thay cancelled at, so I figgered I'd go flyin' t'day" "arrright.. Tell Suzi' nem I said hey"

(That was an actual conversation I heard this weekend, with at least 15 distinct planes attempting to make calls at various airports in the area on 122.8)

I was depargin BNL and there was a Mooney nearby and he was having issues landing but we had to sort out why Billy's grandma cancelled Sunday lunch before we could sort it out.
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On my long XC it was all I could do to get on the CTAF of the airport when I was 10 miles out because of useless chatter everywhere in the area.

Make your position reports, and then shut up please. Someone else might want to do the same.
 
I'm not sure if I'm one of these annoying people or not. When I approach a non towered airport, I will start listening to the CTAF 15-20 miles out. When I get to about 10 miles out, I'll give my first position report. Assuming there is no AWOS, or the like and the radio has been silent, I will make my call like this-

"Podunk traffic, yellow and green Mooney, 10 miles out to the south east at 2000, requesting traffic, Podunk traffic."

All I want to know is, what runway is in use, or which runway do the winds favor. Is this phrasing against the forum radio etiquette? Am I wasting precious radio seconds? It was how I was taught and it has served me well. The whole ATITAPA thing must be an east coast, or mid west thing. I think I've only heard it maybe once, or twice in all these years.
 
bartmc said:
122.8 here is CLOGGED UP (see post above)

I'll take ATITPPA over "Jim...z'at chew? yeahh.. Why aint you on tha ground today boy?" "Well, we's s'posed be over at Imoergene's house but thay cancelled at, so I figgered I'd go flyin' t'day" "arrright.. Tell Suzi' nem I said hey"
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You're talking about the choice of "Boogaloo or death?" How about "Neither"?
 
Get the weather 25 miles out to find landing runway. Change freq to CTAF if not already up. Listen for traffic. If still no other reports by 10 miles, make your call "Podunk traffic, Cessna 12345 10 miles west, landing, Podunk traffic." At some point before entering downwind, any other traffic will already have stated their position in the pattern making the ATITPPA call a waste of time and the responses from that inquiry unnecessary freq congestion.
 
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