"Any traffic in the area please advise..."

azure said:
Heh. Last time I flew into KJXN (Jackson, MI), the tower told me to make straight in 24, report over (yep) The Prison. :eek:
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I always enjoyed flying into Concord, NC (KJQF) from the south or east. Tower would have you report over the racetrack (Charlotte Motor Speedway) for a right base for Rwy 02. It was a good view.
 
Richard said:
At KSBP when arriving from the east twr tells pilots to advise the landfill (4 mile final). When arriving from the west twr says to advise the lake.

At KSMX I was once told to advise some ag field. Luckily I knew how to tell broccoli from brussel sprouts...and which field twr meant.

At KPOC, twr says to advise Levitt's furniture store (huge flat roof building). The thing is there are many huge flat roof buildings. And no monument signs to be seen. One time I told twr I have the "large flat roof building". They were not amused.

I'm sure there are others.
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Flying into Meigs, once (God rest its soul), (or maybe it was Schaumburg?) the tower told me to "advise when over the Eisenhower Expressway".

Now, although I worked for the Chicago Tribune at the time, I had ZERO idea where the Ike was from in the air. Heck, I could barely find it from the ground.

I had to confess that I had no idea where that was, but that I was 6.3 miles out, or whatever. He just chuckled and told me to report left downwind... :lol:
 
The discussion of non-standard reporting points reminds me of a column penned almost half a century ago in Flying magazine by one of my favorite aviation writers, Frank Kingston Smith, called "The Game" (Sept. 1963). (By way of disclaimer, this is offered as humor only -- such conduct in real life is very wrong -- and dangerous -- on many levels. So don't do it. But this was written in a simpler time.)

Smith wrote,
"The game is based on the human weakness of never admitting that one really doesn't understand what someone else is talking about and is designed to get even psychologically by giving a point, called a 'Blodget,' to a pilot or tower operator who successfully ploys the other. [...] For example: Pilot calls tower and reports five miles out. Tower responds, 'Roger, report the brewery.' If the pilot responds with his own 'roger' and without disclosing that he doesn't know where the brewery is, and fumbles his way into the pattern, then the tower gets a Blodget. If, however, the pilot calls in and the tower says, 'What is your position?' and the pilot answers that he is over the clover-leaf intersection, and the tower doesn't ask which clover-leaf intersection, then the pilot gets the Blodget."

​
:idea:
 
I witnessed an interesting variation on ATITAPA last week I hadn't heard before. I was sitting in the right seat of an airplane about to take off from an uncontrolled airport's only runway pair. The pilot (a nationally ranked aerobatic champ and well known airshow pilot) finished his pre-takeoff routine and announced his departure plans in the standard fashion then added "Any traffic in the area please be advised". I had to think about it for a few minutes before I came to the conclusion that this was as useless as ATITAPA but slightly less objectionable since it wasn't in effect soliciting a response from everyone in the vicinity.

I haven't voiced my concern about this to the pilot yet but I think I will start a discussion on the subject with him at some point. It will be interesting to experience his reaction to my critique as he's about ten times the pilot I am in many ways. Fortunately, unlike some other well know airshow pilots, he's a rather friendly person.
 
I imagine he did it as a bit of a joke, dontcha think
 
gismo said:
I witnessed an interesting variation on ATITAPA last week I hadn't heard before. I was sitting in the right seat of an airplane about to take off from an uncontrolled airport's only runway pair. The pilot (a nationally ranked aerobatic champ and well known airshow pilot) finished his pre-takeoff routine and announced his departure plans in the standard fashion then added "Any traffic in the area please be advised". I had to think about it for a few minutes before I came to the conclusion that this was as useless as ATITAPA but slightly less objectionable since it wasn't in effect soliciting a response from everyone in the vicinity.

I haven't voiced my concern about this to the pilot yet but I think I will start a discussion on the subject with him at some point. It will be interesting to experience his reaction to my critique as he's about ten times the pilot I am in many ways. Fortunately, unlike some other well know airshow pilots, he's a rather friendly person.
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Is it really that big of a deal to you to bring it up?
 
gismo said:
Not a "really big deal" but I do like to encourage all pilots to minimize frequency congestion.
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Is the extra 1.4 seconds it takes to say "ATITAPA" really clogging up that much airtime?

I can understand cutting down on all the "hey billy bob, yeh buddy, we're 4,500, over by the lake. Shooo boy, your Bo sure is lookin' good. YOu get that thing warshed?"

but.. 1.4 seconds added to a call out just doesn't seem to be that much congestion.

Sure, if you've got some idiot who doesn't use anything other than "Hey yall, tell me wheeressss you at!!" I can understand.

You'd think, a high time, nationally ranked aerobatic pilot would be decently savvy enough to be making pretty decent radio calls, but that's an assumption and we all know what those lead to.. I know a guy who pretty much says the same thing and he justifies it as one last chance to be heard.. I dunno, whatever works for him is fine by me. :dunno:

I'd probably just let it be, but that's me. I have a student who uses it. I've told him a.) the FAA says not to and b.) the internet radio Nazi's will hunt him down for using it. He still uses it. Fine by me.
 
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Hang in there Belly. This has got to be one of the funniest threads I have ever seen. For me it sounds goofy and not very professional. When I hear a pilot use it I just figure another low time private pilot. So what. At our home airport you could key the mic for 30 minutes and nobody would even notice it. I doubt there has been much bent aluminum due to that phrase being used. You and I both see enough dangerous things to not get to tore up over an extra second or two of air time, even if it does sound goofy. Hope you are having a good week.
 
ronnieh said:
Hang in there Belly. This has got to be one of the funniest threads I have ever seen. For me it sounds goofy and not very professional. When I hear a pilot use it I just figure another low time private pilot. So what. At our home airport you could key the mic for 30 minutes and nobody would even notice it. I doubt there has been much bent aluminum due to that phrase being used. You and I both see enough dangerous things to not get to tore up over an extra second or two of air time, even if it does sound goofy. Hope you are having a good week.
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LOL.. Yeh, I don't like the phrase, but I'm having a hard time deciding which makes me roll my eyes more, the phrase or those who come unglued when others use it. :)

You're right, it does sound very "low time." I cringe when I hear one of my crew members using it when going into an uncontrolled field and I will admit, I've been guilty of telling a guy who just keyed up and asked that all traffic please advise not to bet on a 3 legged horse. Guy was flying a King Air and didn't think it was funny.. :)

I'm having a great week, hope you're doing the same.
 
I guess the problem is, it'll hardly ever be an issue, until that one time when it is, and then it's a big issue. Some, it seems as if everybody wants to talk at the same time, and if the time of talking is longer than it reasonable needs to be, then trouble can occur.

A nice day in Texas, and 122.8 (and a number of other CTAF freqs) can be a real zoo, with calls audible from a 100-mile diameter circle. All you need is to have the airport identifier talked-over on a traffic call, and you don't know if that guy who's reporting three miles east (when you're 3.2 miles east), is east of Brownwood, Stephenville, Sweetwater or one of the other 15 or so airports within easy VHF range.

Judgment call, always, and never a reason to chew someone out on the radio (we are trying to save bandwidth, remember, and no one made me The Boss of You), but not completely trivial.
 
SCCutler said:
I guess the problem is, it'll hardly ever be an issue, until that one time when it is, and then it's a big issue. Some, it seems as if everybody wants to talk at the same time, and if the time of talking is longer than it reasonable needs to be, then trouble can occur.
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I agree..
 
Someone asks, "What do you all think of pilot's saying 'Any traffic in the area please advise'"?

BellyUpFish said:
I don't have a dog in the fight. The phrase doesn't set me on pins and needles like it appears to irk most internet aviation savants.

This is an honest question, not a flame.

If it is "ok" for a tower to ask for traffic to advise (I assume it's ok due to attempting to prevent a plane from landing without a clearance, etc.) what is the harm in a guy asking for the same when he arrives near an airport?

Seems most of the guys who abhor the phrase give it grief due to it being "grammatically incorrect." You want advice? Don't bet on a 3 legged horse!

I don't have a dog in the race. I don't use the phrase, but I don't mind when someone does.
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Some respond "It's useless," others "It's pointless," others "It's expressly forbidden in the AIM (chapter and verse)."

Others remind others that the AIM is not regulatory.

Others suggest the phrase is not professional.

Others say "It doesn't bother me..."

That is what I would consider a discussion on the merits of the phrase.

No Nazis involved.
 
SCCutler said:
I guess the problem is, it'll hardly ever be an issue, until that one time when it is, and then it's a big issue. Some, it seems as if everybody wants to talk at the same time, and if the time of talking is longer than it reasonable needs to be, then trouble can occur.

A nice day in Texas, and 122.8 (and a number of other CTAF freqs) can be a real zoo, with calls audible from a 100-mile diameter circle. All you need is to have the airport identifier talked-over on a traffic call, and you don't know if that guy who's reporting three miles east (when you're 3.2 miles east), is east of Brownwood, Stephenville, Sweetwater or one of the other 15 or so airports within easy VHF range.

Judgment call, always, and never a reason to chew someone out on the radio (we are trying to save bandwidth, remember, and no one made me The Boss of You), but not completely trivial.
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Using atitapa on a day when radio traffic is slow or non existant does not bother anyone, except the people that need to get a life. On busy days it is pretty easy to listen for a minute and discern who, what and when so one can make a position call. It ain't rocket science ya know. The real problem is the issuance of the same freq to multiple airports within an obvious overlap range... With all the available frequencies just sitting there not being used a simple solution is to segregate them.... SC brings up a perfect example... Flat Texas, signal travels for miles. The feds should issue podunk north airport 122.075, podunk south gets 122.025, 50 miles away bugtussle international gets 123.025, and so on..... I would say" what is the government thinking"...:dunno::dunno:. But, we all know that answer.:rolleyes2: :D:D:rolleyes:


Ben.
 
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N801BH said:
With all the available frequencies just sitting there not being used a simple solution is to segregate them.
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So true, OTOH, there are airports on separate frequencies that should be on the same one. Gaston's is a prime example. Depart "the slot" and you're in Mtn Home's (BPK) traffic pattern as you emerge out the top. Depart down the river and you're immediately in The Valley's (pvt) and Flippin's (FLP) airspace. Gaston's is on 122.8. All the rest are on 123.0. I always keep 123.0 in #2 but all these airports should be on the same freq since they all share the same airspace and are within a 4 mile radius of each other.
 
BellyUpFish said:
Is the extra 1.4 seconds it takes to say "ATITAPA" really clogging up that much airtime?

I can understand cutting down on all the "hey billy bob, yeh buddy, we're 4,500, over by the lake. Shooo boy, your Bo sure is lookin' good. YOu get that thing warshed?"

but.. 1.4 seconds added to a call out just doesn't seem to be that much congestion.
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Do you feel it adds anything remotely useful to anyone?
 
So, in conclusion, we are agreed that it's not a good idea, but we'll hold off on the lynch mob for another day.

Deal?
 
roncachamp said:
Do you feel it adds anything remotely useful to anyone?
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Actually, I do and I think it can. I don't use it, not because the FAA says not to, not because I think it's an aviation sin, but simply because I've never used it and have never found the need to use it. I've often wondered if most of the people who use it are using it due to the law of primacy. Their instructor used it, so they use it.

Someone earlier in this thread commented on how busy a fast moving jet can get and someone else replied with the "Oh, I've sat right seat in a Citation before" answer. Well, sure, sometimes you can be fat, dumb and happy, other times things can get quite busy. The PF is well, flying, the PNF is well, not flying. He's working radios, talking to center, doing all sorts of things. I've come into non-towered fields where I had all sorts of time to get acquainted with what was going on at the field and I've come into non-towered fields with little more than knowing what the weather was doing there, must less who's on third.

I've personally heard people say it and I replied and let them know what I was doing, where I was at. I see no point in being obtuse and ignoring their call, simply because it didn't fit into my own personal accepted lingo book, but I like to let people know what I'm doing and like to know what others are doing.

I'd much rather hear someone use "it" than make no radio calls at all..

My home airport is a medium size airport, non-towered and has a decent amount of traffic. I've never heard the local area get busy enough that someone using "it" would create an issue.

I can understand the reasons why some don't use it.
I can understand the reasons why some use it.

I don't particularly care one way or the other. I don't use it. If someone wants to use it, I'm not going to play radio police and speak to them about their transgressions. I witness much greater acts of "aerial shenanigans" on a near daily basis from pilots of each "walk of aviation" to be overly concerned with "TPTSNBU" and if I was going to start handing out citations or having lectures for the local pilot populace, I'd start with other topics.

I guess I just don't understand the Anti-TPTSNBU fervor that seems so rampant on the internet. :dunno:

TPTSNBU is "the phrase that shall not be uttered" btw. I'm sick of typing ATITAPA. :goofy:
 
SCCutler said:
So, in conclusion, we are agreed that it's not a good idea, but we'll hold off on the lynch mob for another day.

Deal?
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I think it'd be more fun to hide in the bushes and ping the lynch mob with pellet guns.. ;)
 
BellyUpFish said:
I've personally heard people say it and I replied and let them know what I was doing, where I was at.
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Wouldn't you have done the same thing if they had simply reported their position and intentions?
 
Belly, you are not going to make any converts. Like you I cringe when I hear it. I also cringe when I hear many other mis steps on the radio. In fact I wish every pilot was perfect........like I am:). If you don't bend metal or make another pilot deviate I am inclined to get over it. If I am asked I would comment, civialy, that it is not the most professional thing to do. In the grand scheme of things that pilots do that are wrong or perhaps dangerous, this is way down my list.
Belly, are you going to ba able to come to the Christmas party at the FBO?
 
BellyUpFish said:
I've personally heard people say it and I replied and let them know what I was doing, where I was at. I see no point in being obtuse and ignoring their call, simply because it didn't fit into my own personal accepted lingo book, but I like to let people know what I'm doing and like to know what others are doing.
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So if that person hadn't used it you would not have made the normal reports?
 
roncachamp said:
So if that person hadn't used it you would not have made the normal reports?
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Good point. And conversely, will all pilots make the normal reports because the phrase is used? I wouldn't count on it.
In fact, I wouldn't count on the radio alone to keep me safe, even in the pattern with an active tower. For VFR separation, the radio is always secondary, IMHO, even when fast and slow aircraft are sharing the pattern.
 
Palmpilot said:
Wouldn't you have done the same thing if they had simply reported their position and intentions?
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I would have.

ronnieh said:
Belly, you are not going to make any converts. Like you I cringe when I hear it. I also cringe when I hear many other mis steps on the radio. In fact I wish every pilot was perfect........like I am:). If you don't bend metal or make another pilot deviate I am inclined to get over it. If I am asked I would comment, civialy, that it is not the most professional thing to do. In the grand scheme of things that pilots do that are wrong or perhaps dangerous, this is way down my list.
Belly, are you going to ba able to come to the Christmas party at the FBO?
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I know, I'm peeing to the west and the winds are 270@24.. ;)

I thought about trying to go to the party, my wife is supplying the petitfores, so make sure everyone loves them. ;)

I am keeping the girls today and may keep them in, since it's soo cold outside and they're just getting over a cold.

roncachamp said:
So if that person hadn't used it you would not have made the normal reports?
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Answering "not have" questions has always been difficult for me. No? Yes?

I think the answer to your question is no. I would have made radio calls, regardless.
 
timwinters said:
Until the FAA changes their mantra from "see and be seen" to "talk and be heard", I'm not sure I can agree with you.
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I'm not sure who has said that radios are primary to "see and avoid", but it surely wasn't me.

I find it odd, that you'd rather have no radio calls at all as opposed to a less than correct one.

I wonder which one would result in more bent metal?
 
156 replys and counting. What is the record for this topic?
 
BellyUpFish said:
I'd much rather hear someone use "it" than make no radio calls at all..
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If that was the choice, sure. But I'm not sure those are the typical options. What if the choice were between self-anouncing one's postion and asking others for theirs?

Perhaps there is a more subtle point being made by the FAA in discouraging use of the phrase. I'm reminded of the long thread here (or on the red board) regarding the hapless Cirrus pilot's VFR into IMC fatal accident. At one point, he asks the controller for their opinion on what he should do. Perhaps the FAA sees a similar theme here and wants to make sure that the responsibility for see and avoid stays squarely with the PIC. ATITAPA potentially dilutes that responsibility.
 
roncachamp said:
So do you still feel ATITAPA adds anything remotely useful to anyone?
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Actually, I guess you're right. It adds nothing. A diligent pilot will reply to the call with a proper reply and the more I think about it, he said something to the extent of "Muscle Shoals traffic, WhipperSnapper 923874J is X to the Y, any traffic in the area please advise.." to which I replied with something like "Stearman 68W is 10 to the northwest, 2,000, manuvering.."

Sam D said:
If that was the choice, sure. But I'm not sure those are the typical options. What if the choice were between self-anouncing one's postion and asking others for theirs?
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I'd agree, that's not the choice, but that seemed to be the point Tim was making.

I'd pick self-announce every time.

Most people I hear using it are self announcing their positions and asking other for theirs and I think this is why so many people are comfortable using it.

Sam D said:
Perhaps there is a more subtle point being made by the FAA in discouraging use of the phrase. I'm reminded of the long thread here (or on the red board) regarding the hapless Cirrus pilot's VFR into IMC fatal accident. At one point, he asks the controller for their opinion on what he should do. Perhaps the FAA sees a similar theme here and wants to make sure that the responsibility for see and avoid stays squarely with the PIC. ATITAPA potentially dilutes that responsibility.
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I think you're right.

Like I've said, over and over. I'm not a fan of TPTSNBU, but I don't go into a tizzy over it, either.
 
BellyUpFish said:
I find it odd, that you'd rather have no radio calls at all as opposed to a less than correct one.
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Personally, I'm more "on point" when I hear nothing than when I hear a few radio calls and/or responses, especially if I'm coming into a field that typically has traffic. It always makes me wonder if my radios are operating properly or if I'm on the right frequency or if I have the correct radio selected or if I have the volume adjusted correctly, etc. Silence makes me scan much more...if I hear nothing then my head is on mega-swivel as I approach a field.

If I hear traffic reports, my head is still on swivel, but at least the hair isn't standing up on the back of my neck.

So, no, maybe it's not the case that I'd rather have no radio calls than to hear ATITAPA...but I sure do pay a lot closer attention when there is silence.

Which is funny, because I realize that NORDO traffic is equally possible in both cases.
 
timwinters said:
So, no, maybe it's not the case that I'd rather have no radio calls than to hear ATITAPA...but I sure do pay a lot closer attention when there is silence.
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I try to pay the same amount of attention regardless of the radio chatter.

I probably up the ante a bit more when I hear bad radio calls over no radio calls though. A guy on the radio who sounds like a moron probably is.

I was sitting on the ramp one day about to spin and noticed 2 aircraft taxi out within a couple minutes of each other. One headed to 29. One headed to 11.

The winds were favoring 29, but were something negligible like 4 knots. The guy going to 29 made all the appropriate radio calls. The guy going to 11 never said a word, so I followed the traffic to 11. I'd rather have the guy making no calls in front of me, rather than behind me.

The traffic on 29 announced he was taking the runway and would be departing. The guy on 11 taxied out into position almost simultaneously and started to add power. I couldn't believe my eyes.:yikes:

No one else said a word, so I keyed up.. "You guys have an aircraft departing off both ends of that runway.."

The 11 guy stopped his roll and exited on the intersecting 18/36. The guy on 29 made a call he was aborting the take-off run..

Obviously the nordo guy heard me, as he stopped, but never made a single radio call.

It takes all kinds.. I'll gladly take too much radio traffic as opposed to none.
 
BellyUpFish said:
Like I've said, over and over. I'm not a fan of TPTSNBU, but I don't go into a tizzy over it, either.
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I think the main reason threads on this subject get so long is that people enjoying debating, and the fact that it's a relatively minor issue makes the threads even longer, because the relatively minor impact of it means that there is less likely to be a clear cut answer.

By the way, what does TPTSNBU stand for?
 
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