"Any traffic in the area please advise..."

What's not important? The call to unicom of the pilot keeping his job? I assume you know a pilot can get fired just as easily for messing up the catering order as bending the airplane?

dmccormack said:
It's not that important then, is it?
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I think Bellyup is misunderstanding Nick...or perhaps I'm not understanding Nick.

He's not saying he quits making traffic calls when he hears ATITAPA, he is saying he does not acknowledge the person making the call. Like if someone said "ATITAPA" He wouldnt respond "Cessna 288 is right base runway 17" He would wait and then make a traffic call when he turns final.

I frequent a fairly busy uncontrolled airport, and I have to admit it really grinds my gears when you can barely get a word in edgewise on unicom and some moron says "ATITAPA" when the frequency is full of people making position reports. More than once I've seen 5 planes in the pattern/pattern entry. It can get pretty crazy, and its even worse when someone is tieing up frequency making calls the AIM says shouldnt be used.
 
wabower said:
What's not important? The call to unicom of the pilot keeping his job? I assume you know a pilot can get fired just as easily for messing up the catering order as bending the airplane?
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Wayne -- what prevents charter dude and FBO from coordinating on the FBO's freq? Or 123.450 for that matter?
 
BellyUpFish said:
I think we both understand him. He hears ATITAPA and refuses to answer it.

However, the rest of your post sheds a bit of light on the situation. If you're at an uncontrolled field with 5 guys beating up the pattern and some numb nuts is yelling ATITPA, that would be very, very gear grinding.

The most we see locally, 4 in the pattern is rare. We only have a handful of training aircraft.

I guess I'm looking at it more from the POV of one or two guys in the area and him disregarding him because he doesn't agree with the use of the phrase. That's ignorant IMO.

I don't like the phrase, but if I'm 1 of a handful of people in the area and someone asks, I'll tell them where I am.
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Lets put it this way - 99% of the time, the call goes something like this:

Podunk traffic, Cessna (yeah...that bothers me too) 123, 15 miles south, inbound. Any traffic in the area please advise."

Now tell me, why the hell would I respond to such a retarded call to begin with, when its clear (absolutely clear) that there's no conflict there, when I'm on downwind? Granted, if he says he's 15 south, and I'm 13 south, I'm going to respond....but guess what? I'd have responded even without the ATITAPA.

That's where it gets stupid - why should I bother responding to the call any differently if they add a redundant and stupid phrase to begin with? There's either a conflict, or there's not, but asking others to advise is certainly not going to elicit a better response.
 
I'm with Nick on this one -- If someone says ATITPPA at the airport I'm flying to I say my normal calls, starting 5 miles out in the Chief, 10 miles in faster birds.

If someone says ATITPPA at another airport, who cares?

:dunno:
 
Yes, I will occasionally do that. Sometimes they dont even say ATITAPA and I'll tell them where I am. There is a Glasair 3 based out of 5C1 and he always seems to be coming from the east at about the same time I am, and he'll be on top of me before you can snap your fingers, so I'll let him know I'm going to do a couple circles to the north to let him pass.

In fact when I was flying back from Nebraska I heard him talking to KC center
 
Without getting too involved, there's a reason the AIM specifically advises against it; however, like everything else, it has its time and place. If I were flying a biz jet and I just got dropped into some podunk field <10 miles out because ATC couldn't clear me for the approach due to seperation, I may want to ask if anyone's up. Now ending every transmission with ATIAPA just makes you sound like you're trying to dodge missles or something.
 
Nothing if they have one. Some don't, some won't. Many times it's a municipal facility, and the guy at the desk isn't necessarily the sharpest knife in the drawer when coordinating that stuff. And not that he should be, handling bizjets isn't a big part of the job in small-town America. How long does it take from start to finish and how much of that time results in the freq being tied up? I think those who rant about this issue may be guilty of embellishment for sake of a story.



dmccormack said:
Wayne -- what prevents charter dude and FBO from coordinating on the FBO's freq? Or 123.450 for that matter?
Click to expand...
 
dmccormack said:
Wayne -- what prevents charter dude and FBO from coordinating on the FBO's freq? Or 123.450 for that matter?
Click to expand...

It's pretty tough when the FBO has no freq.

123.45 is not used for FBO commo. Most of you guys blasting around on 123.45 shooting the breeze are doing so incorrectly.

122.75 is "the" freq for air to air.

Why you'd use an air to air freq to talk to a ground based entity is beyond me. You'd also have to call them up on CTAF and "advise" them to switch to said freq.
 
SkyHog said:
Lets put it this way - 99% of the time, the call goes something like this:

Podunk traffic, Cessna (yeah...that bothers me too) 123, 15 miles south, inbound. Any traffic in the area please advise."

Now tell me, why the hell would I respond to such a retarded call to begin with, when its clear (absolutely clear) that there's no conflict there, when I'm on downwind? Granted, if he says he's 15 south, and I'm 13 south, I'm going to respond....but guess what? I'd have responded even without the ATITAPA.

That's where it gets stupid - why should I bother responding to the call any differently if they add a redundant and stupid phrase to begin with? There's either a conflict, or there's not, but asking others to advise is certainly not going to elicit a better response.
Click to expand...

Won't disagree with you here, Nick.
 
GCA319 said:
Without getting too involved, there's a reason the AIM specifically advises against it; however, like everything else, it has its time and place. If I were flying a biz jet and I just got dropped into some podunk field <10 miles out because ATC couldn't clear me for the approach due to seperation, I may want to ask if anyone's up. Now ending every transmission with ATIAPA just makes you sound like you're trying to dodge missles or something.
Click to expand...

Normally I'd try to get all these posts into one reply, but I'm on my phone.

I normally just announce my intentions - "Mitsubishi 895MA, X to the Y, inbound 29.." and hope folks are making calls.

Again, I don't like ATIP and am trying to get a student to stop using it.

I just didn't understand the issue until your 5 planes example. :)
 
Jeanie said:
So what's the proper use of 123.45?
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Fingers is used for FCC Rules, Part 87.303(a) reserves 123.45 for flight test operations with the following restriction: Mobile station operations on these frequencies are limited to an area within 320 km (200 mi) of an associated flight test land station.

And for ICAO Interplane comms in oceanic areas..
 
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In my experience if someone does make the "any traffic" call when there is more than one plane in the pattern if they both respond they just end up stepping on each other anyway!

Truly enraging would be "any traffic please advise" without accompanying position report. I've heard this from supposedly "professional" bizjet pilots :(

Bonus points if you refer to your Citation as a "Twin Cessna" ;)
 
N801BH said:
So..... I am coming into a uncontrolled field in the middle of Kansas for some fuel in a Citation.... Center releases me to the local freq when I am 5 miles out and you are down there working the pattern NOT making radio calls thinking you are the only one in the area.... I am on the ground before you can turn your base leg.:yesnod::yesnod: I hope..... unless we meet when you turn base to final and are not looking for me.... If we all flew 60 mph planes the no atitapa concept might be ok...... Like it or not if I tune the local freq and not hear any action in 15 seconds or so I am announcing my request for others to pipe up along with my position report......:idea::).

Ben.
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It doesn't matter if you aren't tuned over until short final, it is still your responsibility to monitor Unicom and/or announce your position as far out as necessary for you to know what is going on. If you are following the rules and being courteous, you won't "be on the ground" before someone turns a base leg. If you are inbound, it is YOUR responsibility to listen and sequence yourself into the flow. If corporate pilots at my local airports can do it, you can, too.


JKG
 
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flav8r said:
On the other hand if it is a semi-active CTAF then there is no reason for the call and you should just listen and advise your intentions.
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Why would this advice not apply to a quiet CTAF frequency? Or a CTAF with simultaneously approaching aircraft? Who gets to say "any traffic please advise?" Or should everyone who comes on frequency say it, so that perhaps everyone else will repeat the same information for multiple inbound pilots, all because those pilots can't be bothered with announcing their position and then listening on the frequency, and watching for traffic with their own eyeballs well enough in advance?

I just can't see a situation in which the phrase "any traffic please advise" is either necessary or useful, nor anything but a waste of time on frequency.



JKG
 
BellyUpFish said:
This kind of arrogance floors me..

I sure hope you make that call before he flies through you..
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It isn't always arrogance.

First off, I HATE it when I hear that call on the Cub's handheld. I KNOW the other guy is relying more on his radio than his eyes. And trust me, I have LOTS of experience with that. I only fly an average of about 2-3 times a day 6 days a week unless we have bad weather, so I think I have a pretty good idea of what other pilots are doing. Also, I may hear him, but if I'm using my "normal" handheld antenna, I can't reach out to him more than about 5 miles out anyway.

Second, if you are the only one in the pattern, it's not arrogant to just make your normal position calls. If there are five of you, then it would be highly stupid to all jump on and advise said offender, so in reality, the call is worse than useless.

Ryan
 
Wadded panties don't help much either.

JGoodish said:
Why would this advice not apply to a quiet CTAF frequency? Or a CTAF with simultaneously approaching aircraft? Who gets to say "any traffic please advise?" Or should everyone who comes on frequency say it, so that perhaps everyone else will repeat the same information for multiple inbound pilots, all because those pilots can't be bothered with announcing their position and then listening on the frequency, and watching for traffic with their own eyeballs well enough in advance?

I just can't see a situation in which the phrase "any traffic please advise" is either necessary or useful, nor anything but a waste of time on frequency.



JKG
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I will admit to what worries me the most -

when I am inbound on an instrument approach to a rural, but not barren, field - say, inbound to my most common destination, T82 (Gillespie County, Texas).

I'm flying the approach because with something like a 950' ceiling, I had to fly above the clouds to be safe for the coupla-hundred mile trip. But underneath that cloud deck is enough airspace for a guy in a Champ or a Cub, a 150, whatever, to toodle around for some lookit-flying, he figures no one else is likely to be doing much (and he's probably right), maybe he's not talking, maybe even not listening.

I *hope* he's listening when I pop onto frequency and announce I'm inbound (saying direction, distance and altitude, since "GPS One Four Inbound passing UCETI" is not all that helpful to those for whom instrument flying is not a habit), but I worry a little as I first emerge from the ragged underbelly of the cloudy beast.

Still don't think ATITAPA's called-for, but if I am nervous emerging at 120 knots, guess I'd be a lot more so at 160 or thereabouts...
 
I had similar concerns until I got smart and foisted the Bonanza off on some unsuspecting doof. Then I got a real airplane with the wing in the correct configuration, and can now see all of those guys without any problem. Just gotta be smarter than what you're working with.

SCCutler said:
I will admit to what worries me the most -

when I am inbound on an instrument approach to a rural, but not barren, field - say, inbound to my most common destination, T82 (Gillespie County, Texas).

I'm flying the approach because with something like a 950' ceiling, I had to fly above the clouds to be safe for the coupla-hundred mile trip. But underneath that cloud deck is enough airspace for a guy in a Champ or a Cub, a 150, whatever, to toodle around for some lookit-flying, he figures no one else is likely to be doing much (and he's probably right), maybe he's not talking, maybe even not listening.

I *hope* he's listening when I pop onto frequency and announce I'm inbound (saying direction, distance and altitude, since "GPS One Four Inbound passing UCETI" is not all that helpful to those for whom instrument flying is not a habit), but I worry a little as I first emerge from the ragged underbelly of the cloudy beast.

Still don't think ATITAPA's called-for, but if I am nervous emerging at 120 knots, guess I'd be a lot more so at 160 or thereabouts...
Click to expand...
 
GCA319 said:
If I were flying a biz jet and I just got dropped into some podunk field <10 miles out because ATC couldn't clear me for the approach due to seperation, I may want to ask if anyone's up.
Click to expand...

Why is that better than just making a position and intentions report?
 
BellyUpFish said:
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not advocating the use of ATITAPA.

What I am saying is, some of you are blinded by your own arrogance.

To disregard a call simple because don't agree with the call is asinine..

It floors me, really.

"I won't talk to you because you didn't call me sir."
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A post Ryan made reminded me of several instances. A busy pattern composed of T&Gs and arriving/departing traffic at a non towered field. An arrival makes the ATITAPA and the CTAF became clogged with pilots (plus the guy on Unicom) all wanting to be nice and help the guy out. There were times when some guys got discombobulated due to a blocked CTAF. What gets me is the call would have been made unnecessary by simply monitoring the freq.

If the freq is quiet, fine.
 
wabower said:
Your testimony is that time-sensitive arrangements/confirmations for FBO services, catering and ground transportation can be made several hours in advance? Have you ever departed Addison or Teterboro during rush hour?
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Sure, and the destination FBO will be monitoring your progress on FlightAware. Welcome to the modern age. And it works very well, too!

Paul
 
spinfire said:
Truly enraging would be "any traffic please advise" without accompanying position report. I've heard this from supposedly "professional" bizjet pilots :(

;)
Click to expand...

What bugs me is some guy calling, "Podunk traffic, Kingair 123XY over OBSCURE intersection, inbound.". Heck, I'm instr rated and current, but if I'm VFR transient at Podunk, I don't know where all the local intersections are. I've tried to use that as a teachable moment, VERY politely explaining, "Kingair over OBSCURE, some of us are VFR pilots. Could you advise your distance and direction from the field? And what runway do you intend to land?"

Paul
 
wabower said:
I had similar concerns until I got smart and foisted the Bonanza off on some unsuspecting doof. Then I got a real airplane with the wing in the correct configuration, and can now see all of those guys without any problem. Just gotta be smarter than what you're working with.
Click to expand...

Dang.

No one ever told me this.
 
PaulMillner said:
What bugs me is some guy calling, "Podunk traffic, Kingair 123XY over OBSCURE intersection, inbound.". Heck, I'm instr rated and current, but if I'm VFR transient at Podunk, I don't know where all the local intersections are. I've tried to use that as a teachable moment, VERY politely explaining, "Kingair over OBSCURE, some of us are VFR pilots. Could you advise your distance and direction from the field? And what runway do you intend to land?"

Paul
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I'm "with you". haha

I believe it a failure of the instrument CFI not to emphasis position reports need to be relatable to all aircraft in that area.
 
PaulMillner said:
What bugs me is some guy calling, "Podunk traffic, Kingair 123XY over OBSCURE intersection, inbound.". Heck, I'm instr rated and current, but if I'm VFR transient at Podunk, I don't know where all the local intersections are. I've tried to use that as a teachable moment, VERY politely explaining, "Kingair over OBSCURE, some of us are VFR pilots. Could you advise your distance and direction from the field? And what runway do you intend to land?"

Paul
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Yeh, I agree. It also drives me nuts when guys get used to calling out local landmarks..

"We're over the fish ponds for 18..."
"We're over the railroad tracks for 32..."

Locally we have the river north of the field so guys will call "Over the river.." That's all they'll say. So, you've got a pretty good stretch to figure out where they are.
 
At KSBP when arriving from the east twr tells pilots to advise the landfill (4 mile final). When arriving from the west twr says to advise the lake.

At KSMX I was once told to advise some ag field. Luckily I knew how to tell broccoli from brussel sprouts...and which field twr meant.

At KPOC, twr says to advise Levitt's furniture store (huge flat roof building). The thing is there are many huge flat roof buildings. And no monument signs to be seen. One time I told twr I have the "large flat roof building". They were not amused.

I'm sure there are others.
 
Richard said:
At KSBP when arriving from the east twr tells pilots to advise the landfill (4 mile final). When arriving from the west twr says to advise the lake.

At KSMX I was once told to advise some ag field. Luckily I knew how to tell broccoli from brussel sprouts...and which field twr meant.

At KPOC, twr says to advise Levitt's furniture store (huge flat roof building). The thing is there are many huge flat roof buildings. And no monument signs to be seen. One time I told twr I have the "large flat roof building". They were not amused.

I'm sure there are others.
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Yeh, at KFTY you are told to let them know when you're either "over the depot" or "over the tanks."

Shoot, going into KDAL you are told to let them know you have the "mix-master" in sight. LOL..
 
I spend a lot of time, both online and in pilot meetings, reminding everyone that there are no regulations governing phraseology use by pilots...IOW, you can't say something "wrong" when there are no enforceable rules dictating what is "right."

Everything relating to phraseology in the AIM and in AC 90-42F consists of suggestions/recommendations. There is only one area in which the FAA more or less puts its foot down, and that is in AIM 4-1-9(g). They are pretty much saying "We're not going to tell you what to say, but we're going to tell you what NOT to say." That's good enough for me.

Bob Gardner
 
BellyUpFish said:
It's pretty tough when the FBO has no freq.
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The UNICOM frequency (which is probably doubling as the CTAF at the podunk field) IS the frequency.

If you really want to get wierd looks (at least on this continent), start all your calls with:

All stations and Podunk traffic...
 
BellyUpFish said:
Yeh, I agree. It also drives me nuts when guys get used to calling out local landmarks..

"We're over the fish ponds for 18..."
"We're over the railroad tracks for 32..."
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Heh. Last time I flew into KJXN (Jackson, MI), the tower told me to make straight in 24, report over (yep) The Prison. :eek:
 
BellyUpFish said:
Yeh, at KFTY you are told to let them know when you're either "over the depot" or "over the tanks."

Shoot, going into KDAL you are told to let them know you have the "mix-master" in sight. LOL..
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(Chuckle).

Even now, I'll hear 'em referencing "...where the stadium was...," from the old Stadium Visual which relied upon Texas Stadium as a visual reporting point.

wabower said:
See? Those pills are making you smarter already. :D
Click to expand...

Not a long journey...
 
azure said:
Heh. Last time I flew into KJXN (Jackson, MI), the tower told me to make straight in 24, report over (yep) The Prison. :eek:
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Reminds me of my first solo cross country. Cheyenne tower told me to "report the flame." I pointed out that I was a student pilot and had no idea what he was talking about. He said just keep coming and I'd see it. Sure enough the flight path took me over a refinery that had one of those "perpetual" flames burning waste gas off the top.
 
flyingron said:
Reminds me of my first solo cross country. Cheyenne tower told me to "report the flame." I pointed out that I was a student pilot and had no idea what he was talking about. He said just keep coming and I'd see it. Sure enough the flight path took me over a refinery that had one of those "perpetual" flames burning waste gas off the top.
Click to expand...

Sounds like perfect guidance for POA.. "Just keep posting til' you spot the flame!"

:rofl:
 
One thing that bothers me - calling your position in the pattern (last time this happened I was on final) and the girl at the FBO comes over the radio and starts asking you questions "how long will you be staying? do you need any fuel?" At a very podunk field this would be ok but there was another airplane in the pattern.

Another time I was the only aircraft in the pattern, on downwind at night and the fuel boy calls up to tell me that they were closing in 5 minutes and I'd better hurry up if I wanted any fuel.
 
I don't get my panties wadded up over ATITAPA but I realize it's just wasted airtime that conveys nothing other than that the pilot asking is clueless and perhaps should be given a wide berth. ;)

I did answer one once. Guy did the ATITAPA without his own position report. I keyed up and joked, "You tell us where you're at, we'll all tell you where WE are!" ;)
 
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