Any sailboaters?

Henning said:
It is at that. Relative to 4.5 kts, 10 kts gives you the speed to get inside in day and a half to two days warning for weather that you get. 4.5 leaves you in the middle of it.
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Yeah, but any 32' sailboat doing 10kts is planing or surfing, and is likely beating the crew to death to make that speed - not to mention you have to have plenty of railmeat to keep it mast-up. That Westsail 32, even at 4.5kts, can handle a lot of weather and will get you there.

Sir Robin Knox-Johnston's "Suhaili" had a very similar design (perhaps even pedigreed?). He managed to single-hand it around the world long before modern navigation equipment.
 
Henning said:
It is at that. Relative to 4.5 kts, 10 kts gives you the speed to get inside in day and a half to two days warning for weather that you get. 4.5 leaves you in the middle of it.
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You are dreaming 10kt. with a 40-50 foot sail boats.

In Puget Sound or the Islands you are never over an hour from safe harbor.
 
FlyingIsGood said:
Yeah, but any 32' sailboat doing 10kts is planing or surfing, and is likely beating the crew to death to make that speed - not to mention you have to have plenty of railmeat to keep it mast-up. That Westsail 32, even at 4.5kts, can handle a lot of weather and will get you there.

Sir Robin Knox-Johnston's "Suhaili" had a very similar design (perhaps even pedigreed?). He managed to single-hand it around the world long before modern navigation equipment.
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That's why sail boats are not optimal for the route he is traveling, that is my point.
 
Tom-D said:
You are dreaming 10kt. with a 40-50 foot sail boats.

In Puget Sound or the Islands you are never over an hour from safe harbor.
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You said sail boat, I told you a sail boat will not serve you well or safely. A 10kt, 40-50' high efficiency motor yacht can be done very easily and effectively.
 
Tom-D said:
There is no prefect sailboat. just people that have spent enough money to think they finally have one.
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Have you thought about any of the Crealock series from Pacific Seacraft? Solid build, takes care of the crew in a blow, and has a good turn of speed. The 37 has long been a boat I admire.

http://bluewaterboats.org/pacific-seacraft-crealock-37/

Now if we talk dream boats, this is mine:

4400745_20130627120134513_1_XLARGE.jpg
 
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Bill Jennings said:
Have you thought about any of the Crealock series from Pacific Seacraft? Solid build, takes care of the crew in a blow, and has a good turn of speed. The 37 has long been a boat I admire.

http://bluewaterboats.org/pacific-seacraft-crealock-37/

Now if we talk dream boats, this is mine:

4400745_20130627120134513_1_XLARGE.jpg
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I see a lot of the Crealock designs here in Puget Sound.
There is a beautiful Tayana here in Oak Harbor Marina but It's beyond my budget.
 
Bill Crealock does some excellent design work. That boat is twice the speed of the Westsail or better. PSC also does not overbuild boats to the point of turning them into junk.

You are however playing in an entirely different price range.
 
Henning said:
Bill Crealock does some excellent design work. That boat is twice the speed of the Westsail or better. PSC also does not overbuild boats to the point of turning them into junk.

You are however playing in an entirely different price range.
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Calculated hull speed of the Westsail 32 (27.5 LWL) = 7.03 knots
Calculated hull speed of the Crealock 37 (27.75 LWL) = 7.06 knots

No way is that Crealock going to double the speed under the same conditions unless it's surfing - or winds are under 10 knots (where a Westsail will just start to get moving).

Henning said:
You said sail boat, I told you a sail boat will not serve you well or safely. A 10kt, 40-50' high efficiency motor yacht can be done very easily and effectively.
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The range on a 40-50' motor yacht, the entry price, and the wallet killing fuel bill do not make it a good comparison to a <$50k, 32' sailboat. There are plenty of sailboats that handle upper NW weather every day. Recommending an outrageous alternative is like telling everyone they should buy a King Air instead of the 172 they're looking at because it handles the sky better.

He might as well buy a tanker, because they can deal with most weather, and get from A to B without running out of gas.
 
Regardless of the mission, the best sailboat out there is the one your friend owns (and maintains).
 
FlyingIsGood said:
Calculated hull speed of the Westsail 32 (27.5 LWL) = 7.03 knots
Calculated hull speed of the Crealock 37 (27.75 LWL) = 7.06 knots

No way is that Crealock going to double the speed under the same conditions unless it's surfing - or winds are under 10 knots (where a Westsail will just start to get moving).



The range on a 40-50' motor yacht, the entry price, and the wallet killing fuel bill do not make it a good comparison to a <$50k, 32' sailboat. There are plenty of sailboats that handle upper NW weather every day. Recommending an outrageous alternative is like telling everyone they should buy a King Air instead of the 172 they're looking at because it handles the sky better.

He might as well buy a tanker, because they can deal with most weather, and get from A to B without running out of gas.
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WestSails will never make wave trap hull speed unless you are reaching in a storm with the mast ready to break at any moment, that is if the sails haven't shredded yet. There's more to sailing seed than the wave trap. The West Sail 32 is a 4.5 kt boat when carrying a safe amount of sail.
 
FlyingIsGood said:
He might as well buy a tanker, because they can deal with most weather, and get from A to B without running out of gas.
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we forget Henning does not pay the fuel bill. or buy the boat.
 
Henning said:
WestSails will never make wave trap hull speed unless you are reaching in a storm with the mast ready to break at any moment, that is if the sails haven't shredded yet. There's more to sailing seed than the wave trap. The West Sail 32 is a 4.5 kt boat when carrying a safe amount of sail.
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Hahahaha.

When Saraband won the Pac Cup, it averaged 5.86kt in 15-20kt winds.
 
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I find that "what's a good sailboat" is much akin to "what's a good aircraft"

You'll find there is always an expert, that every one can disagree with.
 
Tom-D said:
we forget Henning does not pay the fuel bill. or buy the boat.
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Not always, but I have been an owner as well, including sailboats, started when I was 21. Here's some realities for you traveling on a sailboat. Half the time you will be motoring anyway either because the wind is non existent, variable and fluky where you can't keep the sails in trim, or coming from a direction you can't use.

A very common mistaken rationalization for a sailboat is that cost per mile is reduced because "wind is free". While it is true that the wind is free, the materials required to convert that wind into boat speed is far from free, in fact it's bloody expensive, and it all wears out, degrades, and needs replacing with alarming frequency.

At the end of 10 years and the same voyages, if you have an efficient, slender, displacement motor yacht, you will have spent the same money as the sail boat or less, and you would have spent 70% more time exploring the places you went, instead of slogging along getting there.

The other factor is the hazard the sailing rig itself poses. The standing rigging has tons of stored force waiting to explode just standing there. The compressive & countering tension forces on a properly tuned rig stores a lot of energy. When you add sail forces, when you work the numbers it's kinda scary. When your on deck and the mast comes down, it's really scary.

The part of the world you are looking to boat in is extremely unforgiving. Just because you have a boat that can handle what nature throws at you doesn't mean you can handle the ride.

It's kinda Déjà vu from my buddy' Coffey shop in TX. Stopped in when I came in from offshore, he introduces me to his buddy Steve, "Steve just took a job on a crabber in Alaska." "You ever worked on a boat before?" "No, but I go bass fishing a lot." "Have you ever been on the ocean?" "No". "Don't go, you'll die there, you aren't ready. Come with me to the Gulf week after next and I'll get you one crew boat, so you can learn about being on a boat in safer conditions." "Screw that,mthis is big money. I ride Bulls! I can handle this." "I just laughed and said "Ok". Next time I get back from a hitch and go in the shop Alan asks, "Remember Steve who was going to Alaska?" "Yeah, how's he doing?" "He's dead." "Quick" "Yeah, you did warn him." "Yep..." Oh well, people will make their own choices from their own version of reality.
 
Sailing has worked for millennia. People are crossing big water all over the world this very minute. No need to use extremist sensationalism to justify your recommendation.

If you add fuel costs to the equation, operating costs are exponentially higher for a motoryacht. Plus, you can repair sails as they degrade with a needle and thread.

I'm gonna remove myself from this pointless argument now. Let us know how Azzam is running next time you take her to the Med.
 
Henning said:
Not always, but I have been an owner as well, including sailboats, started when I was 21.
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I believe that if you have done every thing you say you have, you'd be 1000 years old. :)

I have sailed a lot over the past years in mine and others sailboats here in the sound. The Sailboats I have experience on burn less than a gallon of diesel fuel per hour. unlike your go fast motor boats, Believe me I've owned both.

I think it would be a great summer spent gunkholling South East AK. and never getting into blue water.

There is a Ingred 38 here that is with in my budget too, very nicely equipped and ready to go. $45.k
 
FlyingIsGood said:
Sailing has worked for millennia. People are crossing big water all over the world this very minute. No need to use extremist sensationalism to justify your recommendation.

If you add fuel costs to the equation, operating costs are exponentially higher for a motoryacht. Plus, you can repair sails as they degrade with a needle and thread.

I'm gonna remove myself from this pointless argument now. Let us know how Azzam is running next time you take her to the Med.
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People have been dying at sea the entire time as well. The commercial industry didn't give up sails for no reason, it adds crap loads of hazards and large amounts of cost. The body of water he is talking about claims more lives than the Southern Ocean, including experienced, seasoned, seamen.

Tom is an old man and has a nice wife in the same age bracket. There is nothing about being in the middle of the Gulf of Alaska that should enter into their life plans at this point.

The reality of what he wants a boat for, the sailing rig will will serve him more cost than benefit. Same as a plane is a compromise, so is a boat. If you have a motor yacht mission, you're much better served by a motor yacht.
 
It seems to me that a 30-35' powerboat - which strikes me as a good size to take to Catalina, sleep a few people while there for a couple nights, etc - is going to cost me a heck of a lot more than a similarly sized sailboat. I've looked at powerboats, and admittedly I have no idea what I'm looking for, but the numbers all seem to start in the $150K range and go up from there. Like the OP, I think I'd like to keep my budget in the $80K's.

For me this isn't really about going places, it's more of a social thing to do. Have friends over, take it out during the day, maybe to Catalina with another couple over the weekend - that sort of thing. I also have these thoughts of arriving at LAX after a trip, and instead of coming immediately home - heading to the boat in Marina Del Rey (or wherever) to unwind.

But it's all dreaming anyway - as you guys have said, it's probably a much, MUCH better decision to rent when needed. :)
 
kayoh190 said:
It seems to me that a 30-35' powerboat - which strikes me as a good size to take to Catalina, sleep a few people while there for a couple nights, etc - is going to cost me a heck of a lot more than a similarly sized sailboat. I've looked at powerboats, and admittedly I have no idea what I'm looking for, but the numbers all seem to start in the $150K range and go up from there. Like the OP, I think I'd like to keep my budget in the $80K's.

For me this isn't really about going places, it's more of a social thing to do. Have friends over, take it out during the day, maybe to Catalina with another couple over the weekend - that sort of thing. I also have these thoughts of arriving at LAX after a trip, and instead of coming immediately home - heading to the boat in Marina Del Rey (or wherever) to unwind.

But it's all dreaming anyway - as you guys have said, it's probably a much, MUCH better decision to rent when needed. :)
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It depends on the boat. The boats you are talking about have planing or semi planing hulls, they need a lot of horsepower to climb over their bow wave and keep the boat up. If you go to a wave piercing displacement hull, you now simply slice through the bow wave tossing it to the side.

There's not much to rent in Alaska.
 
kayoh190 said:
It seems to me that a 30-35' powerboat - which strikes me as a good size to take to Catalina, sleep a few people while there for a couple nights, etc - is going to cost me a heck of a lot more than a similarly sized sailboat. I've looked at powerboats, and admittedly I have no idea what I'm looking for, but the numbers all seem to start in the $150K range and go up from there. Like the OP, I think I'd like to keep my budget in the $80K's.

For me this isn't really about going places, it's more of a social thing to do. Have friends over, take it out during the day, maybe to Catalina with another couple over the weekend - that sort of thing. I also have these thoughts of arriving at LAX after a trip, and instead of coming immediately home - heading to the boat in Marina Del Rey (or wherever) to unwind.

But it's all dreaming anyway - as you guys have said, it's probably a much, MUCH better decision to rent when needed. :)
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My dream fleet: Something light and quick for the local lake (say a J/70), and an annual charter in some nice cruising ground.
 
When I had my Mason 31, I sailed from Oregon to Mexico to Hawaii and then ended my trip in Puget Sound where I had taken a job at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard. In the year I was gone, I burned less than 40 gallons of diesel in my single cylinder Volvo Penta diesel. I had a good selection of sails to serve me well in both heavy weather and in the more common light conditions. There were days I did not go anywhere, but that was OK, I wasn't on a schedule. I got stuck in several storms that I could not run away from, but I trolled stabilizing warps off the bow to keep my nose into the waves and I stayed below and drank hot tea until they passed. I bought the boat for almost nothing (it was a traditional wooden plank construction) and did have to put in some sweat equity to re-caulk the hull, but after that my costs were low. I sold the boat for what I had in it after 3 years of local cruising and my 1 year of blue water excitement. My costs would have been much higher, and I would have had more mechanical maintenance with a power boat. Most power boaters load themselves down with all the comforts of home (refrigeration, central heat, lots of electronics) and all of that breaks down in the harsh marine environment. I went simple and cheap and it worked for me. I could not have done my blue water trip in a power boat for anywhere near the low cost I incurred with a sailboat. That said, I have no desire to do it again. I now scratch my itch for sailing adventures by flying someplace where the weather is warm and the water has lots of visibility and I bare-boat charter something I can enjoy for less than moorage and insurance costs for a year of boat ownership.
 
Meh I'd go hatteras for glass, but seeing some of the nice steel hulled boats for sale I might get something more formidable if it were me.
 
Power vs sail. Each have their pluses and minuses and it's hard to convince each advocate that the other is better. For me, I'd rather find joy in harnessing the wind and going slowly but quietly to the next anchorage. I'm retired and long ago threw out the "schedule". Yes, I have to watch the weather carefully before I set out, stay put sometimes, have alternatives in case (when) the forecast is wrong, and keep up on maintenance, so little problems don't become big ones, but that's part of the fun for me.
 
Tom-D said:
You seem to be brain stuck in the gulf of Alaska.

South east Alaska is 99% inland water way or Fjord.

They run flat bottom ferries in these waters.
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:rofl::rofl::rofl: Correct! YOU were the one saying you want a sail boat because you will sail outside. You will not sail even 3% of the time on the inside, so why screw yourself over with a sailboat you are going to motor around in?:dunno:

A high efficiency motor yacht will work much better, and cost less to own.
 
Henning said:
:rofl::rofl::rofl: Correct! YOU were the one saying you want a sail boat because you will sail outside. You will not sail even 3% of the time on the inside, so why screw yourself over with a sailboat you are going to motor around in?:dunno:

A high efficiency motor yacht will work much better, and cost less to own.
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I said I'd not go deep blue water in less than 1000' boat..

Because you can motor around on less than a gallon per hour. show me one live aboard power boat that will do that.
 
Tom-D said:
I said I'd not go deep blue water in less than 1000' boat..

Because you can motor around on less than a gallon per hour. show me one live aboard power boat that will do that.
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You said you would go from SFdF to Seward, that's open water.

You can take the sailing rig and 3/4s of the ballast off any sailboat and pick up speed on the exact same fuel, you also lose a bunch of draft. Once you no longer need efficiency at great angles of heel, you can now modify the bow to optimize into a wave piercing design and pick up more speed for the same fuel. It's a matter of resistance.

The above design is a conversion off a Maxi racing sailboat, is 100' and will do 20+kts on 400hp.
 
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Henning said:
You said you would go from SFdF to Seward, that's open water.

You can take the sailing rig and 3/4s of the ballast off any sailboat and pick up speed on the exact same fuel, you also lose a bunch of draft.
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San Fran to Seward ?? Where did I say that..? At most I'd be Port Hardy to Rivers inlet in open water. and maybe north to Seward, but there are many harbors along the way.

And who is worried about draft, most of the water in the fjords are 200-300' deep 10' off the rocks. and the dockside are way over 25' at low tide.

Lots of sailers do this every summer. it isn't easy, but not impossible in a 30-40' boat.
 
Henning said:
Once you no longer need efficiency at great angles of heel, you can now modify the bow to optimize into a wave piercing design and pick up more speed for the same fuel. It's a matter of resistance.
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Dream on,, your not going to do that on my budget, besides I don't want a project.
 
Tom-D said:
San Fran to Seward ?? Where did I say that..? At most I'd be Port Hardy to Rivers inlet in open water. and maybe north to Seward, but there are many harbors along the way.

And who is worried about draft, most of the water in the fjords are 200-300' deep 10' off the rocks. and the dockside are way over 25' at low tide.

Lots of sailers do this every summer. it isn't easy, but not impossible in a 30-40' boat.
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Straights of Juan De Fuca, the most direct path for you to the ocean.
 
Tom-D said:
Dream on,, your not going to do that on my budget, besides I don't want a project.
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Depends on the budget and what you start with. After you sell off all the sailing rig, sails, and hardware along with a couple of tons of lead, you have a fair few thousand dollars to work with. "Desailing" a boat isn't much of a project at all. To optimize you want to add some horsepower or at least reprop.
 
Henning said:
Depends on the budget and what you start with. After you sell off all the sailing rig, sails, and hardware along with a couple of tons of lead, you have a fair few thousand dollars to work with. "Desailing" a boat isn't much of a project at all. To optimize you want to add some horsepower or at least reprop.
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Why buy a boat to hack it up and get something you may not like. If converting sailboats is such a great idea, should be no problem finding completed examples on yachtworld.com
Sailing hardware lasts a looonnng time with very minimal care, plus sailing adds stability and smooths out the ride not to mention the lead keel, without it you will tossed around like a plastic bottle.
No one in their right mind would convert a sailboat to a motorboat, that would be like buying a 172 and converting it to a low wing
If you are in a hurry or want more interior space, buy a motorboat, otherwise a sailboat is more efficient, more romantic:
http://youtu.be/fDdPzjAPbOE
 
teejayevans said:
Why buy a boat to hack it up and get something you may not like. If converting sailboats is such a great idea, should be no problem finding completed examples on yachtworld.com
Sailing hardware lasts a looonnng time with very minimal care, plus sailing adds stability and smooths out the ride not to mention the lead keel, without it you will tossed around like a plastic bottle.
No one in their right mind would convert a sailboat to a motorboat, that would be like buying a 172 and converting it to a low wing
If you are in a hurry or want more interior space, buy a motorboat, otherwise a sailboat is more efficient, more romantic:
http://youtu.be/fDdPzjAPbOE
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Because the hull forms on power boats are inefficient planing and semi planing designs to get the extra interior volume and stability in a short length. I either have to do a custom new build, or modify a sailboat which has the correct basic low drag displacement hull form, then I add the bow appendage to both increase the water line length and add bulb to get to bow wave to split and roll.

Now I have a bow wave piercing monohull that operates in displacement mode at speeds greater than 1.34*sqrt of the waterline length.

The reason is the same reason people build airplanes, what the need isn't avalable on the market. Luckily with boats, I don't have to build the whole thing, I can modify what is close.

Would I rather, and would it be better to new build? Sure, I haven't got that money though.

I've sailed over 100,000 miles in all weather and oceans including the Southern Ocean, the romance is over. Either the sails are making me money, or they are gone.
 
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