Any operational benefits from ADS-B out yet?
- Thread starter dans2992
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petrolero
Pattern Altitude
Yeah other aircraft can see me more easily if so equipped. Also I get the benefit of seeing others via the customized traffic report that they beam up to me. It has been very nice, especially when I'm in or near the practice areas or flying VFR corridors. I see them before they see me most of the time. And when they aren't talking on 122.75 it's been super nice.
It's been so nice that I wonder if it will result in the perverse incentive for pilots not to talk to ATC. I guess that is at least part of its purpose.
It's been so nice that I wonder if it will result in the perverse incentive for pilots not to talk to ATC. I guess that is at least part of its purpose.
dans2992
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Right, we are getting that, but I mean when dealing with ATC (ie better routing, radar services where radar coverage does not exit, etc)
Clark1961
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When I talked to the Denver Approach guys about ADS-B they didn't care because it wasn't in their system yet. That was a year ago, dunno if it's changed. The controllers do catch on real quick that you can spot traffic as well as anyone, that's fer sure...
NoHeat
En-Route
I've flown quite a few cross country flights since installing a transponder with ADS-B out. I've never heard ATC say anything they wouldn't have said if I just had Mode C. So I'm pretty sure I'm not helping them right now.
The big benefit for now of having "out" is stimulating the ADS-B ground transmitters to report traffic so that I can detect it using my ADS-B in.
However, I'm still not seeing all the transponder-equipped traffic that way -- I know this because I also have a Skywatch traffic advisory system, and quite often a target shows up in only Skywatch but not ADS-B in, or vice versa, and sometimes it doesn't show up in either.
The big benefit for now of having "out" is stimulating the ADS-B ground transmitters to report traffic so that I can detect it using my ADS-B in.
However, I'm still not seeing all the transponder-equipped traffic that way -- I know this because I also have a Skywatch traffic advisory system, and quite often a target shows up in only Skywatch but not ADS-B in, or vice versa, and sometimes it doesn't show up in either.
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
I guess the ATC handshake may be a tiny bit faster for VFR flight following since they already know your tail number and type... and yet you still have to say it all. So the difference is hypothetical.
Other than that I don't think I expected any particular operational ATC benefit.
The real benefit for of ADS-B out for me is traffic, and ADS-B Wx "in". The biggest operational benny for me in general is being /G and IFR and getting direct routing across multiple states and being ushered politely through Class B. Probably next up is filing ICAO and being able to use PBN procedures (which I haven't done yet because the ICAO process is ultra user-hostile).
Other than that I don't think I expected any particular operational ATC benefit.
The real benefit for of ADS-B out for me is traffic, and ADS-B Wx "in". The biggest operational benny for me in general is being /G and IFR and getting direct routing across multiple states and being ushered politely through Class B. Probably next up is filing ICAO and being able to use PBN procedures (which I haven't done yet because the ICAO process is ultra user-hostile).
rocketflyer84
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So far as I know / have seen when touring facilities there's really nothing yet in that regard.
In the future the one thing would be that the need to IDENT should go away (as if that was a massive issue
).
I'm sure someone will chime in shortly pointing out that since they can track you it will be real easy to automatically implement and bill for usage fees.
In the future the one thing would be that the need to IDENT should go away (as if that was a massive issue
).I'm sure someone will chime in shortly pointing out that since they can track you it will be real easy to automatically implement and bill for usage fees.
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
I'm sure someone will chime in shortly pointing out that since they can track you it will be real easy to automatically implement and bill for usage fees.
Yep. Waiting...
I'm sure someone will chime in shortly pointing out that since they can track you it will be real easy to automatically implement and bill for usage fees.
Hence a benefit in going with a UAT.
Yep. Waiting...
Cruiser
Pre-takeoff checklist
I watched the opposing traffic approaching 1000' above me for quite some time before ATC called out the traffic for me. Aside from the lack of surprise since I knew he was there and the fact that I was in IMC so I couldn't see him anyway........... nope, no real benefit.
Everybody with ADS-B In can see you.
I don't think the plan behind ADS-B was really to operationally affect ATC except to eventually phase them out of the picture allowing it all to be handled in a P2P fashion.
John Collins
En-Route
All the centers have ADS-B, but it is part of a fused target from primary radar, secondary radar, and ADS-B. They can turn some of the stuff on to display on their scope, but as I understand it they usually don't. The approach control facilities don't have the equipment as of yet except in a few areas. At some point, ADS-B will be authorized to be used in lieu of radar, so that during a radar outage, routings that depend on radar would be authorized, but it is not approved for this at the current time. If an approach or procedure indicates radar required, ADS-B is not yet approved as an alternative to radar. It will be, but not yet.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Last I checked, FAA still has big expensive balls.
One of them is on a hill north of KBKF.
FAA has already admitted they're keeping their balls, thank you.
So as long as FAA has their balls, ADS-B will just be an add on, like those kids that pierce their _____.
One of them is on a hill north of KBKF.
FAA has already admitted they're keeping their balls, thank you.
So as long as FAA has their balls, ADS-B will just be an add on, like those kids that pierce their _____.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
I hope this is sufficiently related so as not to be a thread hi-jack.
In today's ADS-B market, what is the least expen$ive ADS-B out equipment choice?
I am hoping that the technology becomes less expen$ive as 2020 looms upon us.
In today's ADS-B market, what is the least expen$ive ADS-B out equipment choice?
I am hoping that the technology becomes less expen$ive as 2020 looms upon us.
There are a couple UAT options I've seen advertised <$3k
NoHeat
En-Route
The question is not specific enough. It depends entirely on two things: the equipment you already have, and where you intend to fly.
Costs are lowest if you already have WAAS, you already have a Mode C transponder, and you plan to fly only in the US and only below Class A.
Hank S
En-Route
Exactly! That makes the cost zero. But it eliminates IFR flight, doesn't it? Kind of reduces the utility of the plane.
LoxaBagels
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I have been flying with ADS-B in/out for 1.5 years. ATC doesn't care...but we in the plane do. ATC still gives traffic advisories...about half the time we can already see the traffic on ADS-B.
We also see traffic when flying squawk 1200 VFR enroute...which is an extra added benefit.
Clark1961
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Exactly! That makes the cost zero. But it eliminates IFR flight, doesn't it? Kind of reduces the utility of the plane.
A few more restrictions than that to get to zero cost: not above 10,000' msl, no Bravo, no Charlie
bullwinkle
Pattern Altitude
Garmin GDL-84 is $3995, includes an approved GPS position source, ADS-B out with dual transmitters (1090/978MHz), and ADS-B in through wireless to an iPad running Garmin Pilot. It also takes the squawk from most transponders via serial cable, so you only enter the code in one one place, and it reads and transmits ident and emergency info as well.
That seems to be the most inexpensive full ADS-B suite I have seen so far. GDL-88 is similar, but includes wired outputs to display IN info to Garmin avionics and costs more.
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denverpilot
Tied Down
Oh really.
Exactly what specific ATC service is better because of not using slant range?
(This'll be good...)
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Light and Sporty Guy
Don't you get it???? This is Next Gen. Not last gen. Not someday gen. Next Gen!!!!!! Big improvements. Big!
With Next Gen, ATC will transition from ground based radar equipment to Satellite (yes, you heard that right, satellite!) based technology that relies on hundreds of ground based stations that don't replace the existing ground based radar (That's why you still need mode C). But, just think: Satellites! They were a really big deal back in the 1960's!
The benefits are clear. Real clear. Obvious. Haven't you heard that? If you don't see the obvious benefits then there must be something wrong with you.
Datadriver
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I predict it goes way up. More demand usually means higher prices.
dans2992
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Just curious (and I've noticed the same) why is there still traffic that ATC sees which does not appear on ADS-B in...? (Talking about Mode C traffic here)
NoHeat
En-Route
Do you have "out"? Having "out" helps a lot, to see traffic using TIS-B "in."
Just the same, even though I have "out", sometimes there is nearby mode-C traffic that doesn't show up with my stratus 2. And I am receiving several towers, so that's not the problem.
John Collins
En-Route
TISB is not perfect. Track jumps will occasionally occur. Ghosts will occasionally occur. The current TISB specification only includes mode C traffic above 1000 AGL although this is planned to be lowered to 500 AGL. TISB does not include transponder targets that don't have mode C or it is failed or off in the target. Certified systems won't display targets that are self declared to be not trustworthy. Antenna line of sight is critical as only one tower is assigned the task of uplinking TISB for a given aircraft, if a portable is being used and the antenna line of sight is blocked to that tower, then TISB won't be received. I personally would not rely on a portable system for traffic in an aluminum aircraft unless it has a belly mounted external antenna.
Cruiser
Pre-takeoff checklist
For clarity, you are stating this is an antenna issue, not a portable vs. certified issue?
Dav8or
Final Approach
I'm following all this ADS-B stuff with keen interest. I really want better traffic info than my current TIS system provides.
A couple of years ago I bought a GDL-39 and I'm just now getting around to installing it and I'm about to take the plane to the avionics shop so they can hard wire it to the plane and my 430. My 430 is WAAS and I have a GTX330 transponder that I was told for $1500 could do the out portion of the ADS-B.
However, the whole antenna discussion is making me wonder if my solution might be a little Micky Mouse and maybe I'm throwing good money after bad. Should I scrap this plan and spend to get proper dual antenna set up? Can the GDL-39 be hooked to two antennas? Current plan is to mount it to the glare shield and just use the little stubby antenna it came with.
A couple of years ago I bought a GDL-39 and I'm just now getting around to installing it and I'm about to take the plane to the avionics shop so they can hard wire it to the plane and my 430. My 430 is WAAS and I have a GTX330 transponder that I was told for $1500 could do the out portion of the ADS-B.
However, the whole antenna discussion is making me wonder if my solution might be a little Micky Mouse and maybe I'm throwing good money after bad. Should I scrap this plan and spend to get proper dual antenna set up? Can the GDL-39 be hooked to two antennas? Current plan is to mount it to the glare shield and just use the little stubby antenna it came with.
MooneyDriver78
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UngaWunga
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So the 430W and GTX330 is what I have now, with GDL-39 and android tablet/Pilot. I get traffic on the 430W from the 330, including audio warnings when they're close. I also see it on the tablet running Pilot.
First time we really used it was a flight up to northern Maine for a camping trip. The both displays had most of the planes, but I heard FF talking to others in the area that didn't show up. I also saw another plane that didn't show up on the displays.
NoHeat
En-Route
Indeed! Thanks, John. It's great to to get info from an avionics expert.
The external antenna for a Stratus can really help receive more towers. With the internal antenna I typically received only about two towers -- that improved to about six towers when I added the external antenna mounted on the window using a suction cup. Do you suppose that will help reduce the problem you mentioned, of losing traffic due to losing line of sight with a tower?
John Collins
En-Route
Yes, it is an antenna issue in an aluminum airplane. The ADSB stations are on the ground and most aircraft shield a good portion of the view of the ground. A portable will not necessarily suppress some targets that a certified unit will, so one could say that the portable will show more targets than the certified system if it has a comparable antenna.
John Collins
En-Route
Yes, a belly mounted antenna will do a better job because of its generally unrestricted view of the ground. I discussed a case with a pilot of a Mooney that used an external antenna mounted to the RH rear window. Traveling west on the US/Canada border he was receiving 3 stations and on the return flight he was receiving 10 stations.