Antique as an "investment"?

saddletramp

saddletramp

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This is probably an subject that has been beaten to death but with investment returns being so pathetic as of late what about buying an old airplane as a long term investment?

I've got my eye on a fairly rare airplane built in the 40's. I figure I could pay cash for it, store it in a hangar, & fly it a few times a year.

Does this concept ever pencil out? I remember being a 16 year old in the 70's having a fellow offer me a nice Stinson for $2,500.00. My father thought the idea was ridiculous. But if I had of pulled the trigger & hung on to it think what it would be worth today.
 
saddletramp said:
This is probably an subject that has been beaten to death but with investment returns being so pathetic as of late what about buying an old airplane as a long term investment?

I've got my eye on a fairly rare airplane built in the 40's. I figure I could pay cash for it, store it in a hangar, & fly it a few times a year.

Does this concept ever pencil out? I remember being a 16 year old in the 70's having a fellow offer me a nice Stinson for $2,500.00. My father thought the idea was ridiculous. But if I had of pulled the trigger & hung on to it think what it would be worth today.
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I have no experience in investing in planes but...I'd be much more willing to invest in stock/rentals/bonds/etc than planes. I don't think the plane market fluctuates like old cars do, but then I again I have no experience in it. I think you'd be more successful in fixing up a plane if you have the experience to do it.
 
If you try and fly it, the maintenance costs will offset any appreciation. If you want an airplane as an investment, then buy the right one, pickle the engine and store it in a dry climate for 20 years.
 
Buy it. Fly it. Airplanes shouldn't be hangar queens. Keep the insurance values high in case something goes wrong. One man's junk is another's treasure. When the time comes to part with it, you're faced with finding the right person.
Enjoy the heck out of it.
 
Depends, seems like it's not too hard to hedge inflation with them.

I've seen folks also use a stearman to give rides at $299 a head for 30min, I've made money with my 185 too doing a few little jobs.
 
I would tell you that prices for antiques are falling. Look at what Stearmans were bringing 15 years ago vs today. The market has fallen substantially. Same for Swifts and a bunch of other antiques.

IMO (with no supporting data), what we're seeing is people who bought antiques because those were their dream airplanes as youths, but there are fewer and fewer people who are old enough to remember when Stearman, Swifts, etc. were "the kool thing" as a kid. I see some of the same with classic cars. Yes, the nicest ones are appreciating, but if you have a mediocre 1957 Ford Thunderbird, it hasn't appreciated a bit in a long time. Why? Because those 20 year olds who loved those cars are pushing 80 now, so there are not a whole lot of 'em left, and the ones who are left may have other priorities.
 
kyleb said:
I would tell you that prices for antiques are falling. Look at what Stearmans were bringing 15 years ago vs today. The market has fallen substantially. Same for Swifts and a bunch of other antiques.
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This is true. Some hold their value more than others. Stearmans have indeed taken a pretty big hit ( more so than Wacos). But even the ones that tend to hold value can sit on the market for a while before the right buyer comes along. It takes a unique individual to buy a unique airplane.

Within the last few years, antique prices (specifically pre-WWII) were being driven up by foreigners who were buying up golden age airplanes and you could make a decent return. That seems to have cooled off a bit.
 
Fearless Tower said:
This is true. Some hold their value more than others. Stearmans have indeed taken a pretty big hit ( more so than Wacos). But even the ones that tend to hold value can sit on the market for a while before the right buyer comes along. It takes a unique individual to buy a unique airplane.

Within the last few years, antique prices (specifically pre-WWII) were being driven up by foreigners who were buying up golden age airplanes and you could make a decent return. That seems to have cooled off a bit.
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Not so much as the market value, but the dollar depreciation.

1958, I bought 2 Cessna 195s, and a stagger wing beech.(D-17-S) for $2500.00. Would you like to pay storage on them from then to now? I sold the 3 engines for 2000 each, ran the fuselages over with a dozer and pushed them into the land fill.
Who wanted to mess with those old aircraft? the Cessna's were selling like hot cakes and they didn't leak. ran on half the fuel. took a quarter off the maintenance.
If you really want a great old Stinson Early SR series, let me know it needs a restoration, but it's 20 grand, engine (Lycomimg 330 horse W680) plus all spare parts. It's in a hangar at PAE. It was out of annual when the old guy put it away, long time ago. will have to be disassembled to move.
It would be a great project to do payday to payday. little by little and end up with a great old flyer that the whole family could enjoy.
 
You can make money restoring the right old aircraft. but you must buy right, and know your time invested is free, but the reward of flying them after is priceless.


the money ain't all of it :)
 
As a pure investment, flying it while waiting for it to appreciate will cost maintenance, insurance, and hangar expenses, most likely costing much more than any value that will be acrued over time. If it's a pure investment, best thing to do is to pickle the engine and crate the fuselage in a climate controlled storage unit. Not much fun, but probably the best way to protect the value.
 
Fearless Tower said:
This is true. Some hold their value more than others. Stearmans have indeed taken a pretty big hit ( more so than Wacos). But even the ones that tend to hold value can sit on the market for a while before the right buyer comes along. It takes a unique individual to buy a unique airplane.

Within the last few years, antique prices (specifically pre-WWII) were being driven up by foreigners who were buying up golden age airplanes and you could make a decent return. That seems to have cooled off a bit.
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What on earth are foreigners doing with these old airplanes? They can't fly a US registered airplane without a US pilot's licence. Are they shipping them home? Or leaving them in storage in the USA as a sort of personal museum/speculation?
 
GRG55 said:
What on earth are foreigners doing with these old airplanes? They can't fly a US registered airplane without a US pilot's licence. Are they shipping them home? Or leaving them in storage in the USA as a sort of personal museum/speculation?
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They crate them up and ship them overseas. Most go down under (Australia/NZ) but some to collectors in Europe. They were buying antiques right and left a few years ago. Travel Airs, Wacos, early model Electras, even some museum quality Beech 18s.

And they fly them.
 
Fearless Tower said:
They crate them up and ship them overseas. Most go down under (Australia/NZ) but some to collectors in Europe. They were buying antiques right and left a few years ago. Travel Airs, Wacos, early model Electras, even some museum quality Beech 18s.

And they fly them.
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I'll bet that was when their respective currencies ( €, £, AUS$) were at more favourable exchange rates against the US$ than today, which might explain some of the "cooling off".
 
Check the FAA web page for N19143
 
Its the hangar cost that kills the economics. If you can find a free museum to put it in, or some other free hangar (like a barn on your land (not really free, but...). I wanted to do it with a Monocoupe and didn't.
 
Just inflation on $2500 from 1970 to 2015 takes it to about $15,000.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Its the hangar cost that kills the economics. If you can find a free museum to put it in, or some other free hangar (like a barn on your land (not really free, but...). I wanted to do it with a Monocoupe and didn't.
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Huh?

My hangar is a afterthought, plus with the other stuff I store and use the hangar for...
I have more trucks and sports cars than garage space at my house

If you're a CPL or better and your plane is 91 100hr ready, and you are into your aviation community and have a useful plane, biz will come your way.

Zero marketing and my plane has made me 7% a year, based on its value, and I have a HECK of a lot more fun with it than my investment account ;)

I could make more giving weekend rides in a warm environment with a open bi plane, heck if I could work it, I'd love a stripped out 182, wouldn't mind being a DZO
 
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If you're a CPL or better and your plane is 91 100hr ready, and you are into your aviation community and have a useful plane, biz will come your way[/QUOTE]
How many antique or classic aircraft are part 135 capable for that mission?

Damn few. Last I knew the airshow rides thing was a part 135 op.
 
Tom-D said:
How many antique or classic aircraft are part 135 capable for that mission?

Damn few. Last I knew the airshow rides thing was a part 135 op.
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Where on earth did you get that idea???

Air show rides are covered under 91.147

A LOA from the FSDO is all that is required. Takes a couple weeks once you get your paperwork together.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Where on earth did you get that idea???

Air show rides are covered under 91.147

A LOA from the FSDO is all that is required. Takes a couple weeks once you get your paperwork together.
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Yup

As far as my personal stuff, got zero interest in 135, lots of money and less BS on pt91
 
The F-8F I sold in 1973 for $33,000 sold last year for $1,875,000. I hear he sold at a loss.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Where on earth did you get that idea???

Air show rides are covered under 91.147

A LOA from the FSDO is all that is required. Takes a couple weeks once you get your paperwork together.
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to get that letter is nearly as bad as a full 135 certificate.

91.147 Passenger carrying flights for compensation or hire.
Each Operator conducting passenger-carrying flights for compensation or hire must meet the following requirements unless all flights are conducted under §91.146.

(a) For the purposes of this section and for drug and alcohol testing, Operator means any person conducting nonstop passenger-carrying flights in an airplane or helicopter for compensation or hire in accordance with §§119.1(e)(2), 135.1(a)(5), or 121.1(d), of this chapter that begin and end at the same airport and are conducted within a 25-statute mile radius of that airport.

(b) An Operator must comply with the safety provisions of part 136, subpart A of this chapter, and apply for and receive a Letter of Authorization from the Flight Standards District Office nearest to its principal place of business.

(c) Each application for a Letter of Authorization must include the following information:

(1) Name of Operator, agent, and any d/b/a (doing-business-as) under which that Operator does business;

(2) Principal business address and mailing address;

(3) Principal place of business (if different from business address);

(4) Name of person responsible for management of the business;

(5) Name of person responsible for aircraft maintenance;

(6) Type of aircraft, registration number(s), and make/model/series; and

(7) An Antidrug and Alcohol Misuse Prevention Program registration.

(d) The Operator must register and implement its drug and alcohol testing programs in accordance with part 120 of this chapter.

(e) The Operator must comply with the provisions of the Letter of Authorization received.

Only thing missing is the required SB to be complied with.
 
Never heard of a Fairchild doing it, lots of biplanes have em
 
Tom-D said:
to get that letter is nearly as bad as a full 135 certificate.
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If you really think that then you must know nothing about 135.

I HAVE done this with an antique. It literally took me two weeks to get my 1933 Waco on a LOA. Hardest part is getting the drug program up and running if you aren't able to piggy back on someone else's program. The same FSDO that issued us the 91.147 LOA is running 1-2 years to process a new 135 certificate.
 
Fearless Tower said:
If you really think that then you must know nothing about 135.

I HAVE done this with an antique. It literally took me two weeks to get my 1933 Waco on a LOA. Hardest part is getting the drug program up and running if you aren't able to piggy back on someone else's program. The same FSDO that issued us the 91.147 LOA is running 1-2 years to process a new 135 certificate.
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Yer right, 135 isn't what I do. And I'm glad you didn't get stonewalled by your FSDO.
 
Well, some girl married her millionaire grandfather. I am guessing she did that as an investment for her future.....
 
Shepherd said:
The F-8F I sold in 1973 for $33,000 sold last year for $1,875,000. I hear he sold at a loss.
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That's about a 10% rate of return per year. Almost exactly the same as the S&P over the same time period.
 
Stagger wings go anywhere from 200 to 400 grand. Wonderful airplane. I've ridden in one and it's a great airplane. If you sold one for 2500 bucks you really screwed up big time!
 
ColoPilot said:
That's about a 10% rate of return per year. Almost exactly the same as the S&P over the same time period.
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Except the million dollars plus he he spent over the years on it. He claims only three years where he made more than he spent on it. I think some of that is for the benefit of the IRS, if they are listening
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Stagger wings go anywhere from 200 to 400 grand. Wonderful airplane. I've ridden in one and it's a great airplane. If you sold one for 2500 bucks you really screwed up big time!
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I did not sell it. I junked it, after I sold the engine for 2 grand.
A D-17-S is about the only aircraft you could possibly meet costs for holding it for 70 years of storage. who thinks 70 years ahead.

The average 172 sold in 1967, will make the numbers and you could have flown it regularly, did the maintenance as part of the flying costs, and to day sold it for around 25-30k
 
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