Another Warrantless Aircraft Search ( Iowa)

Skylane81E said:
Rule #1 someone is always recording
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This really is the reason - you never freaking know. Look at Romney and the 47% comment - he got nailed by a bartender who was part of the great unwashed . . .
 
Old Geek said:
2. Someone "tipped" the cops that the pilot was carrying contraband. Either in good faith or falsely to get the guy harassed. I'd put my money on this one. The cops will keep their mouths shut because they don't want to look like greater fools. Nor do they want to be held accountable for their overreaching.
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Do a net search for "celebrity swatting" to find out just how often the police are used or abused by anonymous tipsters.
 
SkyHog said:
Unless I'm mistaken, by the time that the police officer would lie about consent, he'd already know if there was a video, right? The joys of discovery should reveal that.
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I'd never tell the prosecution about it - that rebuttal testimony.

Me: Officer, you testified my client consented to the search of his aircraft
Cop: Yes, that is correct.
Me: There is no chance you could be mistaken [sound of the trap opening]
Cop: None. [knowing that they searched his phone completely]
Me: 100% certainty that your search was the result of consent by the defendant.
Cop: Yes.
Me: What did you and what did he say?
Cop: I asked him if he minded if I took a look in his aircraft. He said, 'No problem, or words to that effect." [boy that cheese looks good]
Me: Your honor, I'd like marked and introduce an iPad mini bearing serial number - blah blah blah
Prosecutor: Objection. This is not on the dcoument list - blah blah blah
Me: This is my client's iPad mini which was mounted on the yoke inside his aircraft, I can bring him up for the limited purpose of identifying it and certifying what I am about to play has not been altered or removed from this iPad since it was created [bring my client to the stand, its his ipad, he turned on the audio recording function when the officer arrived at the aircraft before he got out, has not changed it since, etc etc etc
Judge: Ok - solely for the purpose of rebuttal counsel I'll mark as Defendant's Exhibit 1. OVer hte object of Prosecution, so noted.
Me: Officer, before I play this would you like to alter any of your prior testimony under oath. [whats that spring noise, ouch]
Cop: Uh. [right here - the smart ones say NO - because they don't want to be cross examined under oath about their lie. The stupid ones change their testimony on the stand - the BRILLIANT ones claim the fifth amendment]
Recording:
Hello, Sir, I'm Officer friendly, I'd like to ask you a few questions.
Pilot: I understand your authority officer, but I wish to remain silent.
Cop: "Well, not sure what you have hide here,m I just ask want to ask a few questions.
Pilot: As I said officer, I intend to remain silent.
Cop: Then I'm gonna need to search your airplane here. This silent stuff is pretty suspicious. In my experience people who don't speak have something to hide.
Pilot: I do not consent to a search of my aircraft or my person. Do you have a warrant?
Cop: Sir, please. You need get down off that wing and stand over there. If you interfere with me I am going to have you arrested for interference and obstruction. I'll give you one last chance to make it easy on yourself and let me search this airplane the easy way. . . .
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They will not lie overtly. They may try to claim implied consent. It is the only place most LEO's will not lie. . . at least directly or if they think they might be proven to be lying. . . they will generally stretch the truth at a traffic stop because they are dealing with the public and not lawyers - they make great witnesses - because they are such good liars.
 
JeffDG said:
Just needs to do it once when someone's iPhone is in their pocket recording the encounter...and his credibility will be shot entirely to hell...ain't technology grand!
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Yeah, but in Illinois, it was illegal to record a police officer in the execution of their duties until last November, when the appeals court found it unconstitutional and the supreme court refused to hear the case! http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/05/...not-enforce-ban-on-recording-police-officers/
 
comanchepilot said:
Because once you give it, they no longer have to justify the search with objectively articulable facts . . .. and those pesky facts have more than once resulted in suppression of evidence discovered in the cars of idiots who give consent. . .
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Is there an echo in here?
 
comanchepilot said:
Me: Officer, before I play this would you like to alter any of your prior testimony under oath. [whats that spring noise, ouch]
Cop: Uh. [right here - the smart ones say NO - because they don't want to be cross examined under oath about their lie. The stupid ones change their testimony on the stand - the BRILLIANT ones claim the fifth amendment].
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Have you actually had that scenario play out? (It must really be something to watch!)
 
I have read it in a couple of cases . . . and heard first person stories.

Not an ipad - was a recording from a source the police did not expect.

Prob 2 times? does not happen alot since its hard to find an LEO who lies on the stand like that - they are not stupid.
 
comanchepilot said:
The phrase innocent til proven guilty is a misnomer because the verdict from a court or jury is 'Not Guilty' which is a whole lot different than innocent. . . .
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California does have the option for petitioning for a verdict of factual innocence. The LA Times recently did a 2 part piece on a domestic abuse case on how an ex-husband was brought up on charges when the ex-wife staged injuries and lied to the police about who inflicted them. The ex-husband was able to prove (with police assistance, actually) that the ex-wife's story was BS, and was able to get a factually innocent ruling from a judge.

denverpilot said:
Expect more jury nullification as time goes on.
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Now that's something that California is violently opposed to. They will make your life very difficult if you lobby for nullification anywhere near a jury box, even as a juror.

comanchepilot said:
Cop: Then I'm gonna need to search your airplane here. This silent stuff is pretty suspicious. In my experience people who don't speak have something to hide.
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I've actually gotten out of a search that way. Police were doing random searches of cars leaving a venue parking lot and tried to bluff me into a consent.

Cop: Can I search your vehicle?
Me: I do not consent to any search.
Cop: Why aren't you letting me search? Do you have something to hide?
Me: I do not consent to any search.
Cop: Your refusal is suspicious and gives me probable cause to search, make your life easier and consent. (paraphrased from a stern talking-down-to)
Me: US v. Fuentes, 9th district "Mere refusal to consent to a stop or search does not give rise to reasonable suspicion or probable cause". Try again.
Cop: Uuuhhhh.... move along.

(California is in the 9th).

Edit: I was in a convertible with the top down. He could see everything other than what was in the trunk from where he was standing.

--Carlos V.
 
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JeffDG said:
Sorry, but the average person who isn't smart enough to avoid jury duty will continue to bleat like little sheep.
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I actually would enjoy Jury Duty and would have been on a Murder 1 case with possibility of Death Sentence were it not for the Judge being kind when I said I already had paid for tickets to go to Hawaii during the personal interview round after 300 potential jurors were called.

He didn't have to call that a true "hardship" after all, but I think he understood he'd probably be trying another Murder case instigated by Karen if he didn't see fit to let me go.

The questionnaires we filled out prior to the personal interviews and group sessions were fascinating -- you could see things the Attorneys from both sides were trying to eliminate in the juror pool.
 
Pilot: I do not consent to a search of my aircraft or my person. Do you have a warrant?
Cop: Sir, please. You need get down off that wing and stand over there. If you interfere with me I am going to have you arrested for interference and obstruction. I'll give you one last chance to make it easy on yourself and let me search this airplane the easy way. . . .
Pilot: ?????
 
paflyer said:
Pilot: I do not consent to a search of my aircraft or my person. Do you have a warrant?
Cop: Sir, please. You need get down off that wing and stand over there. If you interfere with me I am going to have you arrested for interference and obstruction. I'll give you one last chance to make it easy on yourself and let me search this airplane the easy way. . . .
Pilot: ?????
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Not even that polite. You've forgotten how it went for the Kings.

(At gunpoint...)

"Exit the aircraft and lay face down on the pavement with your hands where I can see them."

Or similar. The search was presumed.
 
paflyer said:
Pilot: I do not consent to a search of my aircraft or my person. Do you have a warrant?
Cop: Sir, please. You need get down off that wing and stand over there. If you interfere with me I am going to have you arrested for interference and obstruction. I'll give you one last chance to make it easy on yourself and let me search this airplane the easy way. . . .
Pilot: ?????
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I think it was established earlier in the thread that you have the right to withhold consent, but you do not have the right to stop them if they decide to search anyway. You should not try to physically block access to the aircraft.

What withholding consent does is to open up the possibility for your attorney to challenge the legality of the search if the case gets before a judge.
 
Skylane81E said:
You are "presumed innocent untill proven guilty"
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Anyone who believes that has never been charged with anything. The theory is that the police and prosecutor have to prove you did something wrong. The reality is that they will state their case, and the judge and jury will absolutely take them at their word unless you have some way of proving otherwise. After all, you wouldn't have been charged if you weren't a criminal scumbag, right?
 
AOPA questions CBP authority to search aircraft as questionable detentions continue. 14 questions posed by AOPA to CBP about their authority. Expected cursory response back, but this is far from over. http://ow.ly/lmhOM
 
TomHaines said:
AOPA questions CBP authority to search aircraft as questionable detentions continue. 14 questions posed by AOPA to CBP about their authority. Expected cursory response back, but this is far from over. http://ow.ly/lmhOM
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They do have the right to search any 'conveyance or vessel' anywhere in the US at any time for the presence of aliens (this is under the immigration powers they have). That inspection is limited to getting access to any compartment big enough to store a human. I understand their authority to search for contraband (under the customs powers) is much more limited, they either have to show that you came from the border or you have to be within X miles of a POE. It looks like CBP air&marine interprets those laws a bit differently in that they call anything they do 'national security' and hope to escape further scrutiny that way.
 
denverpilot said:
Not even that polite. You've forgotten how it went for the Kings.

(At gunpoint...)

"Exit the aircraft and lay face down on the pavement with your hands where I can see them."

Or similar. The search was presumed.
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Let's remember exactly where the failure in that case was, the crap database. If you are driving around with the license plates of a wanted drug smuggler you can expect a felony stop. This was a real case of garbage in garbage out and it is the folks responsible for the lack of maintenance of the database that hold the blame.
 
Skylane81E said:
Let's remember exactly where the failure in that case was, the crap database. If you are driving around with the license plates of a wanted drug smuggler you can expect a felony stop. This was a real case of garbage in garbage out and it is the folks responsible for the lack of maintenance of the database that hold the blame.
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Incorrect in my view. Databases are tools. When someone decides to stop thinking and act upon data in a database, they have not a damned clue about how error-prone most data-entry and retrieval systems are. (Re: this incident, various TSA problems with people who have similar names, etc.)

Nothing requires, note the word... Requires... anyone to do anything about information given from another agency's database.

Realistically yes. They're going to. Do they have to? No.
 
Actually, no.

422 U.S. 873
95 S.Ct. 2574.
45 L.Ed.2d 607
UNITED STATES, Petitioner,
v.
Felix Humberto BRIGNONI-PONCE.
No. 74—114.
Argued Feb. 18, 1975.
Decided June 30, 1975.
Syllabus

The Fourth Amendment held not to allow a roving patrol of the Border Patrol to stop a vehicle near the Mexican border and question its occupants about their citizenship and immigration status, when the only ground for suspicion is that the occupants appear to be of Mexican ancestry. Except at the border and its functional equivalents, patrolling officers may stop vehicles only if they are aware of specific articulable facts, together with rational inferences therefrom, reasonably warranting suspicion that the vehicles contain aliens who may be illegally in the country. Pp. 878-887.

(a) Because of the important governmental interest in preventing the illegal entry of aliens at the border, the minimal intrusion of a brief stop, and the absence of practical alternatives for policing the border, an officer, whose observations lead him reasonably to suspect that a particular vehicle may contain aliens who are illegally in the country, may stop the car briefly, question the driver and passengers about their citizenship and immigration status, and ask them to explain suspicious circumstances; but any further detention or search must be based on consent or probable cause. Pp. 878-882.

(b) To allow roving patrols the broad and unlimited discretion urged by the Government to stop all vehicles in the border area without any reason to suspect that they have violated any law, would not be 'reasonable' under the Fourth Amendment. Pp. 882-883.

(c) Assuming that Congress has the power to admit aliens on condition that they submit to reasonable questioning about their right to be in the country, such power cannot diminish the Fourth Amendment rights of citizens who may be mistaken for aliens. The Fourth Amendment therefore forbids stopping persons for questioning about their citizenship on less than a reasonable suspicion that they may be aliens. Pp. 883-884.

9 Cir., 499 F.2d 1109, affirmed.

Andrew L. Frey, Washington, D.C., for petitioner.

John J. Cleary, Redwood City, Cal., for respondent.

Mr. Justice POWELL delivered the opinion of the Court.
weilke said:
They do have the right to search any 'conveyance or vessel' anywhere in the US at any time for the presence of aliens (this is under the immigration powers they have). That inspection is limited to getting access to any compartment big enough to store a human. I understand their authority to search for contraband (under the customs powers) is much more limited, they either have to show that you came from the border or you have to be within X miles of a POE. It looks like CBP air&marine interprets those laws a bit differently in that they call anything they do 'national security' and hope to escape further scrutiny that way.
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Ted I would buy your knee jerk defense of IRS political activists if they were nondenominational. Being that they were specifically targeting groups viewed to be hostile to the current administration they were obviously doing selective enforcement of rules.. Your defense is grossly misplaced.
Hi ho, hi ho, so off to SZ we go.

Anyway, if being held up by law enforcement simply say you do NOT consent to any search. Be utterly clear. "I do not consent to any search of myself or my property."
(do not do anything stupid like raising your hands or stepping towards an officer - they live for that - or cursing them out)
Just keep asking, "Am I under arrest.?" (of course you would know if you were because you would be face down on the tarmac with a knee in your back)
And when they say "no" then you immediately ask, "Am I free to go?"
And just keep asking "Am I free to go."
This puts them in a small legal bind.
After a few iterations of telling you that you cannot go, it begins to seep into the group collection of thick skulls that they are way, way out on thin legal ice.
They have not arrested you because they do not have probable cause.
Which also makes it legally dicey to hold you against your will once you ask to go. (if you don't ask to go they are free to keep you all night arguing to the judge that you 'voluntarily' remained there)

Now, you cannot stop men with badges and guns and police authority from doing what they want to do right then and there.
What you are accomplishing is making them think about what might happen if/when you drag them into court.
Make em nervous about higher-ups demanding "Whut the hell were you doin?" and they will walk away.

denny-o (old police surgeon who understands street bulls)
 
"You started in California and flew from west to east."

Given that MOST states are east of California, I can't imagine that they have the manpower to search every plane that does that. :loco:
 
Apparently a country that can't afford to staff its Air Traffic Control facilities, let alone maintain its highways and bridges, has an endless amount of money to fund paramilitary police operations in search of marijuana.

Jon
 
4CornerFlyer said:
Apparently a country that can't afford to staff its Air Traffic Control facilities, let alone maintain its highways and bridges, has an endless amount of money to fund paramilitary police operations in search of marijuana.

Jon
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The never ending fraud of a government that hides a multitude of sins under the headings, "war on drugs" and "national security."
 
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Unfortunately only the Atlantic & AOPA are publicizing this issue.
 
4CornerFlyer said:
Apparently a country that can't afford to staff its Air Traffic Control facilities, let alone maintain its highways and bridges, has an endless amount of money to fund paramilitary police operations in search of marijuana.

Jon
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I believe that a lot of police departments get funding from confiscation of alleged drug-related property, even if that isn't established in a court of law.

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/news/x1522324581/Drug-money-pads-DA-police-budgets
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91490480
 
TomHaines said:
AOPA questions CBP authority to search aircraft as questionable detentions continue. 14 questions posed by AOPA to CBP about their authority. Expected cursory response back, but this is far from over. http://ow.ly/lmhOM
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As an editor, I'm sure you noticed that not only did they fail to respond, they also failed to write good sentences.

Let's look at their two meager sentences:
“In accordance with the Privacy Act among other legal and policy considerations, CBP does not release information to the public about individuals who may be encountered by Air Interdiction Agents"
​
"In accordance with ... legal and policy considerations" is a poor construction. The noun "consideration" is a weak throw-away word here. This sentence would have been a little better written as "In accordance with ... laws and policies." Even so, the laws and policies are not specified, so they give no weight to the argument. They are throw-aways as well. Omitting them altogether would have been an improvement.
"Although we regret any inconvenience that these activities may have, we welcome an open dialogue with the general aviation community as we work together to maintain civil liberties and protect against threats to the U.S.”
​
"Although" was the wrong way to start this sentence. The two ideas that the word introduce, regret and welcome, are not in conflict in this sentence. It's like saying "Although it's a good morning, the weather is nice." Dumb.

The writer forgot the word "caused." It is missing just before the comma. Even dumber.
 
Here's my theory.

There are billions and billions of our tax dollars to be had for empire building. All you have to do is build something you can pass off as a credible excuse to get enough money to become king of your own little corner of the bureaucracy. Plus - you've got to justify the billions you already get.

So, you send jump-suited troops out to do random stop-and-search operations, involving as many LEOs as possible, and hope you get lucky once in a while. All it takes is ONE little roach, or ONE expired or borrowed or mis-labeled prescription, and all the sudden you have a "successful drug interdiction", at least as far as it's going to get reported in this year's statistics. And the local LEOs love you, because you give them a chance to try out all their new Kevlar and tactical gear and armored vehicles, purchased with our tax dollars courtesy of DHS. Now they can claim that they were called upon to support the Feds in a drug interdiction. It makes the numbers look good, and helps them get more funding -- which is the name of the game.

You make sure your troops are armed with the most important tools of all -- the tools to make criminals let them do what they want (and by "criminal" we mean anyone not working with DHS at that moment. There are no innocent citizens, just criminals they haven't caught - yet.) Lies, deceit, intimidation, and of course the handy drug dog, whose handler can say, "Uh, sure, yeah, right - I think he alerted." There's your probable cause, go ahead and dismantle that vehicle along with the rights and freedoms of the occupants.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm a huge fan of enforcing laws. I'm not anti-authority - but I am anti-abuse-thereof. This kind of nonsense has got to stop. If you have a REAL reason to think I'm a drug smuggler - actual evidence, for example, or a credible tip, or you see me coming across the Mexican border flying nap-of-earth along creek beds - then, sure, get a warrant and search away. I think, though, that we're seeing the 4th Amendment run through the shredder. The sad part is that most people just won't care until it's THEIR car pulled over and dismantled for no reason. By the time it's happened enough to make the majority of the country take notice, I'm afraid it will be too late.

Sorry for the lengthy rant, and I hope this doesn't send the thread to the SZ. If so, mods please feel free to delete it.
 
DaleB said:
Here's my theory.

There are billions and billions of our tax dollars to be had for empire building. All you have to do is build something you can pass off as a credible excuse to get enough money to become king of your own little corner of the bureaucracy. Plus - you've got to justify the billions you already get.

So, you send jump-suited troops out to do random stop-and-search operations, involving as many LEOs as possible, and hope you get lucky once in a while. All it takes is ONE little roach, or ONE expired or borrowed or mis-labeled prescription, and all the sudden you have a "successful drug interdiction", at least as far as it's going to get reported in this year's statistics. And the local LEOs love you, because you give them a chance to try out all their new Kevlar and tactical gear and armored vehicles, purchased with our tax dollars courtesy of DHS. Now they can claim that they were called upon to support the Feds in a drug interdiction. It makes the numbers look good, and helps them get more funding -- which is the name of the game.

You make sure your troops are armed with the most important tools of all -- the tools to make criminals let them do what they want (and by "criminal" we mean anyone not working with DHS at that moment. There are no innocent citizens, just criminals they haven't caught - yet.) Lies, deceit, intimidation, and of course the handy drug dog, whose handler can say, "Uh, sure, yeah, right - I think he alerted." There's your probable cause, go ahead and dismantle that vehicle along with the rights and freedoms of the occupants.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm a huge fan of enforcing laws. I'm not anti-authority - but I am anti-abuse-thereof. This kind of nonsense has got to stop. If you have a REAL reason to think I'm a drug smuggler - actual evidence, for example, or a credible tip, or you see me coming across the Mexican border flying nap-of-earth along creek beds - then, sure, get a warrant and search away. I think, though, that we're seeing the 4th Amendment run through the shredder. The sad part is that most people just won't care until it's THEIR car pulled over and dismantled for no reason. By the time it's happened enough to make the majority of the country take notice, I'm afraid it will be too late.

Sorry for the lengthy rant, and I hope this doesn't send the thread to the SZ. If so, mods please feel free to delete it.
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Absolutely excellent post..:yes::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
4CornerFlyer said:
Apparently a country that can't afford to staff its Air Traffic Control facilities, let alone maintain its highways and bridges, has an endless amount of money to fund paramilitary police operations in search of marijuana.

Jon
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Apparently a large amount of the electorate consider anyone not supporting massive amounts of national security to be a liberal traitor to America. So what the heck do you really expect?

Show me anyone that runs on a platform of weakening police and military that gets elected for office higher than dog catcher? It doesn't happen. We get the government we deserve. :mad2:
 
DaleB said:
Here's my theory.

There are billions and billions of our tax dollars to be had for empire building. All you have to do is build something you can pass off as a credible excuse to get enough money to become king of your own little corner of the bureaucracy. Plus - you've got to justify the billions you already get.

So, you send jump-suited troops out to do random stop-and-search operations,
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Yes.

And here's the king. Tex Alles.
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/about/organization/assist_comm_off/amo_assistant_commissioner.xml.

alles_5femb.jpg


edit:smaller photo
 
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denverpilot said:
Not even that polite. You've forgotten how it went for the Kings.

(At gunpoint...)

"Exit the aircraft and lay face down on the pavement with your hands where I can see them."

Or similar. The search was presumed.
Click to expand...

And I do believe that they filed and presently have pending a 42 USC 1983 claim against DEA and the officers and various departments involved due to the gross negligence of how that came to be . . .
 
weilke said:
They do have the right to search any 'conveyance or vessel' anywhere in the US at any time for the presence of aliens (this is under the immigration powers they have).
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Hmmm, CBP/DHS/TSA agents doing federal inspections(in this case, illegal) have rights?

One of us has a very skewed understanding of the word 'rights' as it relates to citizens, and the country they live in.
 
TomHaines said:
AOPA questions CBP authority to search aircraft as questionable detentions continue. 14 questions posed by AOPA to CBP about their authority. Expected cursory response back, but this is far from over. http://ow.ly/lmhOM
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From the article:

**Fresh reports from pilots subjected to ramp checks and aircraft searches suggest a pattern, though federal officials remain, essentially, moot on the details.

I wonder if that's like remaining 'mute'?

Once more, AOPA is requesting information from a federal agency. How about they open the damn checkbook and hire a federal litigation atty to get this shyte stopped, or get to the bottom of the authority. But no - the AOPA wouldn't want to do that.

Has anyone noticed the CBP/DHS never happen to stop a jet coming from CA, or flying near the border? It's always a light plane, or small twin.

Hmmmmm, whatever they can get away with, they will.
 
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docmirror said:
Has anyone noticed the CBP/DHS never happen to stop a jet coming from CA, or flying near the border? It's always a light plane, or small twin
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Maybe because jets are almost always on IFR flight plans? Some of the reports we've seen suggest the Federales look askance at people flying around willy-nilly without benefit of official blessing and supervision.
 
Pilawt said:
Maybe because jets are almost always on IFR flight plans? Some of the reports we've seen suggest the Federales look askance at people flying around willy-nilly without benefit of official blessing and supervision.
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because, that's, you know, called Freedom.
 
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