Another One for HENNING - - -

Have all the solo voyages been illegal?
 
Article said:
But Paris isn’t frightened. An experienced sailor who already holds several records, Paris has downloaded e-books, packed 150 days’ worth of dehydrated food, and stashed enough single-malt Scotch to last just 120 days. That’s incentive, he said, to arrive on time.
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Experienced, perhaps, but not very bright...

-Rich
 
When I read all the responses, I had to make sure I didn't accidentally sign on to quiltersofamerica.com.

The guy is 76 years old. His peers are slurping mush and watching Jeopardy in some old age home. What's the worst thing that can happen?

I find this guy inspirational.
 
Alexb2000 said:
When I read all the responses, I had to make sure I didn't accidentally sign on to quiltersofamerica.com.

The guy is 76 years old. His peers are slurping mush and watching Jeopardy in some old age home. What's the worst thing that can happen?

I find this guy inspirational.
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He slams into one of the other of hundreds of boats out there smaller than him (70%+ of all boats plying the ocean are <30') and kills a family while he's sleeping, and yes, it happens.
 
Alexb2000 said:
When I read all the responses, I had to make sure I didn't accidentally sign on to quiltersofamerica.com.

The guy is 76 years old. His peers are slurping mush and watching Jeopardy in some old age home. What's the worst thing that can happen?

I find this guy inspirational.
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He could be arrested upon the completion of his voyage. Maybe for boating while intoxicated.:eek:
 
Henning said:
He slams into one of the other of hundreds of boats out there smaller than him (70%+ of all boats plying the ocean are <30') and kills a family while he's sleeping, and yes, it happens.
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Seriously! I would never have guessed there were so many small blue water boats out there. I thought a <30' boat would be an exception!
 
Henning said:
He slams into one of the other of hundreds of boats out there smaller than him (70%+ of all boats plying the ocean are <30') and kills a family while he's sleeping, and yes, it happens.
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Is there an active radar prox warning that could prevent this?
 
Henning said:
He slams into one of the other of hundreds of boats out there smaller than him (70%+ of all boats plying the ocean are <30') and kills a family while he's sleeping, and yes, it happens.
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Come on man! You're the guy who advocates flying 200' off the ground in low ceilings, for 100's of miles and this bothers you????
 
gismo said:
Is there an active radar prox warning that could prevent this?
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Most small boats don't carry active radar, those units are for small boats to not get run over by big ships or yachts that will run radar full time, this is not typical of sailboats who typically conserve electricity.
 
Alexb2000 said:
When I read all the responses, I had to make sure I didn't accidentally sign on to quiltersofamerica.com.

The guy is 76 years old. His peers are slurping mush and watching Jeopardy in some old age home. What's the worst thing that can happen?

I find this guy inspirational.
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Right. And he plans to undertake a grueling, illegal solo voyage, under sail only, leaving his vessel without a watch stander two-thirds of the time, and surviving on a diet of whiskey and dehydrated food. Which part of that is inspiring?

The only thing that inspires me is that his food supply exceeds his whiskey supply by 20 percent. I guess he only plans to be inebriated 80 percent of the time.

-Rich
 
RJM62 said:
Right. And he plans to undertake a grueling, illegal solo voyage, under sail only, leaving his vessel without a watch stander two-thirds of the time, and surviving on a diet of whiskey and dehydrated food. Which part of that is inspiring?

The only thing that inspires me is that his food supply exceeds his whiskey supply by 20 percent. I guess he only plans to be inebriated 80 percent of the time.

-Rich
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:nonod::nonod::nonod: The good thing, it's a big ocean. The bad thing, everybody points at the same few choke points and autopilots 'direct' from one to the next on a GPS slavering magenta line....
 
RJM62 said:
Right. And he plans to undertake a grueling, illegal solo voyage, under sail only, leaving his vessel without a watch stander two-thirds of the time, and surviving on a diet of whiskey and dehydrated food. Which part of that is inspiring?

The only thing that inspires me is that his food supply exceeds his whiskey supply by 20 percent. I guess he only plans to be inebriated 80 percent of the time.

-Rich
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This guy is 77 and has done it 7 times.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...in-Japan-after-solo-journey-around-globe.html

If I could change one thing in the U.S.A. it would be for our culture to embrace the "can do" attitude these kinds of people have and quit tearing everyone and everything down so we can feel better about our short comings.
 
Alexb2000 said:
This guy is 77 and has done it 7 times.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...in-Japan-after-solo-journey-around-globe.html

If I could change one thing in the U.S.A. it would be for our culture to embrace the "can do" attitude these kinds of people have and quit tearing everyone and everything down so we can feel better about our short comings.
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Until it costs a couple million dollars to rescue them from the middle of the ocean. I don't mind them doing whatever, but they should be allowed to die when their wonderful plan goes to hell, and executed when they kill someone else.
 
Henning said:
Until it costs a couple million dollars to rescue them from the middle of the ocean. I don't mind them doing whatever, but they should be allowed to die when their wonderful plan goes to hell, and executed when they kill someone else.
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Shouldn't the same standard be applied to flying?
 
Alexb2000 said:
Shouldn't the same standard be applied to flying?
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Pretty much, if you can't be rescued from your own negligence reasonably, you don't get rescued. Thing is, in aviation, if you kill someone of your own negligence, you typically die as well.

Few planes though can stay aloft past the endurance of a person to stay awake, those that do typically have a multi crew requirement including relief crew. The difference at sea is you can be on a single passage for a month, can't maintain a look out for that long, plus single handlers can't typically handle their rig alone when the weather goes bad, they can't reduce sail and end up getting knocked down and dismasted. Now we have some injured twit out in the middle of the ocean calling for help and someone's Navy ends up steaming out there burning ungodly amounts of fuel until they get close enough to launch a helo to get them and risk 3 more lives in the process. All because the guy was too cheap to have a crew. The only breed out there cheaper than pilots is sailors.
 
Henning said:
He slams into one of the other of hundreds of boats out there smaller than him (70%+ of all boats plying the ocean are <30') and kills a family while he's sleeping, and yes, it happens.
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oh c'mon Henning, you are telling me that in the North Atlantic in October there are boats smaller than 30' plying the waters with families of 4 aboard them?

And in the Pacific between The Strait of Molucca and Hawaii we have sub 30' boats with families aboard?

I'm truly having a tough time believing that one - pflemming makes more sense to me than that.
 
Alexb2000 said:
This guy is 77 and has done it 7 times.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...in-Japan-after-solo-journey-around-globe.html

If I could change one thing in the U.S.A. it would be for our culture to embrace the "can do" attitude these kinds of people have and quit tearing everyone and everything down so we can feel better about our short comings.
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I'm by no means saying that he shouldn't be allowed to do it. I'm a Libertarian. I believe he has every right to be a fool, if that's what he wants to do.

However, if in the course of being a fool he should require rescue, then he should be held responsible for paying the costs of same (which can run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars very, very quickly); and if, God forbid, someone is injured or killed because of his journey (for example, when his vessel is sailing itself unattended) he should be prosecuted.

I believe in personal freedom. I also believe in personal responsibility.

-Rich
 
comanchepilot said:
oh c'mon Henning, you are telling me that in the North Atlantic in October there are boats smaller than 30' plying the waters with families of 4 aboard them?

And in the Pacific between The Strait of Molucca and Hawaii we have sub 30' boats with families aboard?

I'm truly having a tough time believing that one - pflemming makes more sense to me than that.
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You betcha, cruisers are out there everywhere, and they take what they can afford. Lots of them cruising are young couples with kids pre-school age getting it done while they can before they have to deal with schools for their kids and won't be able to. There's also some that home school their kids onboard. I meet them all over the world, they can't afford big fancy boats, they take what they can afford, often that's less than 30'. A small well found boat is perfectly safe in the biggest of seas, just keep the water on the outside of the hull. There's one nutso gal solo ROWING across the Atlantic right now. The QEII dropped her some supplies the other day.
 
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Exhibit A.

Henning said:
Pretty much, if you can't be rescued from your own negligence reasonably, you don't get rescued. Thing is, in aviation, if you kill someone of your own negligence, you typically die as well.

Few planes though can stay aloft past the endurance of a person to stay awake, those that do typically have a multi crew requirement including relief crew. The difference at sea is you can be on a single passage for a month, can't maintain a look out for that long, plus single handlers can't typically handle their rig alone when the weather goes bad, they can't reduce sail and end up getting knocked down and dismasted. Now we have some injured twit out in the middle of the ocean calling for help and someone's Navy ends up steaming out there burning ungodly amounts of fuel until they get close enough to launch a helo to get them and risk 3 more lives in the process. All because the guy was too cheap to have a crew. The only breed out there cheaper than pilots is sailors.
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wabower said:
Required to have a beacon on board, then blasphemed for using it.
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wabower said:
Exhibit A.
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One thing to be prepared and still have things go wrong, another entirely to flaunt law, convention, and common sense to a predictable outcome and then expect others to come to your aid.

It's not just about your own safety either, at sea you also have the duty to render aid. Perfect example comes to mind in the first BOC Challenge, a single handed around the world race. Off Cape Horn in the Southern Ocean one of the lead boats lost his keel and sank in the night. He called for help on the radio as the entire rest of the fleet sailed by him asleep; he died.

There is nothing smart, heroic, or inspirational about setting off around the world single handed. When you meet these people in person you realize they are whack jobs and the reason they go single handed is because no one would get on a boat with them. If you want a good read about the matter and what it does to the mind, read Webb Chiles "Around the World Alone".

The last single handed delivery I did was over 20 years ago, a fish damned near sank the boat. I learned just how dumb it was.
 
Why did you mistakenly think my responses had anything to do with boats?

Henning said:
One thing to be prepared and still have things go wrong, another entirely to flaunt law, convention, and common sense to a predictable outcome and then expect others to come to your aid.

It's not just about your own safety either, at sea you also have the duty to render aid. Perfect example comes to mind in the first BOC Challenge, a single handed around the world race. Off Cape Horn in the Southern Ocean one of the lead boats lost his keel and sank in the night. He called for help on the radio as the entire rest of the fleet sailed by him asleep; he died.

There is nothing smart, heroic, or inspirational about setting off around the world single handed. When you meet these people in person you realize they are whack jobs and the reason they go single handed is because no one would get on a boat with them. If you want a good read about the matter and what it does to the mind, read Webb Chiles "Around the World Alone".

The last single handed delivery I did was over 20 years ago, a fish damned near sank the boat. I learned just how dumb it was.
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Cap'n Jack said:
So...this race is illegal? Why aren't they arrested when they hit port? They are all supposed to be sailing solo.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...-Vendee-Globe-round-the-world-yacht-race.html


http://www.vendeeglobe.org/en/
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Yep, arrests are rare in violations of administrative law, you don't see pilots flying without licenses get arrested either much do you? Let something tragic happen though and it brings an aggravated standing to the charges. There is nothing unclear about the wording in the COLREGS, and any nation signatory to IMO is bound by those rules as are their seamen. Enforcement is up to the flag state. I do recall that at least for a while, Australia barred its seamen from participating in these races under the Aussie flag, not sure if that still stands. The Vendee is what the BOC has been renamed, I think Duracell was the sponsor somewhere in the middle.
 
Sorry, Rule 5

1. Application
(a) These rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels.


2. Responsibility
(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case

5. Look-out
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.


It really doesn't get any more clear cut does it? How do you meet that burden when asleep?
 
Henning said:
Sorry, Rule 5

1. Application
(a) These rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels.


2. Responsibility
(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case

5. Look-out
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.


It really doesn't get any more clear cut does it? How do you meet that burden when asleep?
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Fascinating what I learn on an aviation forum. I would have assumed that a boat would drop anchor and go below to sleep, cook, or what ever. Thinking about it, dropping an anchor in the middle of the ocean is not exactly an option unless you towed a second boat with the rope.

If he runs into the boat with a family of 4 sleeping on it, wouldn't they be half responsible since they did not have a lookout either?

I am not a boat guy and don't see becoming one in my future, but I do find this interesting.

Jim
 
Topper said:
Fascinating what I learn on an aviation forum. I would have assumed that a boat would drop anchor and go below to sleep, cook, or what ever. Thinking about it, dropping an anchor in the middle of the ocean is not exactly an option unless you towed a second boat with the rope.

If he runs into the boat with a family of 4 sleeping on it, wouldn't they be half responsible since they did not have a lookout either?

I am not a boat guy and don't see becoming one in my future, but I do find this interesting.

Jim
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There are no innocent parties in a collision, "inextremis" covers that, but if you are the 'stand on vessel' you are burdened with maintaining course and speed, "until it becomes apparent that the maneuvering of one vessel alone will not be sufficient to avoid collision". The determination of that point is the tricky part. In big seas you may not see the other vessel until the very last second and then it takes both vessels maneuvering to avoid which under sail may very well present debilitating hazards of its own. An unprepared gybe can be the cause of great damage and injury.
 
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So do people actually leave the sails up or going under motor power and go below for extended periods of time? Can you stop and just drift? Looks like from the rules you posted earlier, that would not alleviate you from the responsibility to have a lookout.
 
Topper said:
So do people actually leave the sails up or going under motor power and go below for extended periods of time? Can you stop and just drift? Looks like from the rules you posted earlier, that would not alleviate you from the responsibility to have a lookout.
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No, people just keep it moving, on a boat that does 7kts top speed, you don't stop when the wind is blowing, you get enough drifting when becalmed. You are correct, stopping and drifting does not relieve one from the responsibility of having a lookout, if you are not secured to land through a dock or anchor, you are underway. Many boats at anchor also maintain an 'anchor watch' when crewed.

Typically a larger boat at sea is operated by a crew of 6 running 4hr on, 8hr off watches in teams of two. This allows one to relieve the other for breaks. Also when the weather is really bad and you have to hand drive the boat to the seas, you typically can't keep it up for more than an hour at a time, especially on cable quadrant or gear quadrant mechanical steering boats, it's just too much work and you get results like in the 1998 Sydney Hobart race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Sydney_to_Hobart_Yacht_Race). If you do a bit of research you'll find that the boats that experienced the tragedies were running short handed crews, and the helmsmen just couldn't manage the fatigue, it can really wear you out physically and mentally, adrenaline only lasts so long. You'll also note that there was still a finish to the race by a variety of sized boats that were properly crewed. Having a watch partner that can bring you a cup of coffee and spell you at the helm is invaluable. Another point is he can go below and wake the rest of the crew when it's time to reef sail and the boat is being over powered and you can't let go of the helm.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Any details on the fish story?
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Marlin put his bill through the bow of an old 47' Schooner and broke 2 planks, one port and one starboard. Got the bill out and wrapped a sail over it and CG dropped me 3 pumps not long after.
 
Henning said:
Yep, arrests are rare in violations of administrative law, you don't see pilots flying without licenses get arrested either much do you? Let something tragic happen though and it brings an aggravated standing to the charges. There is nothing unclear about the wording in the COLREGS, and any nation signatory to IMO is bound by those rules as are their seamen. Enforcement is up to the flag state. I do recall that at least for a while, Australia barred its seamen from participating in these races under the Aussie flag, not sure if that still stands. The Vendee is what the BOC has been renamed, I think Duracell was the sponsor somewhere in the middle.
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Kinda interesting how all those sponsors are pert of something illegal. Corporations usually don't do illegal things out in the open.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Kinda interesting how all those sponsors are pert of something illegal. Corporations usually don't do illegal things out in the open.
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Yep, most of them don't even realize it. How many marketing managers are aware of the COLREGS?
 
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