Another logging PIC question

Bonchie

Bonchie

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Bonchie
I'm thinking about joining a club that has an Arrow (along with two other fixed gear aircraft).

My thought was to get my IFR rating and the insurance required 25hrs retract time to fly the Arrow without a CFI at the same time by training in it.

Here's the question:

With the CFI in the plane, and assuming he gives me my complex/high performance endorsements after several hours, can I then log XC PIC time to work toward the 50 hour minimum as long as he's in the plane? Or do insurance minimums dictate who can be PIC even with a CFI?

P.S. I know all the rules about logging XC PIC while IFR training, sole manipulator of the controls, yada yada...that's not the question.
 
Bonchie said:
I'm thinking about joining a club that has an Arrow (along with two other fixed gear aircraft).

My thought was to get my IFR rating and the insurance required 25hrs retract time to fly the Arrow without a CFI at the same time by training in it.

Here's the question:

With the CFI in the plane, and assuming he gives me my complex/high performance endorsements after several hours, can I then log XC PIC time to work toward the 50 hour minimum as long as he's in the plane? Or do insurance minimums dictate who can be PIC even with a CFI?

P.S. I know all the rules about logging XC PIC while IFR training, sole manipulator of the controls, yada yada...that's not the question.
Click to expand...

Yes, you may log the XC time while the CFI is on board for the XC requirements of an inst rating. The insurance company doesn't care about who is logging PIC, but they require a CFI acting PIC during your first 25 hours in the Arrow.
 
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Bonchie said:
With the CFI in the plane, and assuming he gives me my complex/high performance endorsements after several hours, can I then log XC PIC time to work toward the 50 hour minimum as long as he's in the plane? Or do insurance minimums dictate who can be PIC even with a CFI?
Click to expand...
The Arrow is a single-engine land airplane. If you are a Private Pilot with SEL rating you can log all of the time that you are sole manipulator of the controls in the Arrow as PIC time. The complex endorsement is not required, the Arrow is not high performance, and it doesn't matter if the PIC is you (w/endorsement), a CFI, or another non-CFI pilot.

If you are the only sole manipulator on a cross-country flight then you can also log the flight as cross-country.
 
Bonchie said:
P.S. I know all the rules about logging XC PIC while IFR training, sole manipulator of the controls, yada yada...that's not the question.
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But it is the answer to the question you asked so you apparently don't know the rules as well as you think. The yada yada covers your situation completely.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
But it is the answer to the question you asked so you apparently don't know the rules as well as you think. The yada yada covers your situation completely.
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No, it's not.

The question was related to whether you can log PIC with a CFI without yet meeting the insurance minimums to otherwise be PIC of the aircraft if he weren't there.

I wasn't sure whether insurance minimums could dictate how you are allowed to log time with a CFI.

Now I know thanks to the other posters.
 
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Bonchie said:
No, it's not.

The question was related to whether you can log PIC with a CFI without yet meeting the insurance minimums to otherwise be PIC of the aircraft if he weren't there.

I wasn't sure whether insurance minimums could dictate how you are allowed to log time with a CFI.

Now I know thanks to the other posters.
Click to expand...

The question there would be when did the FAA empower the insurance companies? :wink2:

Have fun working on your IA
 
Insurance requirements have nothing to do with logging PIC time.
 
Bonchie said:
No, it's not.

The question was related to whether you can log PIC with a CFI without yet meeting the insurance minimums to otherwise be PIC of the aircraft if he weren't there.

I wasn't sure whether insurance minimums could dictate how you are allowed to log time with a CFI.

Now I know thanks to the other posters.
Click to expand...

You can log PIC without meeting the FAA minimums for acting as PIC of the aircraft, what would make you think that insurance minimums would apply?
 
Bonchie said:
No, it's not.

The question was related to whether you can log PIC with a CFI without yet meeting the insurance minimums to otherwise be PIC of the aircraft if he weren't there.

I wasn't sure whether insurance minimums could dictate how you are allowed to log time with a CFI.
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What language in 61.51 led you to think that insurance companies controlled who may log pic?

I'm not flaming. Just suggesting that you don't really understand the rules if you think of that question.
 
midlifeflyer said:
What language in 61.51 led you to think that insurance companies controlled who may log pic?

I'm not flaming. Just suggesting that you don't really understand the rules if you think of that question.
Click to expand...

I knew that the FAA wouldn't care as insurance isn't even their concern and it's why someone coming in and quoting part 61 to me wasn't going to help me understand.

I wasn't sure if the insurance company would come after me in the case of an accident if you are logging PIC in a plane you don't meet the minimums in, even with the CFI. That was my thought process, as silly as you guys may think it is. I knew there wasn't some FAR regulation that forbids it.
 
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Bonchie said:
With the CFI in the plane, and assuming he gives me my complex/high performance endorsements after several hours, can I then log XC PIC time to work toward the 50 hour minimum as long as he's in the plane? Or do insurance minimums dictate who can be PIC even with a CFI?
Click to expand...
The answer to both questions is "yes" -- yes, you can log it, and yes, the insurance minimums dictate who can be PIC. The reason is that we're dealing with two different, separate issues governed by different rules.

As noted above, while you can get your complex endorsement in the Arrow, you can't get your high performance endorsement in the Arrow. Further, up to that point where you get you complex endorsement, you can't legally act as PIC of that Arrow, period. However, once you get your complex endorsement, it is the insurance rules which require that your CFI act as PIC until you meet the insurance policy requirements for acting as PIC, and you don't want to violate an insurance policy requirement. Of course, once you have your complex endorsement, the FAA won't care about that, but if you damage the plane, you can bet your assets the insurance company will.

However, logging PIC time is strictly an FAA issue. Since you already have a PP-ASEL, you can log every minute of the time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of this aircraft in which you are rated as PIC time (and XC PIC time if the flight includes a landing more than 50nm from the original point of departure) even before you get the complex endorsement, and regardless of who is acting as PIC or what the insurance company says about acting as PIC.
 
midlifeflyer said:
What language in 61.51 led you to think that insurance companies controlled who may log pic?

I'm not flaming. Just suggesting that you don't really understand the rules if you think of that question.
Click to expand...
I can see someone being concerned that if they logged it as PIC time, and the insurance company became involved, the insurance company might because of that logbook entry suspect they were acting as PIC in violation of the insurance contract. Should that happen, I think the instructor's signature in the OP's logbook, the name on any flight plan, and the instructor's testimony would be sufficient to meet the "more likely than not" standard for showing the CFI, not the OP, was acting as PIC. Just make sure the CFI knows all this up front so nobody says the wrong thing before any lawyers. ;)
 
If you're concerned what the insurance company might think, ask them for the situation you envision. As pointed out as far as the FAA is concerned there's no "minimum time". If you have the endorsement (and meet the other general requirement) you can be PIC. If you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which you are rated (regardless of who is the PIC and again the endorsment is NOT a rating), you can log it.
 
Ron Levy said:
I can see someone being concerned that if they logged it as PIC time, and the insurance company became involved, the insurance company might because of that logbook entry suspect they were acting as PIC in violation of the insurance contract.
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I can see that too but I didn't see that question. I saw a question whether insurance requirements for acting as PIC meant one was not authorized to log PIC. And, btw, there's actually an enforcement case I came across some years ago where the FAA itself argued someone was "acting" as PIC because he logged it, so the new question you raise is not limited to insurance questions.

And, just in case, I never thought for a moment that the question was stupid. I was just intrigued by the statement that the rules were understood. The rote answer was given a number of times so I didn't see the need for yet another one ;)
 
midlifeflyer said:
And, btw, there's actually an enforcement case I came across some years ago where the FAA itself argued someone was "acting" as PIC because he logged it, so the new question you raise is not limited to insurance questions.
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Oh yay! Finally, some news that someone is tying responsibility to the logging question. Hopefully the term "sole manipulator" will take on some substance in definition. :D
 
nosehair said:
Oh yay! Finally, some news that someone is tying responsibility to the logging question. Hopefully the term "sole manipulator" will take on some substance in definition. :D
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As I recall, it's an old case. I think I came across it 15-20 years ago and it wasn't new then. A one-of-a-kind anomaly.
 
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Bonchie said:
I knew that the FAA wouldn't care as insurance isn't even their concern and it's why someone coming in and quoting part 61 to me wasn't going to help me understand.

I wasn't sure if the insurance company would come after me in the case of an accident if you are logging PIC in a plane you don't meet the minimums in, even with the CFI. That was my thought process, as silly as you guys may think it is. I knew there wasn't some FAR regulation that forbids it.
Click to expand...

Your question is valid. The insurance company wants you to log time as the sole manipulator of the controls under the supervision of a CFI.
 
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