Another DC airspace violation

<sigh>

When oh when will the TSA/DHS/whatever figure out that small aircraft aren't that big a risk?
 
Bob Noel said:
<sigh>

When oh when will the TSA/DHS/whatever figure out that small aircraft aren't that big a risk?
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They do NOT want to admit small GA planes are not a threat.. That way they can continue to scare the other 311 million people of the US... Job Security ya know....:mad2::mad2:........:(
 
"Direct To" anyone? The route from Westfield Ma to Mt Airy runs through the SFRA area and nicks the FRZ..

Its been over 12 years. You'd think people would know by now.
 
Bob Noel said:
<sigh>

When oh when will the TSA/DHS/whatever figure out that small aircraft aren't that big a risk?
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When will pilots learn to follow the rules?

From the perspective of a bureaucrat, if folks can't follow the rules now, how can we trust them with looser rules?

Pilots are their own worst enemy.

I heard the fighters overhead doing the escort today. Knew right away what it was. Sadly.
 
I'd like them to quit wasting my tax money over-securing everything.
 
I saw a couple Mooney's landing today.. and watched them float, and float, and float.

Then I lost sight of them.
 
Ahhh, another wonderful act in the never ending security theater:

U.S. Capitol Police said the craft entered the airspace at about 1 p.m. local time and the pilot was not communicating with officials on the ground. The emergency order and the evacuation was ordered 36 minutes later.

At 150 kts, the Mooney would have flown 90 nm in 36 minutes. The FRZ has, by my understanding, a radius of 15 nm, the SFRA of 30 nm. If they would be serious about the FRZ and the risks caused by small GA aircraft, they would either have a fighter jet constantly circling over the city or rockets positioned on the ground, shooting everybody down who enters the zone. In the 6 minutes it takes a plane at 150 nm to fly 15 nm, there would be no way to get a crew in the cockpit, launch the jet, intercept the plane, try to establish communication and to shoot it down (over the center of the city, packed with tourists)... :rolleyes:

'Normal' TFRs, which also usually don't have a base like Andrews close by, appear to be even more pointless. :mad2:
 
wsuffa said:
When will pilots learn to follow the rules?

From the perspective of a bureaucrat, if folks can't follow the rules now, how can we trust them with looser rules?

Pilots are their own worst enemy.

I heard the fighters overhead doing the escort today. Knew right away what it was. Sadly.
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<double sigh>

Bureaucrats don't care about whether or not we follow rules. Bureaucrats are our worst enemy, not pilots.

When the rules make sense and are appropriate, then you can whine about pilots not following the rule.
 
Great show of force,love when they scramble the jets. Just goes to show,some pilots will never be aware of the rules or airspace restrictions.
 
I've never understood why the Capitol hill folks go running around outside in response to a threat like that. In just about any hairbrained scenario envisioned: flying into the building, biological agent dispersal, dirty bombs, ... you'd be better sheltering in place. Those buildings are pretty darn substantial and they all have significant subterranean networks left over from the cold war (and they also network the office buildings with the capitol building itself). Back when you used to be able to get away with it, I spent a large part of my teenage life exploring the tunnels under the capitol environment.
 
I didn't become a pilot until well after 9/11 and even after the adiz became the SFRA. Even an old pilot who hasn't seen a chart with the sfra on it should know the airspace is controlled in some manner, right? I mean he must have busted a bunch of Bravo airspace as well, and that would have been there long before the SFRA, or whatever it was called before. Just seems like someone flying out of MA would generally be aware of complex airspace more so than someone from the central US perhaps. I can understand the gut who flips to 1200 after canceling ifr or the guy who tried to run the edge but clipped the SFRA by a mile - but how do you get into the FRZ without knowing?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
Bob Noel said:
<double sigh>

Bureaucrats don't care about whether or not we follow rules. Bureaucrats are our worst enemy, not pilots.

When the rules make sense and are appropriate, then you can whine about pilots not following the rule.
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Whether they are our worst enemy or not, the fact is that most bureaucrats today feel that they are empowered by the Congress to act as parents to petulant children. And as such, they and the security agencies believe that *if* pilots cannot obey the rules that they have currently established then they won't apply appropriate judgment to follow a looser set of rules. The rules are intended to mollify the belief of security agencies that pilots represent a real threat.

I mean, what is simpler than squawking, talking, and avoiding airspace deemed "National Defense Airspace"? It's not like it isn't laid out on charts & most GPS devices.

Whether you - or anyone else - like that or not, it is the way things operate in DC today. Wanna change it? Change Congress and the administration both. There is no politician that wants to be accused by a bureaucrat of preventing a tragedy by loosening rules.

Do I like it? No. But it's really not that hard (and it beats losing the airports inside altogether). There are plenty of rules that seem to not make sense or be appropriate, starting with some of the GA maintenance rules. But we live with those.

According to some local folks, we came pretty close to losing the Leesburg Maneuvering area because pilots cut corners and otherwise violated airspace. Fortunately, we have some aviation interests in the DC area that fight the battle daily & some folks in government that are our friends and understand overkill.

All that said, "need to protect" is often in the eye of the beholder. And just like parents dealing with children, it's hard to make a case for fewer restrictions when we as pilots can't follow the ones we have now.

Look over in Medical Matters part of the forum and see how many people would rather see what they can get away with - it's a constant stream. I can completely understand why Bruce left the forum.

Again, you wanna change things? Fine, start with Congress & those that control the bureaucrats. Flying is a privilege & the rules are simply some of the rules we have to live with.
 
Maybe it was a Sun Myung Mooney.
 
flyingron said:
I've never understood why the Capitol hill folks go running around outside in response to a threat like that. In just about any hairbrained scenario envisioned: flying into the building, biological agent dispersal, dirty bombs, ... you'd be better sheltering in place. Those buildings are pretty darn substantial and they all have significant subterranean networks left over from the cold war (and they also network the office buildings with the capitol building itself). Back when you used to be able to get away with it, I spent a large part of my teenage life exploring the tunnels under the capitol environment.
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Agree.

But I think we both know that the FoD need to be seen as doing "something" in response to a threat. Personally, I'd rethink the procedures, but I ain't them.
 
I remember in the late 70's being cleared to fly up the Anacostia River in my C150, negative transponder, negative encoder.

Headed to College Park, MD.

Got to see all the monuments from the air off my left wing - beautiful.

Something has definitely been lost in the ensuing decades - I find it quite sad, really.
 
Bob Noel said:
<double sigh>

Bureaucrats don't care about whether or not we follow rules. Bureaucrats are our worst enemy, not pilots.

When the rules make sense and are appropriate, then you can whine about pilots not following the rule.
Click to expand...
This. Sad to see all the 'just follow the rules' talk. Not saying bust TFRs, but you folks will lose just as much by following all the rules as by not.
 
ClimbnSink said:
This. Sad to see all the 'just follow the rules' talk. Not saying bust TFRs, but you folks will lose just as much by following all the rules as by not.
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"Hey, Y'all, WATCH THIS!"

We are fortunate that no one has been shot down.
 
wsuffa said:
"Hey, Y'all, WATCH THIS!"

We are fortunate that no one has been shot down.
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Everybody is following all the rules they don't need any new ones - said no gov't ever.
Liberty might be better served if they shot down some rich old white guy in his little airplane.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Everybody is following all the rules they don't need any new ones - said no gov't ever.
Liberty might be better served if they shot down some rich old white guy in his little airplane.
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As a practical matter, though, there would be nearly universal calls to not let that happen again. And the easiest way a populist government will react is to ban rich old white guys - and everyone else - from flying private airplanes. The airlines will celebrate, rich companies and folks will buy an exception for their jets, and the rest of us will be grounded for good.

Big government and it's supporters don't see that they can do anything wrong - it's someone else's fault.

Don't think that AOPA or EAA can bail the industry out of this one...
 
wsuffa said:
"Hey, Y'all, WATCH THIS!"

We are fortunate that no one has been shot down.
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No, the Forces of Darkness (ref: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dcpilots/info) are lucky they haven't shot anyone down. Invariably it turns out that these pilots are NO THREAT. If a grieving wife and children were to appear crying on television; or worse, the whole family in the plane, then there might be enough public outcry to beat some common sense into the politicians and send some GS-12's looking for gainful employment.

Malum prohibitum, not malum in se.
 
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The rules are stupid and ineffectual, yes. But, that still doesn't excuse the idiot pilot. Anyone who still doesn't know about DC's restricted airspace is too stupid to be flying especially when they are based that close to DC. Wouldn't his CFI go over this during flight review ground school? Is it a 10 minute flight review that involves a logbook entry only? Has he had a flight review in the last 14 years?

That said, when the facts come out, if we find out that he knew about it but somehow had an extremely severe case of cranial rectitus that caused the bust, then I might cut him a bit of slack. But until then, there's no sympathy here.
 
timwinters said:
The rules are stupid and ineffectual, yes. But, that still doesn't excuse the idiot pilot. Anyone who still doesn't know about DC's restricted airspace is too stupid to be flying especially when they are based that close to DC. Wouldn't his CFI go over this during flight review ground school? Is it a 10 minute flight review that involves a logbook entry only? Has he had a flight review in the last 14 years?

That said, when the facts come out, if we find out that he knew about it but somehow had an extremely severe case of cranial rectitus that caused the bust, then I might cut him a bit of slack. But until then, there's no sympathy here.
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This.
 
cold_war_reenactors_190.jpg
 
timwinters said:
The rules are stupid and ineffectual, yes. But, that still doesn't excuse the idiot pilot. Anyone who still doesn't know about DC's restricted airspace is too stupid to be flying especially when they are based that close to DC. Wouldn't his CFI go over this during flight review ground school? Is it a 10 minute flight review that involves a logbook entry only? Has he had a flight review in the last 14 years?

That said, when the facts come out, if we find out that he knew about it but somehow had an extremely severe case of cranial rectitus that caused the bust, then I might cut him a bit of slack. But until then, there's no sympathy here.
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I didn't realize that either Massachusetts or North Carolina are considered "that close to DC." I've lived in several parts of NC and always thought of DC as being a long car ride away.

My question is why Capitol Hill was evacuated 36 minutes after the event? Nothing but security theatre to show that something (ineffective) was done in response to the (non) threat.
 
Yeah, the FAA screwed the pooch on this one. Rather than putting the "be careful around DC" as a special focus in everybody's BFR, they made an obscure nusiance reg for only those who arleady know about it to take an online course. More often than not the clown who busts through the FRZ came from a long ways away and was ignorant of both the SFRA/FRZ and the need for the course.
 
ADS-B uplink could have contained special use airspace IDs and status, and GPS could display them. Real time. With alerts.
 
Hank S said:
I didn't realize that either Massachusetts or North Carolina are considered "that close to DC." I've lived in several parts of NC and always thought of DC as being a long car ride away.
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His direct flight path between the two bisects the SFRA. Its been there for 13-14 years or so. Its been on every sectional since then. thats... 24 publication cycles. How does one plan a flight, using all available resources, and not discern that perhaps some extra attention is needed...?

I flew from Houston to Destin to Jacksonville... I guarantee you I read everything I could find on the Valparaiso SFRA and studied the charts..
 
flyingron said:
Yeah, the FAA screwed the pooch on this one. Rather than putting the "be careful around DC" as a special focus in everybody's BFR, they made an obscure nusiance reg for only those who arleady know about it to take an online course. More often than not the clown who busts through the FRZ came from a long ways away and was ignorant of both the SFRA/FRZ and the need for the course.
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I just can't fathom how someone could not be aware -- the article I just read said the pilot was using "old maps." Perhaps flying was just that different decades ago before I was even born, but I can't imagine launching on a Massachusetts to North Carolina flight with a sectional at least a decade old. Who knows what other airspace he violated and which frequencies and even airports have changed.

This isn't a failure of education as I see it - someone this ignorant of the airspace isn't going to change no matter how loudly the faa screams about the sfra.
 
flyingron said:
Yeah, the FAA screwed the pooch on this one. Rather than putting the "be careful around DC" as a special focus in everybody's BFR, they made an obscure nusiance reg for only those who arleady know about it to take an online course. More often than not the clown who busts through the FRZ came from a long ways away and was ignorant of both the SFRA/FRZ and the need for the course.
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While that may be true, it doesn't excuse the pilot who a) doesn't have current charts, and/or b) know how to read a chart. That's pretty basic stuff. Wonder if he even had a current BFR?
 
Mooney, was it? Probably just Neal Boortz trying to **** off some bureaucrats in his post talk radio golden years.
 
Hank S said:
I didn't realize that either Massachusetts or North Carolina are considered "that close to DC." I've lived in several parts of NC and always thought of DC as being a long car ride away.
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But he wasn't riding in a car.

190 NM from one...250 the other. A pretty quick flight in a Mooney from either. Definitely within $100 hamburger distance, even for me in my relatively slow 182.
 
Doggtyred said:
"Direct To" anyone? The route from Westfield Ma to Mt Airy runs through the SFRA area and nicks the FRZ..

Its been over 12 years. You'd think people would know by now.
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It also takes you almost directly over Dulles, squarely through the DC Bravo. Doubt he was cleared into Class B in the first place, otherwise he would have heard about his infraction before fighters popped up on his wingtip.
 
I wonder if the jets were ever able to talk to the pilot or he just followed them. They probably got close enough to give him hand signals.
 
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