Annual Inspections

Tom-D

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Tom-D
How do you owners feel about your A&P-IAs adding items to the required items to do as given in FAR 43-D.

Case in point.
Another A&P-IA saw corrosion near the forward spar carry thru on a (old) 172 so insisted the wings be pulled for further inspection.

So, the P/C starts, the A&P-IA won't sign it off with out see what's in there. The owner won't allow the wings to be pulled.
 
I certainly don't like unnecessary and potentially expensive maintenance, but if an IA is concerned enough to not sign off the annual I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable flying the aircraft.
 
I certainly don't like unnecessary and potentially expensive maintenance, but if an IA is concerned enough to not sign off the annual I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable flying the aircraft.
That's kinda where I am, but there are some pretty good inspection methods.
 
As an owner, I would be asking if there would be other ways of determining airworthiness. If that IA is uncomfortable with that, I would ask that he sign off the annual “with discrepancies” and take It elsewhere for the spar inspection.

I am not advocating flying an unsafe airplane. If there are alternate ways of determining airworthiness I would go down that road before pulling the wings.
 
As an owner, I would be asking if there would be other ways of determining airworthiness. If that IA is uncomfortable with that, I would ask that he sign off the annual “with discrepancies” and take It elsewhere for the spar inspection.

I am not advocating flying an unsafe airplane. If there are alternate ways of determining airworthiness I would go down that road before pulling the wings.
EXACTLY
 
I made the suggestion that they cut 2 half inch hole, that will allow access to the interior of the hat section that forms the carry thru, to use a bore scope to see how ugly it really is, and go from there.
 
Help me further understand something. I brought up the thing about signing off an annual with discrepancies but I am not 100% sure how that works.

If I bring an airplane to you for an annual and you find something that needs to be addressed that you cannot address, or I want to take to another shop to fix, how do you sign it off? You sign the annual off with the discrepancies and I take the airplane to another shop to get fixed. When THAT A&P fixes the discrepancies and signs off the logbooks, I now have a legal airplane, correct? I don’t have to bring it back to you for further inspection. Do I have it right?
 
Help me further understand something. I brought up the thing about signing off an annual with discrepancies but I am not 100% sure how that works.

If I bring an airplane to you for an annual and you find something that needs to be addressed that you cannot address, or I want to take to another shop to fix, how do you sign it off? You sign the annual off with the discrepancies and I take the airplane to another shop to get fixed. When THAT A&P fixes the discrepancies and signs off the logbooks, I now have a legal airplane, correct? I don’t have to bring it back to you for further inspection. Do I have it right?

You have it right.

"Inspection" means exactly that, and if discrepancies are found, they can be repaired and the aircraft returned to service by any qualified A&P.

Of course, a subsequent mechanic might often express great caution, if the owner is looking for a graphite-intensive correction. If you get my drift.
 
How do you owners feel about your A&P-IAs adding items to the required items to do as given in FAR 43-D.

Case in point.
Another A&P-IA saw corrosion near the forward spar carry thru on a (old) 172 so insisted the wings be pulled for further inspection.

So, the P/C starts, the A&P-IA won't sign it off with out see what's in there. The owner won't allow the wings to be pulled.

From a maintainer POV.

If I opened the headliner and found signs of corrosion along the rivet lines and on the base metal of the aft or forward carry through, I would want to know more about it. These aircraft are getting older and need more than a $200 and a six pack annual.

Pulling a wing seems excessive and so does cutting a hole for access (primary structure ). If there are shoulder harnesses installed, there is your access. Boroscopes are a wonderful thing and can fit into small areas.

Without laying eyes on it, no one can say for sure.
 
After a heart to heart discussion with the A&p IA I would probably go with his recommendation.
 
From a maintainer POV.

If I opened the headliner and found signs of corrosion along the rivet lines and on the base metal of the aft or forward carry through, I would want to know more about it. These aircraft are getting older and need more than a $200 and a six pack annual.

Pulling a wing seems excessive and so does cutting a hole for access (primary structure ). If there are shoulder harnesses installed, there is your access. Boroscopes are a wonderful thing and can fit into small areas.

Without laying eyes on it, no one can say for sure.
The top skin of the cabin isn't primary structure. and the shoulder harness goes in the aft spar.
From what you can see from the cabin interior, it is clean.
I inspected this A/C today at request of both parties, with both in attendance we cut 2 half inch holes to allow viewing the interior of the Hat section that forms the spar carry thru.
This A/C has very serious corrosion on the interior of the spar carry thru, the IA was right, it needs to be replaced.

My guess $10-$15k in time and materials.
 
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From a maintainer POV.

If I opened the headliner and found signs of corrosion along the rivet lines and on the base metal of the aft or forward carry through, I would want to know more about it. These aircraft are getting older and need more than a $200 and a six pack annual.

You can not see/inspect the forward spar carry thru with out removing the entire cabin head liner. which is not normally done for an annual inspection.
 
Help me further understand something. I brought up the thing about signing off an annual with discrepancies but I am not 100% sure how that works.

If I bring an airplane to you for an annual and you find something that needs to be addressed that you cannot address, or I want to take to another shop to fix, how do you sign it off? You sign the annual off with the discrepancies and I take the airplane to another shop to get fixed. When THAT A&P fixes the discrepancies and signs off the logbooks, I now have a legal airplane, correct? I don’t have to bring it back to you for further inspection. Do I have it right?
Reading
91.409 Inspections.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft unless, within the preceding 12 calendar months, it has had—

(1) An annual inspection in accordance with part 43 of this chapter and has been approved for return to service by a person authorized by §43.7 of this chapter; or

43.7 Persons authorized to approve aircraft, airframes, aircraft engines, propellers, appliances, or component parts for return to service after maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.
(a) Except as provided in this section and §43.17, no person, other than the Administrator, may approve an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part for return to service after it has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.

(b) The holder of a mechanic certificate or an inspection authorization may approve an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part for return to service as provided in Part 65 of this chapter.

(c) The holder of a repair station certificate may approve an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part for return to service as provided in Part 145 of this chapter.

(d) A manufacturer may approve for return to service any aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part which that manufacturer has worked on under §43.3(j). However, except for minor alterations, the work must have been done in accordance with technical data approved by the Administrator.


When the A&P-IA signs off the inspection as requires in 91.409, they are not required to return it to service, but that completes the annual inspection requirement. (they can) but when it has discrepancies, they are not required to. When these discrepancies are repaired any authorized person can return the aircraft to service.
 
If I bring an airplane to you for an annual and you find something that needs to be addressed that you cannot address, or I want to take to another shop to fix, how do you sign it off?

I normally would not place any entry in the logs, I would tell the owner to get it repaired, then I would re-inspect that area, and complete the annual.

That way I have better control of the maintenance of the aircraft and what I am really allowing to go fly.
I try to protect my customers in as much as I can in what happens to their aircraft. I feel it is easier to control the maintenance now rather a year later when I get to see the aircraft again.
 
“I certify I inspected the aircraft and was unable to determine the airworthiness of the aircraft”. Now I guess you can go where ever you want.
 
“I certify I inspected the aircraft and was unable to determine the airworthiness of the aircraft”. Now I guess you can go where ever you want.
I'm sure that won't end well when the IA's PMI sees it.
 
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