And another logging question (sheesh!)

T Bone said:
Now another question. What to do when the instructor "demonstrates" something, that would make the certificated left seater no longer the "sole manipulator of the controls". So, does one simply reduce the flight time logged PIC for the flight by the approximate duration of the instructor's input, or does one not log the flight as PIC?
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As Ed said, in legal theory, yes, the trainee should not log PIC time when the instructor is flying. However, nobody seems to care, and every instructor I've ever known signs the rated trainee's log with the PIC time equal to the total flight time.
 
EdFred said:
I just made one. Someone (Ron/Ed G./Bruce/Tony) double check my work.
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Not bad, but is that right, that a safety pilot must have an HP endorsement to log PIC time? I didn't think that was true.
 
SkyHog said:
Not bad, but is that right, that a safety pilot must have an HP endorsement to log PIC time? I didn't think that was true.
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Yes it is true, Nick. The only way a safety pilot can log PIC is if he is ACTING as PIC. In that case, he must be legal in every way to ACT as PIC and that includes any endorsements required.
 
Ron Levy said:
Unfortunately, that's not entirely correct. An instructor giving instruction may also log PIC time without being either the sole manipulator or the PIC. Likewise, an ATP commanding a flight requiring an ATP may log PIC time regardless of who's flying or how many pilots are required.

Since not many single-pilot airplanes are used in operations where only one pilot is required, this is pretty much true. However, there are flight operations which by regulation require two pilots even if the aircraft requires only one, mostly under Part 135. In these cases, the PIC may log PIC time when the 135-required co-pilot is flying the aircraft, even if the aircraft itself requires only one pilot.
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You're correct. I did not phrase my post well. I only meant to speak about basic flying, not including CFI's or those operations requiring two pilots. My point is that in most cases not involving two required pilots (including CFI's), the PIC time logged is for being the sole manipulator of the controls and not because you may be acting as PIC. E.G., you're flying your 172 alone. Even though you are the PIC, per 61.51, the time is logged as PIC because you're the sole manipulator.
 
SkyHog said:
Not bad, but is that right, that a safety pilot must have an HP endorsement to log PIC time? I didn't think that was true.
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Of course it is. Look at what the rules says about logging PIC as a safety pilot.

A safety pilot logs PIC under the part of the rule that says someone when log PIC when actings a PIC in a multiple-pilot-required operation (here simulated instrument flight). So, in order to log PIC, a safety pilot has to =act as= PIC. And, in order to =act= as PIC, a pilot must... (you fill it in)

The question points out a minor deficiency in the whole concept of a flow chart - it focuses on a series of answers, some of which don't make sense unless you understand the underlying rules and, if you understand the underlying rules, you don't need the flowchart.

EF, that wasn't a comment on your flow chart, just on the general idea of using a flow chart to answer questions of this sort.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
EF, that wasn't a comment on your flow chart, just on the general idea of using a flow chart to answer questions of this sort.
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I am going to redo it when I find my Visio CD, and put an explanation and citation at each decision as to why you're allowed to or not allowed to log PIC at each junction.
 
EdFred said:
I am going to redo it when I find my Visio CD, and put an explanation and citation at each decision as to why you're allowed to or not allowed to log PIC at each junction.
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Ed,

If you can't find your CD, see if Gliffy will do what you need. It's essentially a web based visio.
 
EdFred said:
I just made one. Someone (Ron/Ed G./Bruce/Tony) double check my work.
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One more related comment. Nothing in your flow chart talks about current medical, current BFR, or current in quarterly landings, etc. My understanding is that none of that is needed to LOG as PIC as long as the "real" PIC is current in everything. Makes it possible for some old pilots who failed their medical to fly, and log PIC - though I think for Safety Pilot they need to pass the medical since they need to be able to see clearly. No need to see clearly, I guess, to just manipulate the controls if the acting as PIC is responsible for that.
 
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Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
One more related comment. Nothing in your flow chart talks about current medical, current BFR, or current in quarterly landings, etc. My understanding is that none of that is needed to LOG as PIC as long as the "real" PIC is current in everything. Makes it possible for some old pilots who failed their medical to fly, and log PIC - though I think for Safety Pilot they need to pass the medical since they need to be able to see clearly. No need to see clearly, I guess, to just manipulate the controls if the acting as PIC is responsible for that.
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DB's understanding is correct, but y'all remember that while there's a lot of stuff you can do that is legal, not all of it is safe. Keep that in mind before you as PIC let someone who can't see clearly or has medical issues serious enough to be unable to pass the medical manipulate the controls. Yes, there are no doubt many who can do it safely, but there may well be others who can't -- choose wisely.
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
One more related comment. Nothing in your flow chart talks about current medical, current BFR, or current in quarterly landings, etc.
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Look again. Right side.
My understanding is that none of that is needed to LOG as PIC as long as the "real" PIC is current in everything. Makes it possible for some old pilots who failed their medical to fly, and log PIC
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First box after "are you rated"
- though I think for Safety Pilot they need to pass the medical since they need to be able to see clearly. No need to see clearly, I guess, to just manipulate the controls if the acting as PIC is responsible for that.
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And that would be one of the provisions of acting as safety pilot as a required crewmember. The flow chart does not answer the why's, it just answers whether you can or you can not log it in your logbook. Your questions are answered in the flow chart.
 
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EdFred said:
Look again. Right side.

First box after "are you rated".
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I see it. I am under the impression the Safety Pilot who is not PIC need only pass the medical - not necessarilly be current with BFR and landings. Your chart is about PIC, not Safety Pilot, so it looks right to me. Thanks. Great chart.

P.S. What is the issue with the doughnuts?
 
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Looks pretty good, Ed.

Yes, I agree that it could me even more informative if it has some explanation as some of the question boxes. That being said, however, once you get all the explanation stuff in, you might be longer than the rules (joking).
 
When acting as a safety pilot, whether you're ACTING AS PIC or SIC, you must have a current medical, since you are a required crew member. You need not be current as far as landings and such, nor have any endorsements, but you must have a current medical.
 
TMetzinger said:
When acting as a safety pilot, whether you're ACTING AS PIC or SIC, you must have a current medical, since you are a required crew member. You need not be current as far as landings and such, nor have any endorsements, but you must have a current medical.
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ACTING AS SIC, you only need medical, ACTING AS PIC, you need currency, endorsements, etc. You ARE the PIC.
 
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