Amount of rental insurance

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pbpilot

Filing Flight Plan
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pbpilot
Does your rental school require you to have rental insurance? My previous place did not. I'm looking at a new school and they require 40k damage and 1 million in liability. I think this is outrageous. This would cost $600+ a year. I've called around to some schools out of my immediate area and they either do not require it or the amounts are much lower.

Thanks for your responses.
 
That's for your protection, not theirs. I have seen in a situation where a student totaled and aircraft and walked away but did not have the insurance the flight school said he should have. Trust me, it's a good idea and completely fair for them to require it to fly their airplanes. If the school has insurance, they will pay, but insurance can and will go after a student or renter in some cases.


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RyanShort1 said:
That's for your protection, not theirs. I have seen in a situation where a student totaled and aircraft and walked away but did not have the insurance the flight school said he should have. Trust me, it's a good idea and completely fair for them to require it to fly their airplanes. If the school has insurance, they will pay, but insurance can and will go after a student or renter in some cases.


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Yes, but 40k is almost unheard of. I carry the standard up to 10k renters insurance, and that's been the standard requirement just about anywhere I've rented.
 
Where I rented... when I was renting they didn't require insurance and told me theirs would cover all but the first... I think it was $1,000 of damage or something pretty low like that.

I got that much worth of renter's insurance just in case, never used it.

Does it really cost $600/year for that? I have owners insurance ground & flight hull coverage of about 60k, and the 1mil liability and that runs me in the mid 800s/year. I would have thought renter's would be a lot less, have you priced it already?

Also, someone is going to say it.... 600/year shouldn't really even merit an eyebrow raise when talking about aviation dollars.
 
600 for renters insurance sure raises eyebrows with me, reason I can afford to fly is because I don't burn money for the sake of burning money.

That's WAAAY too high, normally when I rent I don't pay for insurance, only policy I'll get (and not always) is for my own plane. Does the school want you to pay them this $600 directly?
 
Yeah, that seems high. Then again renters insurance for high hull value aircraft (like a newish SR22) is either unavailable or prohibitive.
 
$90,000 hull here with $1M liability and no IFR. Off field opps insured. Anywhere I think it's safe to land.

$1100/annual
 
600 seems like a lot for renters insurance,usually you cover the deductible on the rental plane. Maybe the flight school isn't carrying enough hill insurance.
 
Where I rent,mtheir insurance will pay all but the detectable, I have 5k/250k and it is 158 annually.
 
I've always been told the fbo's insurance covers the fbo. If you carry renter's insurance that only covers the deductible, you make the fbo whole but you do nothing to prevent the insurance company from subrogating against you for the whole loss. Whether or not they did come after you depends on how much they're out and how much you have that they might take. If you have assets, I'd protect them and have enough insurance to at least cover the hull loss.
 
I think I paid ~450 for renters. Wouldn't fly without it.

My owner's policy is a little over double that. Fortunately my owners policy also commutes to rentals at the same max coverages.

Is that why it's double? heehee
 
Before I bought my plane, I carried $40,000 in renters insurance and $1 million liability. I cost me $480/yr and was well worth the peace of mind. I normally rented planes that were only worth $40K (older 172s).
 
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I pay somewhere around $220/yr for non-owner's insurance for $10K liability / $250K injury/property damage. It's basically enough to cover the deductible for anything I'd rent, and cover some of the injury to myself of passengers. Obviously everyone's risk exposure is different, and the amount of liability or potential injury to others is different. I rarely fly with more than 1-2 others and in relatively low-populated areas, so my exposure to higher payouts of property damage is likely lower than someone in the SoCal or NY-DC airspaces.
 
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Just offer to buy a waiver of subrogation from your FBO for $100.00. See if they take it. Might as well put the money in the hands of the FBO rather than some insurance carrier. Just make sure that you have them sign before a loss occurs, rather than after. Otherwise, they run the risk of voiding their hull coverage. Although that's a them problem, not a you problem.

Of course, this strategy does nothing to protect you for liability to personal injury claims against you, or claims for property damage that your aircraft causes when you plummet to the ground.
 
Thanks everyone for your response. Yes I agree having rental insurance is a good idea but 40K damage and 1 million liability is excessive. I cant find another school in the area that requires that much. And their rental prices are not that cheap. AOPA has the rental agreement right on their website with prices. And it's in line with Avemco as well. $637/yr. And we all wonder why we have less pilots flying?
 
You are missing the point. If you wreck their plane and they come after you do you have a spare 40 k to replace it? If not you might want insurance. I have max liability and 50k hull. The plane I fly is about a 50k plane it cost just under 700 a year. If I have an issue the last thing I want to worry about is the plane.
 
Also be careful when using the insurance on your plane as non owned on another verify you have it and understand the limits are the same as yours and I was also told if you own a two seater you are not covered in a 4.
 
DFH65 said:
Also be careful when using the insurance on your plane as non owned on another verify you have it and understand the limits are the same as yours and I was also told if you own a two seater you are not covered in a 4.
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What? I thought the hull limit for a replacement (ie rental) is equal to your insured plane, period. If you rent a plane you are rated/current for you're covered up to the insured value of your plane.

example... my plane is 2 seats and is worth the same as a many 4 seat planes. The loss doesn't change, and there is no 2 or 4 seat endorsement.

Anyone in the business wanna help me with this? Or should I call AOPA insurance myself?

Thanks!
 
This gives me a chance to make my favorite insurance complaint: What good is $1M liability if it is limited to $250K per person? Every non-owner policy I've seen is that way.
 
JimNtexas said:
This gives me a chance to make my favorite insurance complaint: What good is $1M liability if it is limited to $250K per person? Every non-owner policy I've seen is that way.
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Mine's limited to $100K. When I asked if I could get smooth, they said no. :mad:
 
pbpilot said:
Thanks everyone for your response. Yes I agree having rental insurance is a good idea but 40K damage and 1 million liability is excessive. I cant find another school in the area that requires that much. And their rental prices are not that cheap. AOPA has the rental agreement right on their website with prices. And it's in line with Avemco as well. $637/yr. And we all wonder why we have less pilots flying?
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40K is becoming standard... in places I've flown. Not bad at all considering that the cheapest maintenance bills I've seen for minor repairs. Especially as flight schools replace older aircraft with newer models. That newer 172 probably costs $200,000 to replace.
 
JimNtexas said:
This gives me a chance to make my favorite insurance complaint: What good is $1M liability if it is limited to $250K per person? Every non-owner policy I've seen is that way.
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It's about passengers. If you have four pax, you need that. If you're flying a four place plane, that's what they are looking for.
 
JimNtexas said:
This gives me a chance to make my favorite insurance complaint: What good is $1M liability if it is limited to $250K per person? Every non-owner policy I've seen is that way.
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Are those seat limits, or per person limits? Don't forget the school children on the playground you could fall on/crash into. You can pay for four children and 250k a pop with $1M total.
 
DFH65 said:
You are missing the point. If you wreck their plane and they come after you do you have a spare 40 k to replace it? If not you might want insurance. I have max liability and 50k hull. The plane I fly is about a 50k plane it cost just under 700 a year. If I have an issue the last thing I want to worry about is the plane.
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No points missed here, I completely understand the point of rental insurance and I agree it's a very good idea to have. Just like other insurance we get what we think we will need and what we can afford but when your required to have a certain amount that is higher then any other school it makes things more difficult. Flying was expensive enough and now with this much rental insurance just makes it that more painful.
 
I explain to renters that if they total our airplane or damage it the insurance company will pay us. I explain that the insurance protects us. It does not protect them. I go on to say that I also can't stop the insurance company from suing them for their actions.

I also can't do anything to stop another party from suing them in a liability event personally and my insurance is not going to provide liability protection for them.

I outline all of the potential disasters that could result in a major suit against them.

I then tell them that I don't believe in dictating how they manage their personal financial risk so the decision to get rental's insurance is their own.
 
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rolivi said:
What? I thought the hull limit for a replacement (ie rental) is equal to your insured plane, period. If you rent a plane you are rated/current for you're covered up to the insured value of your plane.

example... my plane is 2 seats and is worth the same as a many 4 seat planes. The loss doesn't change, and there is no 2 or 4 seat endorsement.

Anyone in the business wanna help me with this? Or should I call AOPA insurance myself?

Thanks!
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Just repeating what I was told by the insurance agent. The issue isn't hull it is liability. You can carry more meat bombs in a 4 seater.
 
Some FBOs / Flight Schools do list the renter as a "named insured" in their contract sans the deductible. They then require the renter to have insurance up to the amount of the deductible ($5k for the last such agreement I reviewed).

Only way to know is to ask, but make sure you ask if you are a names insured or otherwise protected from the FBO's insurance company.

Having each renter have insurance to the full value of the hull would be silly. If 50 people a year each rent a $40k airplane and each one of them is paying $600 a year for $40k of hull insurance then there's $30k a year in premiums to insure an asset worth $40k. That makes no sense. It happens I know but its highway robbery.
 
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Most flight schools do not have renters covered under their general liability or business insurance policies. Technically, for your own interest as well as the flight school, you are suppose to maintain your own renters insurance for aircraft you use and do not own. It is possible for an FBO or flight school to have renters insurance covered under their policy, but most do not have that or even know it's an opportunity. If a flight school requires you to have it, and you do not, then the insurance company has every right to subrogate on you for something that is your fault.

Just because you sign something with the flight school negating their right to subrogate on you means nothing. It's not up to the flight school. That has to be contractually bound with the insurance company writing the insurance program for that flight school specifically naming you.


That price for $40k in hull is not to far off from what is competitive in the industry. They are requiring that much in hull non owned because that is probably what the aircraft is worth in full value. Just because you have non- owned insurance for the deductible does not mean they can't subrogate for the full amount when you are responsible for a total loss or damage that cost more than you carry insurance for. The insurance company will be reasonable and most likely won't come after you for the full amount in most situations, but it's always good to be on the safe side when it comes down to protecting your own assets.

With respects to the number of seats question, there typically will be a difference in liability cost for 4 seats compared to 2 because there is potential for a much higher loss if you have 3 passengers with you compared to just 1. In a fatal crash, that is 4 total lives they are responsible for, not just 2.

The limit of $100k or $250k are just a few liability options to chose from. You can pay more for $1mil smooth in liability, but that's up to you if you consider it worth the additional cost for the coverage. The limit reduces the insurance companies exposure and that limit is PER PERSON. So if their is a total loss and causes fatalities or injury, each person could get up to $100k (or what ever that limit is) and the remainder of the million could cover property damage.

I am new to this forum and am a student pilot out of Dallas but have been in the aviation insurance industry now for about a year and a half. I am close to soloing and will be needing to get non owned coverage as well. I work with Falcon Insurance and would be glad to help you with this.
 
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Why would the FBO care about renters' having liability insurance? I would think they would only care about hull. Even then, the FBO is protected, so why should the FBO care at all if renters are insured or not?
 
dans2992 said:
Why would the FBO care about renters' having liability insurance? I would think they would only care about hull. Even then, the FBO is protected, so why should the FBO care at all if renters are insured or not?
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Why do you care if other people have car insurance? If the renter has insurance, they will likely be able to cover the deductible. Otherwise, the FBO gets to eat the deductible (yes they could sue for that later) and the renter is still in hoc with the insurance company. At least if the renter has $5-10K hull, it would cover most FBO-policy deductibles and the FBO is then unharmed aside from loss of use and whatever valuation differences the insurance adjuster comes up with for replacement/repair of the aircraft.
 
I would expect the FBO's rental agreement would specify that if the renter is at fault he/she needs to pony up the deductible. I believe most policies I've seen, the deductible is under $2500 or so - it shouldn't be a problem.
 
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