American Airlines 1006 diversion, post-landing fire, and evacuation at DEN

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Flying Keys

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i have not heard the details, but wonder why, if they declared mayday why the trucks were not following them in all way?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
oops, taking that back:

www.yahoo.com

Photos from the American Airlines fire show passengers made a huge mistake

A slower evacuation because of people taking their bags could lead to more injuries or even fatalities. There are recent examples to prove it.
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com
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Let'sgoflying! said:
not seeing a lot of bags. Are they learning?
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Nope, already cell phone videos coming out now too. I'm trying to figure out have we become such a Narcissistic society that videoing your life and death situation is more important than survival, or just so stupid that the average person has no self preservation instinct. I can guarantee you the last thing I'm doing inside a burning airplane is pulling out my phone to record it.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Nope, already cell phone videos coming out now too. I'm trying to figure out have we become such a Narcissistic society that videoing your life and death situation is more important than survival, or just so stupid that the average person has no self preservation instinct. I can guarantee you the last thing I'm doing inside a burning airplane is pulling out my phone to record it.
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As a photographer, I’m pretty sure I can get my phone open and recording in less than the time it takes the slow person in front of me to get out of the way and it might just provide some investigator some valuable data.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Nope, already cell phone videos coming out now too. I'm trying to figure out have we become such a Narcissistic society that videoing your life and death situation is more important than survival, or just so stupid that the average person has no self preservation instinct. I can guarantee you the last thing I'm doing inside a burning airplane is pulling out my phone to record it.
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People have a remarkable ability to filter certain death out of their minds. Besides, falling back on the habit of pulling out a phone to post your disaster online is probably better for your own health and that of the herd around you than a typical panic reaction would be.
 
I'll do that thing again where I say what's in my head but maybe shouldn't.

The people on the wing with the plane on fire reminds me of an article I read a while ago that went something like this:

viewfromthewing.com

American Airlines CEO: Our Priority Is "Not Spending Any More Than We Have To"

In a presentation to employees following the airline's second quarter earnings call on Thursday, a recording of which was reviewed by View From The Wing, employees were told that American should be performing financially like United and Delta, but CEO Isom emphasized that no airline is better at...
viewfromthewing.com viewfromthewing.com

Probably just a coincidence. Edit: But I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one to say things out loud that maybe shouldn't.
 
My guess, as to why so many passengers were on the wing, is that the pilots didn't know that an evacuation had ben initiated until the over-wing exit doors had been opened. Normal procedure would be to extend the flaps to Flaps 40 prior to ordering the evacuation. With the flaps up, it's a much longer drop to the ground. Once the evacuation has started, you don't know if the area is clear to extend the flaps.

I don't know AA's procedures. For us, the F/As will contact us first if they are going to initiate an evacuation. It's possible that the passengers in the over-wing area initiated this one.
 
RyanShort1 said:
As a photographer, I’m pretty sure I can get my phone open and recording in less than the time it takes the slow person in front of me to get out of the way and it might just provide some investigator some valuable data.
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as the person behind you I have no qualms about pushing you aside as you video. IDGAF about the NTSB or saving the airplane.

once I am outside away from the plane you can tiktok until your eyes bleed.
 
pfarber said:
as the person behind you I have no qualms about pushing you aside as you video. IDGAF about the NTSB or saving the airplane.

once I am outside away from the plane you can tiktok until your eyes bleed.
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Why the aggressive tone? I’m a professional photographer and I’ve successfully evacuated GA aircraft four times. Bet I can get out of the plane as fast or faster than you can, but I’d also bet that the mob ahead will be an obstacle. I’m not grabbing a bag, but if the cell phone is in my hand and the airplane is upright, I'm pretty sure I can multitask successfully.

Honestly, I'm worried you'd run over grandma to save your own skin based on that tone.
 
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RyanShort1 said:
Why the aggressive tone? I’m a professional photographer and I’ve successfully evacuated GA aircraft four times. Bet I can get out of the plane as fast or faster than you can, but I’d also bet that the mob ahead will be an obstacle. I’m not grabbing a bag, but if the cell phone is in my hand and the airplane is upright, I'm pretty sure I can multitask successfully.
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Maybe so but the optics are awful.

Not to mention against crew member instructions.
 
pfarber said:
as the person behind you I have no qualms about pushing you aside as you video. IDGAF about the NTSB or saving the airplane.

once I am outside away from the plane you can tiktok until your eyes bleed.
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I want to see him drive in downtown Chicago today (friendly reminder: it’s St Patty’s Day). Let’s see how he navigates a grid locked green light.
 
If the airplane is on fire, I might initiate an evacuation myself and gtfo. Yes, I will also film riding down the slide.
 
mandm said:
I want to see him drive in downtown Chicago today (friendly reminder: it’s St Patty’s Day). Let’s see how he navigates a grid locked green light.
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if he was being chased by Godzilla, then I would support him running over the moronic idiots that were "filming"... otherwise I really doubt he'd be pushing people out of the way
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Maybe so but the optics are awful.

Not to mention against crew member instructions.
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Generally speaking, I agree about the optics, but at some point you might not care if you feel like you might die and maybe at least someone could learn from it. One of the things I've done before is simply activate the video and stick it in my shirt pocket if I think I might need to use my hands. Unless you're in an exit row seat, chances of a swipe and click video activation taking longer than it takes for the people in front of you to move isn't going to be significant.
 
Larry in TN said:
I don't know AA's procedures. For us, the F/As will contact us first if they are going to initiate an evacuation. It's possible that the passengers in the over-wing area initiated this one.
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Yeah, so we're the one airline where the FAs are allowed to initiate the evacuation if they feel they're in danger, even if they don't get a call from the flight deck. You can imagine how we feel about that, but the door lights are in our scan during situations like this - not only because of the flaps, but because the effing engines might still be running.
 
kayoh190 said:
Yeah, so we're the one airline where the FAs are allowed to initiate the evacuation if they feel they're in danger, even if they don't get a call from the flight deck.
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Ours can too, but they're supposed to contact us first so we can configure the airplane. Some of the fleets have an evacuation alarm that they'd activate. The 737 does not, so they'd call us on the interphone. If they can't make contact, they proceed with the evacuation on their own.

Would be interesting to learn why 2R was used instead of 2L.
 
kayoh190 said:
Yeah, so we're the one airline where the FAs are allowed to initiate the evacuation if they feel they're in danger, even if they don't get a call from the flight deck. You can imagine how we feel about that, but the door lights are in our scan during situations like this - not only because of the flaps, but because the effing engines might still be running.
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There are others where if you don’t tell the FAs not to, they’ll evac if they don’t hear from the cockpit
 
Yeah, our FAs can initiate the evac without even an attempt to contact the flight deck first. They're supposed to if time permits, but we talk about it with our FAs all the time - their attitude is that getting on the interphone to let us know is well down the list of what they GAS about. As one senior momma said to me, "You know when we open the doors - just shut down the engines. By the time you're at the evacuation item on your checklist we'll all be off the airplane."

This is what we're dealing with, and it's also why check airmen in the sim will commonly pop doors as we're pulling the checklist, just to make sure it's in our scan.
 
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To be fair to our FAs - they're not all like that. Most are smart enough to know that we usually have the bigger picture, but it's nonetheless something that's always on the back of our minds.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Why the aggressive tone? I’m a professional photographer and I’ve successfully evacuated GA aircraft four times. Bet I can get out of the plane as fast or faster than you can, but I’d also bet that the mob ahead will be an obstacle. I’m not grabbing a bag, but if the cell phone is in my hand and the airplane is upright, I'm pretty sure I can multitask successfully.

Honestly, I'm worried you'd run over grandma to save your own skin based on that tone.
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CAMI data shows that you have beween 120 and 180 seconds to get everyone off B4 the plasma ball of gas comes theorugh the Fuse tube. I also would be going RIGHT OVER anyone grappling for luggage, as well.
 
Kayo, just guessing here.

Assuming a burning engine. Or equivalent.

Would flaps 4 be a good choice before the plane stopped, or even off the active runway?
 
FAs self-commanding evacs on an airplane I sign for? Oof, no thanks. My hat tip out to y'all consummate professionals threading that needle day in and out; I don't envy that pugilistic cat-wrangling.

In fairness, in my research of FW EMS, there's similar retaliatory dynamics by the med crew against the PIC, so when dealing with humans there's just no way around the ram horn locking.
 
geezer said:
Would flaps 4 be a good choice before the plane stopped, or even off the active runway?
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It's Flaps 40 on the 737.

We don't make up our own procedures as we go. The procedure is to run the evacuation checklist which secures the engines, fights the fire, and configures the airplane for evacuation.

In most cases, an evacuation is not required. An evacuation often produces injuries so you would like to avoid them if unnecessary. Having two dozen passengers standing on a wing isn't a good outcome and could have produced serious injuries if someone fell.

20/20 hindsight isn't helpful at the time that decisions have to be made. The decision to evacuate has consequences whichever way it goes.
 
One thing to consider, at the time of the fire the aircraft was parked at the gate with the jet bridge attached. Both engines would have already been shut down, likely running the APU. I don't know the 737, but can it deploy flaps with both engines shut down?
 
midwestpa24 said:
One thing to consider, at the time of the fire the aircraft was parked at the gate with the jet bridge attached. Both engines would have already been shut down, likely running the APU. I don't know the 737, but can it deploy flaps with both engines shut down?
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Yes. There are electric hydraulic pumps.

But, what was feeding the fire? Fuel? Oil? or Hydraulic fluid?
 
This is an interesting discussion because we’re gonna be seeing A LOT of this.

Transport category maintenance has been getting by with all sorts of things that seem to be catching up to them.
 
kayoh190 said:
Yeah, our FAs can initiate the evac without even an attempt to contact the flight deck first. They're supposed to if time permits, but we talk about it with our FAs all the time - their attitude is that getting on the interphone to let us know is well down the list of what they GAS about. As one senior momma said to me, "You know when we open the doors - just shut down the engines. By the time you're at the evacuation item on your checklist we'll all be off the airplane."

This is what we're dealing with, and it's also why check airmen in the sim will commonly pop doors as we're pulling the checklist, just to make sure it's in our scan.
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Sounds like a good item for an SMS report to me... :dunno:

"Current procedures may result in additional injuries to passengers in an evacuation scenario due to aircraft configuration or running engines, and the lack of crew coordination may necessitate pilots needing to attempt engine shutdowns at a time that distracts from other items on the emergency checklist."

They may risk-matrix it right to the back burner, but they'll have to justify it and think about it for a second at least.
 
Larry in TN said:
Yes. There are electric hydraulic pumps.

But, what was feeding the fire? Fuel? Oil? or Hydraulic fluid?
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That is a good question. The assumption is the inflight engine high vibration indication had something to do with the ultimate fire at the gate. Other questions I have are how long was the aircraft at the gate? What was the crew in the process of doing when the fire started? How was the airplane configured? Was it leaking fuel/oil/hydraulics the entire time? Did start leaking after shutdown? It was obviously chocked in and engines shut down, or else the jet bridge and canopy would not have been in place. In the photos I've seen, the cargo doors were still closed, but since it was a MX return, they may not have been prepared to unload it.

I'm not saying the crew did anything wrong, they were likely following the procedures for the indications they received. From the sounds of things, they did not declare an emergency, just a return to land due to an engine vibration indication. The emergency didn't start until after they parked and the fire started.
 
Returning to land for high vibrations IS an emergency… been there done that.

Maybe they should have declared? Maybe would have been more scrutiny making this a non issue rather than the crisis it was?

If I were in an office without windows and heard they returned but wasn’t any emergency, I’d be unconcerned about getting up there to check it out. Prolly finish my coffee first.
 
Tools said:
Returning to land for high vibrations IS an emergency… been there done that.

"I'm not saying the crew did anything wrong, they were likely following the procedures for the indications they received.
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I don't know what their QRH would lead to but if the QRH was from this Youtube I would be led to not declaring. But if my training actually included the Youtube reference to high FF associated with vib over limit I might be more concerned. We don't know if they had any associated indications that would up their spidy sense.
 
Don’t believe I ever saw it in a qrh or limitations on 72, 73, 75, 76, a330, md-80 or l1011…. But… had it on a a330. We declared, returned. Never any other indications. I ran outside and did a chin up on the tailpipe. Found what looked like coarse sand or gravel. Metal pieces. I’m pretty sure we shed one of the tiny blades. I don’t think that engine was gonna last much longer, glad we didn’t coast out.

Of course never heard a thing from the company.
 
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