Am I cleared through class C with flight following?

[jasc15]

I'm pretty sure this was addressed at some point in my training, but here is my question anyway:

If I am receiving flight following with radar contact (squawk code, etc.), and my route takes me through Class C (or D or B for that matter) am I cleared? Were I not receiving FF, I would have to call the same guys who I am already talking to with FF.

 

[azure]

I'm pretty sure this was addressed at some point in my training, but here is my question anyway:

If I am receiving flight following with radar contact (squawk code, etc.), and my route takes me through Class C (or D or B for that matter) am I cleared? Were I not receiving FF, I would have to call the same guys who I am already talking to with FF.

In Class C or D, all you need to do is establish two-way communications with the ATC facility controlling the airspace. You don't need to hear any "magic words", though there's a chance you may be asked to stay clear of the airspace. In a Class B, it's different, you need an explicit clearance. Even if you're talking to the controlling facility, if you don't hear "cleared into the Bravo", you're not cleared to enter.

 

[Skip Miller]

Liz is correct. If you are on Flight Following, you can proceed through C and D spaces. You cannot enter B spaces without the magic words...

-Skip

 

[jasc15]

In Class C or D, all you need to do is establish two-way communications with the ATC facility controlling the airspace. You don't need to hear any "magic words", though there's a chance you may be asked to stay clear of the airspace. In a Class B, it's different, you need an explicit clearance. Even if you're talking to the controlling facility, if you don't hear "cleared into the Bravo", you're not cleared to enter.

I know about the 2-way contact for C & D, and the explicit "cleared into Bravo", but haven't I already established 2-way comm with the "ATC facility controlling the airspace" with FF? Or does that mean I have to talk to the tower directly?

Edit: Oh, i must have misunderstood Liz's response. Looks like Liz answered this.

 

[roncachamp]

Liz is correct. If you are on Flight Following, you can proceed through C and D spaces.

That's correct, but if you're approaching the Smallville Class C airspace and you're receiving flight following from Metropolis Center, something ain't kosher.

 

[Teller1900]

That's correct, but if you're approaching the Smallville Class C airspace and you're receiving flight following from Metropolis Center, something ain't kosher.

But from a pilot's standpoint, can't we assume that we'll either a) get a handoff to the tower or b) be cleared through by the center? Some places have LOAs that allow the overlying enroute facility to keep a plane as it transits their airspace, don't they?

 

[jasc15]

What's LOA?

 

[HPNPilot1200]

But from a pilot's standpoint, can't we assume that we'll either a) get a handoff to the tower or b) be cleared through by the center? Some places have LOAs that allow the overlying enroute facility to keep a plane as it transits their airspace, don't they?

FAAO 7110.65S requires controllers to either coordinate a pointout or hand you off to the facility governing control of the airspace (either an underlying TRACON or tower) at a reasonable point in time to allow you to establish two way radio communication with the facility.

When you're flying through Chicago this is all moot, because every controller advises you to remain clear of class bravo and class charlie airspace.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

What's LOA?

Letter of Agreement.

 

[jason]

But from a pilot's standpoint, can't we assume that we'll either a) get a handoff to the tower or b) be cleared through by the center? Some places have LOAs that allow the overlying enroute facility to keep a plane as it transits their airspace, don't they?

Honestly, I think that's his point. If you're inside C airspace you should probably be talking to that approach controller. If you're not, you may want to confirm that you weren't supposed to have been handed off.

 

[roncachamp]

What's LOA?

Leona VORTAC

 

[roncachamp]

But from a pilot's standpoint, can't we assume that we'll either a) get a handoff to the tower or b) be cleared through by the center? Some places have LOAs that allow the overlying enroute facility to keep a plane as it transits their airspace, don't they?

If you're approaching the Smallville Class C airspace and you're receiving flight following from Metropolis Center you should assume a handoff has been missed.

 

[Geico266]

If you're approaching the Smallville Class C airspace and you're receiving flight following from Metropolis Center you should assume a handoff has been missed.

Certainly should ask.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you're approaching the Smallville Class C airspace and you're receiving flight following from Metropolis Center you should assume a handoff has been missed.

Do not ever assume anything. You may query the controller with whom you are currently in contact about it, but do not act on the assumption that the handoff was missed and go switching off to another freq or anything like that. Doveryai, no proveryai (trust, but verify).

 

[gprellwitz]

Leona VORTAC

Reminds me of the punchline about a balloonist hovering outside Microsoft tech support who, when he asked "where am I" received the reply "in a balloon." That reply, much like Steve's, was technically accurate and yet totally unhelpful!

LOA refers here to a Letter Of Agreement. It is an unpublished (at least to airmen) letter whereby two facilities can pre-coordinate standards for handoffs and the like.

 

[SkyHog]

The important thing to remember, even in California, despite what SoCalers will try to claim, you NEVER need clearance to transit Class C.

 

[gprellwitz]

The important thing to remember, even in California, despite what SoCalers will try to claim, you NEVER need clearance to transit Class C.

Of course, if they tell you to remain clear, then you need to remain clear.

 

[SkyHog]

Of course, if they tell you to remain clear, then you need to remain clear.

True, and I suppose, once told to remain clear, then you would need a clearance to enter it, right?

Or is it still not a clearance at that point?

 

[roncachamp]

Do not ever assume anything. You may query the controller with whom you are currently in contact about it, but do not act on the assumption that the handoff was missed and go switching off to another freq or anything like that. Doveryai, no proveryai (trust, but verify).

Nonsense. If you're approaching Class C airspace and you were last receiving flight following from an ARTCC then a handoff has been missed, the center controller forgot about you, or you're NORDO. There's no downside to leaving the center frequency and calling approach, you're VFR in Class E airspace, you were never required to be in radio contact with center anyway.

 

[roncachamp]

Reminds me of the punchline about a balloonist hovering outside Microsoft tech support who, when he asked "where am I" received the reply "in a balloon." That reply, much like Steve's, was technically accurate and yet totally unhelpful!

It was humurous, the "Letter of Agreement" answer had already been provided.

 

[poadeleted20]

Nonsense. If you're approaching Class C airspace and you were last receiving flight following from an ARTCC then a handoff has been missed, the center controller forgot about you, or you're NORDO. There's no downside to leaving the center frequency and calling approach, you're VFR in Class E airspace, you were never required to be in radio contact with center anyway.

That's good advice -- for a controller. For pilots, it stinks. Choose wisely.

 

[roncachamp]

That's good advice -- for a controller. For pilots, it stinks. Choose wisely.

If you feel that's true you should be able to demonstrate a downside to leaving the ARTCC frequency and calling the TRACON when VFR in Class E airspace and approaching Class C airspace.

Good luck.

 

[dmccormack]

Nonsense. If you're approaching Class C airspace and you were last receiving flight following from an ARTCC then a handoff has been missed, the center controller forgot about you, or you're NORDO. There's no downside to leaving the center frequency and calling approach, you're VFR in Class E airspace, you were never required to be in radio contact with center anyway.

Why not ping ARTCC first? The freq's already up -- all it takes is a button push and a "Yo, what up?"

 

[poadeleted20]

If you feel that's true you should be able to demonstrate a downside to leaving the ARTCC frequency and calling the TRACON when VFR in Class E airspace and approaching Class C airspace.

First, you may be missing a handoff to the TRACON that the center controller is currently working. Second, you may not know what the freq is for the sector you're in, and the Center controller probably does (since it's adjacent). Third, it's even possible that the TRACON is off the air for some reason and the Center is handling it. Finally, if you just disappear while receiving flight following, the controller has to make sure you didn't crash. So there are four good reasons to call the controller you're with before disappearing, not counting general aviation courtesy.

 

[roncachamp]

First, you may be missing a handoff to the TRACON that the center controller is currently working.

Working a handoff? The approach control airspace probably extends some 30 miles beyond the Class C airspace, he'd look pretty foolish trying to handoff a VFR that far beyond the boundary.

Second, you may not know what the freq is for the sector you're in, and the Center controller probably does (since it's adjacent).

They're on the sectional.

Third, it's even possible that the TRACON is off the air for some reason and the Center is handling it.

Why wasn't it on the ATIS?

Finally, if you just disappear while receiving flight following, the controller has to make sure you didn't crash.

No, the controller has to initiate a search if radar and radio contact are lost in an area where both are expected to be good.

So there are four good reasons to call the controller you're with before disappearing, not counting general aviation courtesy.

The challenge was to demonstrate a downside to leaving the ARTCC frequency and calling the TRACON when VFR in Class E airspace and approaching Class C airspace. You failed.

 

[roncachamp]

Why not ping ARTCC first? The freq's already up -- all it takes is a button push and a "Yo, what up?"

You can try, I see no reason to.

 

[jesse]

I'd try to ring whatever controller I thought was taking care of me. Without a response I would be calling up whomever I thought was responsible for the airspace. I'd get someone and the world would keep on turnin'.

 

[dmccormack]

I'd try to ring whatever controller I thought was taking care of me. Without a response I would be calling up whomever I thought was responsible for the airspace. I'd get someone and the world would keep on turnin'.

Exactly !

(this thread sure seems to be spinning new ways to complicate common sense)

 

[roncachamp]

I'd try to ring whatever controller I thought was taking care of me.

If you're approaching Class C airspace you're well inside approach control airspace. If you're still on a center frequency there ain't any controller taking care of you.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

The important thing to remember, even in California, despite what SoCalers will try to claim, you NEVER need clearance to transit Class C.

Nick, that's really funny! The guy in your avitar claimed to have no class and wouldn't have wanted to be anywhere there was any


Best,

Dave

 

[SkyHog]

Nick, that's really funny! The guy in your avitar claimed to have no class and wouldn't have wanted to be anywhere there was any


Best,

Dave

"Hey everybody.....we're all gonna get laid!"

That's what I think everytime I look at it

 

[jasc15]

Well this certainly opened up several levels of complexity that I didnt expect with my initial question. From the replies so far, would it make sense to simply ping they guy currently giving me FF and say "81869 request clearance through class charlie"? Seems straight forward to me.

Also, from what I've been told by my instructor, I shouldn't change to another frequency while on FF without notifying first, even though FF is not required. So it would be best to get clearance through FF rather than directly from approach?

 

[jesse]

Well this certainly opened up several levels of complexity that I didnt expect with my initial question. From the replies so far, would it make sense to simply ping they guy currently giving me FF and say "81869 request clearance through class charlie"? Seems straight forward to me.

Also, from what I've been told by my instructor, I shouldn't change to another frequency while on FF without notifying first, even though FF is not required. So it would be best to get clearance through FF rather than directly from approach.

I would go with "center, should 81869 remain with you into the charlie?"

There is no clearance into a charlie.

 

[jasc15]

I would go with "center, should 81869 remain with you into the charlie?"

There is no clearance into a charlie.

Well, i guess clearance isn't the right word, but there should be some acknowledgment there.

 

[jesse]

Well, i guess clearance isn't the right word, but there should be some acknowledgment there.

In most cases - if you're on center and you're approaching a charlie - they'll be handing you off to that approach facility. So if they forgot you'll probably get a: "Blah blah, contact podunk approach on 119.8"

Or you might get

"Blah blah, remain with me"

Either way..you're good to go into the charlie.

 

[jesse]

In the end, it isn't rocket science, don't over-complicate it and just ask the controller. The smoothest way to handle it will vary depending on the situation. Eventually you'll learn how to handle it smoothly.

 

[midlifeflyer]

So it would be best to get clearance through FF rather than directly from approach?

The misuse of "clearance" aside, from this sentence I can't tell whether you understand that FF is not an ATC facility. its a service provided by an ATC facility. The ATC facility providing FF services could be Center, Tracon (approach/departure), or even a Tower.

pi**ing contests about what's necessary or not aside, what a lot of folks in this thread have essentially said is that in the area that includes Class C airspace, the facility that provides FF services will generally be approach.

That's correct. In the normal course of events, the ATC facility that has been providing FF services will transfer you along the line as and if necessary. If you start your FF services with a Class D Tower, it should hand you off at the appropriate time to Tracon which should hand you off at the appropriate time to Center, etc.

That makes some sense because which facility is the "proper" one can depend not only on the airspace as shown on your sectional but also on how that airspace is divided up within an ATC facility or between ATC facilities in ways that the pilot can't be expected to know about. Just for example, I've landed at a towered airport while speaking with Approach Control (the "proper" facility at that time and place).

The pi**ing contest comes up when you as the pilot think to yourself, "Hmm, I've been receiving FF from Center, I'm approaching Class C and I haven't been handed off to Approach." Although ATC is supposed to coordinate this stuff for people they are talking to, sometimes they don't.

In case of doubt, I'd go with Jesse's

I would go with "center, should 81869 remain with you into the charlie?"

as the simplest and most sensible approach. As Jesse said, it's not rocket science, just an understanding of the system and some simple courtesy

 

[roncachamp]

In case of doubt, I'd go with Jesse's

I would go with "center, should 81869 remain with you into the charlie?"

as the simplest and most sensible approach. As Jesse said, it's not rocket science, just an understanding of the system and some simple courtesy

The AIM states:

"In the interest of reducing tower frequency congestion, pilots are reminded that it is not necessary to request permission to leave the tower frequency once outside of Class B, Class C, and Class D surface areas."

If some simple courtesy isn't necessary to leave tower frequency in Class E airspace, why should it be extended to leave a center frequency when VFR in Class E airspace?

 

[SkyHog]

I seem to recall Microsoft Flight Simulator using the words "Clearance to transition Class Charlie."

I hope I recall incorrectly.

 

[jason]

I seem to recall Microsoft Flight Simulator using the words "Clearance to transition Class Charlie."

I hope I recall incorrectly.

They also use "with you" nonstop. I wouldn't base my communication methodologies on their teachings.