Always use full flaps on landing..?

dans2992

dans2992

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Dans2992
Ok, I suspect this topic may be a bit "controversial" depending on one's preferred technique.

I fly a Comanche 260B. As far as flap use on landing, I have a few different options.

1. Use full flaps. Fly final approach at low power setting, but definitely a steeper angle than the typical 3 deg VASI on most airports I frequent.

2. Use full flaps. Follow the standard VASI approach angle with a significant amount of power all the way until starting the flare. (Dragging it in)

3. Use about 1/2 flaps and fly the standard 3 deg approach at a lower power setting.

Option 3 feels the best, but it would seem that there are undesirable things about all 3 options.

What does everyone else do?

Dan
 
Your post sounds as though you think the approach and landing should be executed with a single flap setting. Is that true? If so, why?

dans2992 said:
Ok, I suspect this topic may be a bit "controversial" depending on one's preferred technique.

I fly a Comanche 260B. As far as flap use on landing, I have a few different options.

1. Use full flaps. Fly final approach at low power setting, but definitely a steeper angle than the typical 3 deg VASI on most airports I frequent.

2. Use full flaps. Follow the standard VASI approach angle with a significant amount of power all the way until starting the flare. (Dragging it in)

3. Use about 1/2 flaps and fly the standard 3 deg approach at a lower power setting.

Option 3 feels the best, but it would seem that there are undesirable things about all 3 options.

What does everyone else do?

Dan
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Re: option 2. I have only flown the Twinkie, not a single Comanche, but do you REALLY need a significant amount of power to maintain a VASI with full flaps?

As far as your overall question, I typically select full flaps on short final in most cases.
 
dans2992 said:
Ok, I suspect this topic may be a bit "controversial" depending on one's preferred technique.

I fly a Comanche 260B. As far as flap use on landing, I have a few different options.

1. Use full flaps. Fly final approach at low power setting, but definitely a steeper angle than the typical 3 deg VASI on most airports I frequent.

2. Use full flaps. Follow the standard VASI approach angle with a significant amount of power all the way until starting the flare. (Dragging it in)

3. Use about 1/2 flaps and fly the standard 3 deg approach at a lower power setting.

Option 3 feels the best, but it would seem that there are undesirable things about all 3 options.

What does everyone else do?

Dan
Click to expand...

I'd go with option 1. Gives you more options if you lose the engine. I'm almost always above the PAPI or VASI until very short final and I don't see anything wrong with it. Full flaps lets you touch down at a lower speed and use less runway.
 
Changing flap setting on short final seems a bit unwise.

Wouldn't that be considered to "destabilize" the approach? (A bad thing as I was taught)

If there was an asymmetrical flap deployment, short final would not be a fun place to deal with it.

Sounds like what most are doing is full flaps, stay on the VASI, and just use whatever power is required. I don't know the exact power setting, but it does seem like a lot.

Dan
 
I fly the 180 Warrior. I've started to like landing with 2 clicks (30 degrees ?). Minimal power. Sometimes I may use full flaps on short final if Im a little fast but for the most part 2 clicks.
 
I ignore the VASI as long as it's not red/red, and fly full flaps and about 10" of MP to the numbers in my Comanche. I've never landed less than full flaps except once just to see what a 0 flap landing was going to be like.
 
BTW, I've had instructors advocate all 3 methods over the years....
 
Using different flap settings for the landing means different sight pictures, speeds, attitudes, and control feel. The Law of Exercise tells us that pilots who don't fly a lot (say, the typical amateur flying less than 100 hours/year) do best if they do it the same way every time. My experience as an instructor tells me that pilots who use a different flap setting for every landing don't make very good landings. So, I teach using the same set of flap settings around the pattern or through the instrument approach all the time. Typically, this means the first notch on downwind, the second notch on base, and the rest when landing is assured. Likewise, on instrument approaches, about 1/3 flaps when configuring for the approach, and full flaps when landing is assured (usually about the same place you'd be rolling out from base-to-final in the VFR pattern).

Now, there are good arguments for using full flaps every time, but that can vary between aircraft. For example, the Flight Design CTsw becomes a real express elevator down with full flaps -- 30 degrees seems to work better on that plane. You may find your aircraft also does better with something other than full flaps on normal landings, but the key to good landings is using the same setting every time, even if that isn't full flaps.

So, do what you want, but I'll bet you'll do it better if you stick with one approach.
 
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dans2992 said:
BTW, I've had instructors advocate all 3 methods over the years....
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Whether or not to always use full flaps is a much debated topic. I wouldn't base your preferred method on the VASI however. My home base has a PAPI, and my CFI told me that having a two reds and two whites before short final will result in not being able to make the runway should the engine quit.
 
dans2992 said:
Changing flap setting on short final seems a bit unwise.

Wouldn't that be considered to "destabilize" the approach? (A bad thing as I was taught)

If there was an asymmetrical flap deployment, short final would not be a fun place to deal with it.

Sounds like what most are doing is full flaps, stay on the VASI, and just use whatever power is required. I don't know the exact power setting, but it does seem like a lot.

Dan
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Not really. Sometimes it's unwise to put in that last notch if you are on a long final and makes alot more sense to add it on short final. BTW, some people's defintion of an "unstabilized" approach is alot different than reality..
 
I owned a '64 250 for several years and agree with EF re full flaps. I can't think of a good reason other than very severe x-winds and gusts to use anything less on that slick wing that likes to stop flying all-at-once whenever it thinks it's time to do so. I had to do it once in another guy's airplane when we were low on both fuel and options, and hope it was the last time.

As to the de-stabilizing argument, it's bogus for straight-wing airplanes. The King Air B-200 SOP calls for approach flaps until landing assured, then full flaps. There's nothing destabilizing about it, as you are slowing and preparing to flare anyway.
 
20* flaps from long final, 30* flap when the runway's made to lower touchdown speed (less energy), shorten the transition from flying to rolling, and shorten the rollout.

Don't see the point of full flaps on long final then adding power to overcome the added drag. Add the drag when it's time to land.
 
I always use a higher angle - 3.5 -4.0 or so - always have - allows a better sight pic, steeper angle, and more options since you can easily then slip it in if needed against a cross wind with no power by simply starting a little later and maintaining the sight photo . . .

I have a 260C.

That said - I'm not full flaps til I'm final - the thing you can not do without significant experience in the Comanche is play the speed game - you NEED to be on speed on flare or you are going to float forever - regardless of whether you have gusts or not - if you are too fast you float and then it bangs on when the gust goes away . . . it can be done in a Comanche but requires several hundred landings to get it down.

Option 3 and you will float and then bang in a Comanche.

Option 2 is too slow - takes forever to get an airplane on the ground - its most frustrating for me landing at a place like CRQ where they turn you onto the GS 15/18 miles out and clear you for an approach - it requires you to consider perhaps reconfiguring and not slowing for the approach until the FAF and dropping the gear there - but if you are say 120-130 kts you need to pull the nose to slow down to get to gear speed without the gear horn wailing in your ear. That is going to screw up your approach at a critical point if its IFR -

Option 1 permits you to fly the approach normally and when you round out and then flare the airplane you can hit the right speeds and bleed it off quickly in the flare so you don't float.

Start Flaps 10 abeam the numbers - Flaps 1/2 - 2/3 base and the bring them down when you are at idle - the Comanche is challenging to land well and you need to use the same sight pic every single time - you can vary it a little drag it in to a 2000' runway perhaps - but consider that most landings need to eliminate non-standard things.
 
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dans2992 said:
Wouldn't that be considered to "destabilize" the approach? (A bad thing as I was taught)
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I wouldn't classify it as "destabilizing" because after you drop full flaps you still end up in a stabilized aircraft given that you know that the aircraft will pitch up so you apply proper corrections at the proper time.

I haven't flown the Comanche but I think this example should work anyways. Say your doing either a simulated or a real engine out landing on a short runway. You can't drop full flaps right away because you won't be able to glide to the runway due to all the extra drag, but you can't land there with no flaps or with approach flaps because the runway is too short. So you will be forced to drop full flaps on the short final.
This is why I think it's important to be able to change the configuration of your aircraft on the short final.

The way I was tough (and I still think this is a good idea) if your going to drop full flaps do it when you can already glide to the field.


These days I almost never use full flaps for normal landing (the aircraft simply does not need it), but when I land on a short field I still use the same procedure with dropping landing flaps when I know that I will defiantly make it to the field.
 
dans2992 said:
Changing flap setting on short final seems a bit unwise.

Wouldn't that be considered to "destabilize" the approach? (A bad thing as I was taught)
Click to expand...
One of the problems with the idea of a 'stabilized' approach is that over the years the origins of the concept have been lost and many pilots and CFIs have developed some interesting interpretations of what it is.

The stabilized approach was created at the beginning of the jet age. Lot of accidents came from pilots flying jets like the same way they had flown pistons. Problem was that ended up in a lot of aircraft coming up short as the early jet engines had rather slow response times, particularly at low power settings. The solution was to put out full flaps early on, maintain a steady airspeed and carry enough power in the approach that your engines were always ready to respond.

Unfortunately, today we have the reverse....alot of well meaning folks have taken to the belief that you must fly pistons the same way. In general terms, there is no reason to fly a piston like that.

IMO stabilized in a piston is gradual/incremental adjustments that are done without abrupt maneuvering.
 
I fly a 260C. Pretty much exactly the same way as Comanche Pilot.

I like the steep approach, It feels right to me......
 
PilotAlan said:
20* flaps from long final, 30* flap when the runway's made to lower touchdown speed (less energy), shorten the transition from flying to rolling, and shorten the rollout.
Don't see the point of full flaps on long final then adding power to overcome the added drag. Add the drag when it's time to land.
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This is basically what I do for the 172. Every instructor I've ever flown with taught me the same steps to land- abeam the numbers power to 1500 rpm first notch in, 45 degrees to the numbers turn base, speed in the white arc, next notch in, turn final, last notch in, pitch for 60-70 knots on final. I want to land with as little momentum as possible so I'll use the designs of the plane to make that possible.

On a long straight in I like to keep my speed up and the flaps in as long as possible. Having the flaps set at 20 or 30 degrees when I'm still miles from the runway just does not feel comfortable to me. I have to have the RPM setting so high that I can't help but think that if the engine died right now I'd never be able to glide to the runway. That's not a comfortable feeling so that's why I manange the flaps the way I do.
 
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I flew a Comanche 250 for several years and always used full flaps. The people that have a hard time landing a Comanche are coming over the fence much too fast. Fly it with book speeds and it will reward you with nice touchdowns. The Comanche is one of my favorite airplanes. I don't pay attention to the VASI as I normally fly power off steeper approaches in whatever airplane I'm flying. If you get dependent on the VASI to judge your approach what will you do when you fly to an airport that doesn't have one? Don
 
yakdriver said:
If you get dependent on the VASI to judge your approach what will you do when you fly to an airport that doesn't have one?
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Those exist? :eek: :) I'm amazed at how many pilots these days rely on the VASI/PAPI for day VFR ops.
 
Option 4. Flaps up until around 500' AGL (or so), then full. Keep your hand on the flap switch while they reposition, in case you get split flaps. The added drag should ideally bleed off your airspeed from approach speed to threshold crossing speed with no need of a power adjustment.

I didn't fly a single, though, mine was a Twinky. Can't imagine why it would make a difference.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
Option 4. Flaps up until around 500' AGL (or so), then full. Keep your hand on the flap switch while they reposition, in case you get split flaps. The added drag should ideally bleed off your airspeed from approach speed to threshold crossing speed with no need of a power adjustment.

I didn't fly a single, though, mine was a Twinky. Can't imagine why it would make a difference.

dtuuri
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Singles don't slow down that quick. More drag on the twink. (Yes, there's a joke just waiting in that second sentence.)
 
I fly a 172. I usually select full flaps on short final after I've made my decision to land. Otherwise, it takes forever to get down.
 
I land with all different configs, depending on the situation. It's called practice for when stuff breaks....

Disclaimer: Full flap landings in my plane are dicey........ at best...:yikes:
 
Full flaps every landing. Even in a crosswind.
 
Full flaps every time in the Lear 60 (unless emergency/abnormal landing).

No flaps on my Citabria.

:D
 
Every so often I will do a no flaps landing for the practice, otherwise abeam the numbers first notch, at base second notch, and rarely use full flaps. I fly a 182 and it seems to float nearly forever with full flaps, so I do not use them that often. In winds stronger than 8 knots I typically land with one notch. It seems to work for me well, and I am touching down just after the stall warning chirps.

It seems to me that the majority always prefers full flaps whenever I read threads on this issue, maybe I will try again and see if it is any different now for me since the last time I tried full flaps was while I was still checking out the plane.

Doug
 
douglas393 said:
Every so often I will do a no flaps landing for the practice, otherwise abeam the numbers first notch, at base second notch, and rarely use full flaps. I fly a 182 and it seems to float nearly forever with full flaps, so I do not use them that often. In winds stronger than 8 knots I typically land with one notch. It seems to work for me well, and I am touching down just after the stall warning chirps.

It seems to me that the majority always prefers full flaps whenever I read threads on this issue, maybe I will try again and see if it is any different now for me since the last time I tried full flaps was while I was still checking out the plane.

Doug
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Try slowing down. Float = excessive speed.
 
in the 182 towplane i tend to use one notch less than full as with full i find it impossible to not touch down flat.
 
douglas393 said:
I fly a 182 and it seems to float nearly forever with full flaps, so I do not use them that often.
Click to expand...

Full flaps allow for LESS floating due to the added drag. But as others mention, your airspeed has to be right.
 
douglas393 said:
Every so often I will do a no flaps landing for the practice, otherwise abeam the numbers first notch, at base second notch, and rarely use full flaps. I fly a 182 and it seems to float nearly forever with full flaps, so I do not use them that often. In winds stronger than 8 knots I typically land with one notch. It seems to work for me well, and I am touching down just after the stall warning chirps.

It seems to me that the majority always prefers full flaps whenever I read threads on this issue, maybe I will try again and see if it is any different now for me since the last time I tried full flaps was while I was still checking out the plane.

Doug
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Try crossing the fence no faster than 65 Knots and work down from there. Lighter weights I might expect to cross the fence at 60.
 
I do cross the fence at 65 knots. It could be my imagination that I float longer, as like I said I did that while I was getting my hours in the plane for high performance and was not real familiar with its flying character at the time. Now that I have many more hours in it I should probably try it again and see if it differs.
 
douglas393 said:
I do cross the fence at 65 knots. It could be my imagination that I float longer, as like I said I did that while I was getting my hours in the plane for high performance and was not real familiar with its flying character at the time. Now that I have many more hours in it I should probably try it again and see if it differs.
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Do you have 40 degree flaps?
 
Depends on the type of airplane.

The pilot should be proficient in every landing configuration allowed by the manual (e.g., Cessna 172: "Normal landing approaches can be made with power on or power off with any flap setting within the flap airspeed limits").

All else being equal I prefer full flap landings in my C-172/180. In fact, I've sacrificed 250 pounds of useful load (I have no friends anyway) to be able to keep the 40 degree setting. But, there are times when things just seem to flow better with partial flap (no significant difference in stall speed between 20° and 40°).

One should also know what to expect in case the flap motor takes the rest of the day off (which happened to me twice in the first three months of owning my Bonanza).

Know thy airplane.
 
What does your book show as VSO at the weights at which you are typically flying? (If you don't have it handy, the formula is that stall speed drops by ~ half of weight reduction %, so 10% reduction in weight causes 5% reduction in VSO.)

douglas393 said:
I do cross the fence at 65 knots. It could be my imagination that I float longer, as like I said I did that while I was getting my hours in the plane for high performance and was not real familiar with its flying character at the time. Now that I have many more hours in it I should probably try it again and see if it differs.
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Pilawt said:
Depends on the type of airplane.
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:yeahthat:

And if the airplane calls for flaps "as required", or some phraseology like that, you can use whatever you think is required for that landing.
 
dtuuri said:
Option 4. Flaps up until around 500' AGL (or so), then full. Keep your hand on the flap switch while they reposition, in case you get split flaps. The added drag should ideally bleed off your airspeed from approach speed to threshold crossing speed with no need of a power adjustment.

I didn't fly a single, though, mine was a Twinky. Can't imagine why it would make a difference.

dtuuri
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What should I expect with split flaps? I'm guessing a rolling moment toward the wing with the dead flap. I fly a Skyhawk.
 
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