Always consider consequences of behavior

Discussion in 'Medical Topics' started by bbchien, Nov 16, 2017.

  1. bbchien

    bbchien Touchdown! Greaser!

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    So I could not tell if I was getting trolled or it was for real:

    I recently received an inquiry from "a F.O." who was grounded for cocaine in his urine. The story was he went to a party and he knew it was being used, but he says he did not partake. At first I was sympathetic and was going to describe the what all and where alls of what was going to happen next (all bad) - but I asked if it was a DOT or an airline random. He did not know. I told him to get a lawyer and that I wasn't going to help him (RARE for me to do that).

    Then it occurred to me, What the heck was he doing as a person in the public trust, even going to such a party? So the situation is, are you "too stupid to be a F.O" or are you an abuser?

    I am finding it tougher and tougher to believe "what's out there".....
     
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  2. jesse

    jesse Administrator Management Council Member

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    Doubt it was his first time. Google says it's only detectable for 2-4 days. The guy was playing a game with timing and the tests and he lost. Time for a new career.

    I've never even seen the **** in my life - yet alone get accidentally exposed to it. I cannot even think of any means that someone would be accidentally exposed. Maybe if they tied him down in front of a box fan then proceeded to dump mass quantities in the fan to be distributed into the air and all over himself.
     
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  3. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Well he's probably young Doc, and attends parties. Certainly not to use drugs I hope, but my airline had a few that were let go for drugs and alcohol problems. Sadly there's more flying that haven't been caught yet. Same as when I was a controller, some of them did drugs. One place I was stationed around 8-10 got busted for pot, kicked out of ATC and eventually the Air Force as well. I heard a few of them got on with the FAA as controllers, which blows my mind.

    Back to the FO, is it possible someone slip cocaine into his drink or something like that? I know nothing of how it's consumed so just wondering if the FO had no knowledge of it.

     
  4. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    It’s sad when individuals value their addictions and ill-fated habits more than their careers. No sympathy from me.
     
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  5. jesse

    jesse Administrator Management Council Member

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    Maybe..but most cocaine users don't want to waste their cocaine...They are worried about running out the entire time...sharing to someone that doesn't want it by slipping it into their drink doesn't really fit.
     
  6. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

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    I've come across it a few times.
    Once working as a busboy, "crazy Nate" (not our beloved Nate) comes into a restroom and for whatever reason opens a bubblegum wrapper and shows me his white powder.

    Once in the back of a car on the way to a party and "Big Gay Ron" became "Big Cokehead Ron". Nicknames were easy back then (mine was retard)
    Ron (who remained gay after this particular incident), just whips out this little jar (and I mean little jar) and dumps it on his finger and snorts it up.

    Once in high school, a couple kids were rumored to have sprinkled some on a "Unsuspecting Bobby's" joint by the water tower after school.
    Not sure if that does anything but that kid (if the rumor was true) would have unknowingly ingested coke however he was smoking weed at the time so maybe that's the gateway part
     
  7. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

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    Another from the "Ravioli's True Stories" file:

    My eldest brother is a career Naval officer (retired). Among other interesting duties he routinely attended Captain's Mast. This was his account of one:

    A female sailor had tested positive for Cocaine. Her defense was that she does not use Cocaine, but her husband does. She further explained that she frequently satisfies him orally and that the substance was potentially ingested via that fluid transfer. [edited for politeness]
     
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  8. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

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    I bet Big Gay Ron used that story too.
     
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  9. brian]

    brian] Cleared for Takeoff

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    Here is what I tell our IT interns: You want a career playing with peoples MONEY?! Be careful with the booze and don't touch anything "stronger" - EVEN IN COLORADO AND WASHINGTON!

    And I'm only talking about MONEY - nothing here about literally having hundreds of peoples LIVES in their hands...
     
  10. FlyingElvii

    FlyingElvii Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Widespread drug use is an unfortunate truth of the society we have ALL had a part in creating. Usage is now glorified in songs and popular culture.

    People are told there are consequences for doing it, and yet, they do it anyway without regard for what may happen. I have NO sympathy for drug users.
     
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  11. mkosmo

    mkosmo Pattern Altitude

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    Maybe somebody just watched Flight again and thought he'd ask around. Or some crackpot "investigative" reporter trying to get in to the dirty lives of pilots.
     
  12. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That's a good one! No doubt they all looked at each other and had a WTF moment. And then laughed...

     
  13. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route

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    But that's how addiction works. That's why it's "addiction" and not "preference".
     
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  14. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    But it's still not an absolute. Addictions can be over come. I don't have sympathy either for those who don't seek treatment to overcome their addictions. Especially when that addiction is detrimental in a safety related job.
     
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  15. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route

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    They certainly can be with a great deal of hard work. Usually some very bad consequences are what finally motivate somebody to try the hard work. But an addict is, almost by definition, incapable of assessing consequences of the addiction nor their own level of dependence.
     
  16. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    He admitted to going to party where it was located so he can't even say that the urine samples were mixed up...
     
  17. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

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    Like others posted above I have a hard time with addiction sympathy. A lot of people treat addiction as some kind of unavoidable disease you just get by being unlucky, like cancer, and I think that takes a lot of the personal responsibility off of the addict. However, unless you are legitimately born an addict if the mother was a user these are choices that people make and willingly put themselves in

    If you willingly jump into the deep end of a pool knowing you can't swim, just because you like the thrill of almost drowning, then that to me is a valid analogy with little room for sympathy

    Sorry if I sound like a ****ole, but people need to be accountable for their actions and like the OP noted, vigilant of the choices they make in their life and how it affects the big picture
     
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  18. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

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    In the truck driving world there are lawsuits where the drivers were fired for failing drug test. The lawsuit is about someone bringing brownies into a company break room. Allegedly the brownies were laced with some drug that is allegedly legal in that rocky mountain state. Allegedly the person that brought them in got them from a friend.

    Note to self: Some people have ruined brownies for the rest of us.
     
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  19. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member

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    I can see how eating an edible by mistake would be easier than snorting or inhaling by mistake.

    As far as addiction is concerned, I think the point is that some people are more predisposed to getting addicted to certain substances than others. It isn't that they *can't* quit, just that it's a lot harder for them, which makes it hard for people without this predisposition (me, for instance) to feel empathy. This goes for being addicted to other things too, such as eating and exercise.
     
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  20. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform Pattern Altitude

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    Ah, now this explains why @eman1200 doesn't want any free cigars from a total internet stranger and why @mscard88 pretends he doesn't smoke. I totally get it guys. My feelings are healed...(weenies).

    Seriously though, the brownie thing has me paranoid now. Ever been to a convenient store that has a few local mom & pop businesses that set individually and amateur Saran wrapped cookies on the counter for sale like "Aunt Macy's Home Bakery" (with a logo sticker printed on an inkjet)? I never bought em for sanitary reasons, but never thought of shenanigans. I won't eat from a tray full of brownies at an office ever again!
     
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  21. rk911

    rk911 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    ok but it was a preference, a conscious decision to try it before it morphed into an addiction. there can't possibly be a person in this country that is not aware that cocaine is illegal as well as what it will lead to prior to making the conscious decision to try it. no sympathy for the F.O. or any other drug user, peddler or supplier. my county has started prosecuting persons who supply fatal doses of narcotics to others.
     
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  22. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

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    I get very paranoid with other people's cooking in general... I've never been afraid of it being laced with drugs (since I generally find that people don't like to give their drugs out for free) but when people bring baked goods to the office, or any kind of "home made creation" I shy away from it. Who knows how it was prepared, how clean they are, etc. etc. Maybe I'm in the minority
     
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  23. murphey

    murphey Final Approach

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    I teach the Young Eagle ground school (one of the few chapters that has a ground school) and the CAP ground school on occasion - we have a slide that makes it absolutely clear - you want to fly? We make it explicitly clear - may live in Colorado, but we live under Federal law - No drugs, no alcohol. Get busted? Forget about flying, go major in Art History.
     
  24. murphey

    murphey Final Approach

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    I'm a brownie addict, and make homemade brownies for the A&P - the only strange substance is walnuts, by request. I prefer pecans. Childhood allergies and asthma make it impossible for me to go to most concerts these days, 'specially Red Rocks. I get downwind of any type of smoke, I'm outta there - afraid of an asthma attack. With so many allergies (including prescribed drugs and foods) I'm paranoid just to avoid an allergy reaction.

    gadzooks, I'm boring.
     
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  25. steingar

    steingar Touchdown! Greaser!

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    No sympathy for the FO. He didn't get cocaine in his urine ingesting by accident. Everyone has a story. Time for that guy to find a new line of work.

    I do feel some sympathy for folks addicted to this stuff. Our society treats them like criminals. Whether right or wrong, such treatment isn't deterring anyone from drug use, the problem shave gotten worse, not better. Personally, i think we'd be a lot better off treating the addicted like folks with mental problems. Treatment instead of incarceration. Might not seem fair on the face of it, but I bet we'd get farther than interdiction and incarceration.
     
  26. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    You mean, kinda like how we try to punish people out of poverty?
     
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  27. Tantalum

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    Yes, solving addiction and the "opioid epidemic" is a messy one to untangle.

    On the one extreme you imprison these people with draconian sentences... that makes problems worse I believe as there is no real recovery or treatment and these people's lives are typically worse when they get out, so they're even more conducive to go back to drugs. And prison isn't free either; it satisfies our gut instinct of "putting away bad people" but prison's are expensive

    On the other hand is the kumbaya millennial "safe injection sites" were this behavior is entirely destigmatized and all sense of personal responsibility is removed.. maybe diseases like AIDS and others transmittables is curtailed and you remove some crime, which is great, and maybe a step in a right direction, but you don't actually solve the core of the problem.. which is how do you keep people from doing drugs in the first place

    ...THAT is a loaded question but I think it comes down to starting with good parenting and a solid home life and "support" system.. so that when **** goes south in your life drugs are not the first resort

    The other problem with fixing this though is no one wants to pay for it. Addicts generally aren't able to pay for treatment and typically don't have a good support system to help them, so they really are on their own to recover. Not sure if any of you guys watch Shameless on Showtime but one of the characters (actually a few of them) have pretty storied lives dealing with addiction. Yes I know it's just a show, but it gets the addiction components right.. crappy situation to be in
     
  28. steingar

    steingar Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Way cheaper to treat an addict than incarcerate them. And I'm a big huge fan of free needle programs. Again, not fair on the face of it. But AIDS affects everyone, and some one who gets AIDS is never again gong to be a solid upstanding contributing citizen.
     
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  29. Tantalum

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    @steingar I'm with you there, incarceration isn't the right option, and with the safe injection sites that's why I mentioned that if people are going to do it, at least make the environment as safe as possible for them. It's a step in the right direction but I don't think it solves the core of the problem

    that's going to vary by state.. and depends how we define "punish" - at least where I've lived the local communities do a lot with food drives, soup kitchen volunteers, crises centers and houses, etc. There's definitely a stigma associated with being poor, but at least in my experience the community in general tries to help, I've even seen neighbor's take each other grocery shopping, etc.

    from a financial punishment, generally the less money you make the worse off your tax situation is going to be. Even if your actual income tax rate may go down as you make less and available deductions go up (like student loan, mortgage, etc.) your going to be paying a higher share of your money in general to taxes, vs living expenses. The tax on a food, gas, clothes, etc., will hit a poor person much harder than a rich person https://itep.org/whopays/ (that has some great graphs on various states and who pays what)

    ^^but that's always been an incentive for me to push myself.. what gets me is the automatic resignation "why should I try hard, the system is rigged against me anyway. Rich people suck"
     
  30. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

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    I get ya. I am a total germaphobe. Flying and living in Alaska did that to me. I stay away from everything home made unless I know the person well. And yes, stores that sell "home made" stuff that is hand wrapped, I stay away.
     
  31. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Damn he's onto us @eman1200 ! :eek:
     
  32. Lachlan

    Lachlan Pattern Altitude

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    What the? What? HuH? You should...

    maybe if...

    I got nothin’... holy smokes. I think someone just went full on.
     
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  33. Stan Cooper

    Stan Cooper Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Whoa! That statement is simply uninformed and untrue. I have been infected with HIV since early 1980 (before anyone had ever heard of HIV or AIDS), probably as a result of a 1979 blood transfusion after an automobile accident but possibly as a result of unprotected sex. My seroconversion was 37 years ago. I know I am fortunate, but certainly not an exception; today there are many HIV positive ATPs flying for major carriers.

    For many years, my viral load has been undetectable and my CD4+ cell count normal thanks to some great doctors and aggressive HAART (highly active anti-retroviral therapy). I retired in 2003 from Visa International (the credit card association, now Visa Inc.) as vice president of global strategy and planning. I received a special issuance third class medical certificate after a thorough review of my medical records by CAMI and taking the CogScreen-AE cognitive deficit test, but let it lapse in 2006 because of the recurring hassle and expense of keeping the SI medical, and began flying LSAs using my valid driver's license in lieu of a medical. In May, I began flying with BasicMed so I could fly bigger airplanes.

    In 53 years and 3,000 hours as PIC, I have never been involved in any accident, incident, or deviation. ...and I have never used drugs.
     
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  34. brian]

    brian] Cleared for Takeoff

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    Thank you for posting this. In a world led by media printing one liners and zingers, it is refreshing to hear the rest of the story- especially a positive one like this.
     
  35. steingar

    steingar Touchdown! Greaser!

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    First, I am so very sorry about your inadvertent contraction of the HIV virus, and am overjoyed to hear that antivirus therapies are sufficient to allow you to fly. That is good news indeed.

    And you are a very different person than one who has succumbed to the lure of injectable narcotics, who likely doesn't have the financial wherewithal to pay for antiretroviral therapies or the lifestyle to be able to competently undergo treatment. Such a person can function as a pathogen reservoir, infecting others through shared needles, blood, and sexual practices. Something makes me suspicious that those addicted to opiates are less than scrupulous about the latter. As such, they affect us all.
     
  36. Lachlan

    Lachlan Pattern Altitude

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    Yo, Steiny- you’re a Baby Boomer, right? From the Hepatits C Generation, right? The same Hep C that has killed lots and lots of people who functioned as pathogen reservoirs, and transmitted it to others through those same vectors you mentioned above, right? Yeah, I’ve seen the commercials on tv about your generation and the need to get cleaned up from its viral load. Let’s just skip the fact that Hep C is linked to MORE deaths than HIV. Let’s stick to ignorance here and leave the facts out of it, ok?
     
  37. steingar

    steingar Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If one considers things in a historical context, then yes, Hepatitis C has killed more humans than any other virus. But I am fairly certain that the HIV virus overtook it a few years ago as the largest annual killer. I am not a Baby Boomer, and am not from that generation. I do not have Hep C and hope to never acquire it. Thankfully, if I do there are now treatment regimens to keep me from succumbing to it.
     
  38. Lachlan

    Lachlan Pattern Altitude

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    I like modern history, like this, for example: {From CDC.gov May, 2016} "Deaths associated with hepatitis C reached an all-time high of 19,659 in 2014, according to new surveillance data released today by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

    A second CDC study, published online today in Clinical Infectious Diseases, shows that annual hepatitis C-related mortality in 2013 surpassed the total combined number of deaths from 60 other infectious diseases reported to CDC, including HIV, pneumococcal disease, and tuberculosis. Further, both studies use data from death certificates, which often underreport hepatitis C, so there likely were even more hepatitis C-related deaths than these numbers suggest."

    https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2016/p0504-hepc-mortality.html

    [The quote above was bolded, underlined and italicized by me.]
     
  39. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    And with computers, data bases, and the internet, EVERYTHING goes on your permanent record...
     
  40. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I suspect it is best to hold people responsible _and_ have sympathy for the difficulties the addict faces.
     
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