Always check your fuel! Sumped water for the first time.

Won't someone puleeze think of the spotted liver lizards in the north east corner of Antarctica and how dumping sumped fuel on the ground takes the spots of their liver..????
 
somorris said:
I agree that small amount of fuel would likely not adversely affect the environment, but if the airport has rules about not dumping the sample, then the sample should not be dumped. Another thing to pay careful attention to is the color of the sample. I have sumped an airplane in the past and saw no bubbles or differentiation, but the color was wrong. The sample was all water -- no fuel. I noticed it because it was too clear, not the light blue color I was used to seeing for AvGas. Be careful out there.
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My instructor taught me to always sniff the tester, I had been doing this for a while before I realize why--that it might all be water.

I found water in a tank a while ago after a really strong storm, replaced the cap gasket and that fixed it.
 
So....how did you know to stop straining?....might there be more where that came from? :eek:
noahf said:
After around 100 flights, always sumping to check the fuel and never finding anything, yesterday was the day. The left wing: nothing. The right wing: water at three sump points.

See photos attached. At first it almost looked like air bubbles, but it quickly became clear (no pun intended) that there was water at several sumps.

Using the GATS jar for the first time with water, I carefully poured the fuel back into the tank. And... it seemed that some of the water made it through the (new/undamaged in appearance) filter. Lesson learned from talking with someone from the flight club later -- when water is mixed in, dump it. Although I always do the eco friendly thing, given how rare this is it sounds like good policy to dump when water is mixed-in. Any feedback?

PS. Didn't fly after pouring the fuel back in, to let the water settle + be sump-able later.
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Bonchie said:
Why would a club have rules about dumping bad fuel? Just seems overly intrusive.

I'm dumping that crap if it's me.
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Because it's illegal to dump it on the ramp. Lead and all that.

Most places do have legal dumping stations, though.
 
Ravioli said:
What's worse? throwing sumped fuel on the pavement or burning it in the engine and pushing it out as exhaust into the air?

Oh the humanity.
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Once it gets in the groundwater, it ain't coming out.

People have studied this problem with more than an Internet gut guess.

Just dump it in a dump station. It's not that hard. Kinda like not throwing garbage on the ground.
 
Ravioli said:
What's worse? throwing sumped fuel on the pavement or burning it in the engine and pushing it out as exhaust into the air?

Oh the humanity.
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On the pavement. FL has a law about it too, you get caught, you could be fined up to 50K.

Florida law prohibits dumping "sumped" aviation fuel on the ground (soil, pavement, or waterway). Violators are subject to a fine of up to $50,000. See Section 403.727, Florida Statutes for details.
 
hankrausch said:
My instructor taught me to always sniff the tester, I had been doing this for a while before I realize why--that it might all be water.

I found water in a tank a while ago after a really strong storm, replaced the cap gasket and that fixed it.
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Sniff test is good, if you get a kerosene smell, bad. My instructor taught me to pour some on my fingers, 100ll dries to a powdery white, and is not greasy. If it stays wet, or feels greasy, you may have jet A in your 100ll.
 
MAKG1 said:
Once it gets in the groundwater, it ain't coming out.
People have studied this problem with more than an Internet gut guess.
Just dump it in a dump station. It's not that hard. Kinda like not throwing garbage on the ground.
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Caramon13 said:
On the pavement. FL has a law about it too, you get caught, you could be fined up to 50K.
Florida law prohibits dumping "sumped" aviation fuel on the ground (soil, pavement, or waterway). Violators are subject to a fine of up to $50,000. See Section 403.727, Florida Statutes for details.
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Sometimes the word stupid is the only one that fits. Because EVERYONE knows we pay over $4/gal to get some lead to pour in the ground water.

Eco-pilots of the world... whatever.
 
Unit74 said:
In FL, I was slumping after a fill up. Line boy came out and watched me. I went in to pee for the last time and asked what was up. He said fuel dumpers get reported to DOT! I was like WTF! Big fines he said.
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Discussing what to do with contaminated fuel is something that I think instructors should do a better job of, due to situations like you experienced. I've always been very careful down in FL, because I have no interest in getting a large fine.

As an interesting side note, I've always found the most water/contamination in the fuel down in the SE US. Right where Florida is, and the concern for fines. LOL. Last time I was there, I filled the fuel sump jar with water 2.5 times for each tank before getting to clear fuel.

Ryanb said:
So what do they propose you do with it, bearing that it's contaminated? Seems weird that they would get the DOT involved, it's more of an environmental thing.
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The places I've been in FL have had a container to dump the contaminated fuel in. If you don't see one, I'd ask someone where to put it rather than just dumping it on the ground.
 
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Harold Rutila said:
Seriously...

Can someone explain to me how this is the instructor's fault? Instructors talk about contaminated fuel with the understanding that the student knows what "contamination" means. (Dictionary.com: "Something that contaminates a place or substance, as by making it impure, unsuitable, harmful, or unusable.") I would expect that upon finding contamination in the fuel, a student would not dump said contamination back into the tank.

"But Florida law!"

The law doesn't say "Because it is unacceptable to dump fuel on ground, go ahead and put contaminated fuel back into your gas tank." I don't think we need the Florida state legislature to rewrite the law so as to make the dumping of contaminated fuel back into a fuel tank against the law for "safety." Or do we?

How many regs got violated by pouring water into an airplane gas tank that presumably has a "100LL ONLY" placard? All because of a law that restricts people from dumping fuel on the ground? And it's the instructor's fault?
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I wouldn't say its the instructor's fault because well, someone ought to know better than to either dump lead on the ground or put a contaminated sump back into the tank. I've seen people do it all the time at my home field. Heck I even had an instructor sump a full container of fuel, look at it and dump it out. In that case, law of primacy takes over for someone who's just learning.

But then again, we have to put things like "careful, hot coffee" on coffee mugs and signs like "don't forgot to check the car for your kids" because idiots keep locking them in during summer.
 
Accidentally deleted. Here's what I said:

Seriously...

Can someone explain to me how this is the instructor's fault? Instructors talk about contaminated fuel with the understanding that the student knows what "contamination" means. (Dictionary.com: "Something that contaminates a place or substance, as by making it impure, unsuitable, harmful, or unusable.") I would expect that upon finding contamination in the fuel, a student would not dump said contamination back into the tank.

"But Florida law!"

The law doesn't say "Because it is unacceptable to dump fuel on ground, go ahead and put contaminated fuel back into your gas tank." I don't think we need the Florida state legislature to rewrite the law so as to make the dumping of contaminated fuel back into a fuel tank against the law for "safety." Or do we?

How many regs got violated by pouring water into an airplane gas tank that presumably has a "100LL ONLY" placard? All because of a law that restricts people from dumping fuel on the ground? And it's the instructor's fault?
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Caramon13 said:
But then again, we have to put things like "careful, hot coffee" on coffee mugs and signs like "don't forgot to check the car for your kids" because idiots keep locking them in during summer.
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The NTSB did find an instructor liable when his student lost control and crashed on a first solo after reaching behind his seat to grab his phone that was going off -- on takeoff.

To be clear, I'm not being critical of the OP. Everyone makes mistakes, and hindsight is 20/20. I'm just saying that the notion that instructors should be (and are not) ensuring we explain things that should be relatively obvious is a weird direction to take this conversation. Everyone lapses in common sense from time to time, but instructors cannot always be the first people we blame for that.
 
Caramon13 said:
On the pavement. FL has a law about it too, you get caught, you could be fined up to 50K.

Florida law prohibits dumping "sumped" aviation fuel on the ground (soil, pavement, or waterway). Violators are subject to a fine of up to $50,000. See Section 403.727, Florida Statutes for details.
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Save it till you get airborne and dump it like an airliner.
 
What I don't get is its illegal ($50K fine mentioned earlier) to dump dumped fuel, but its OK to pull the drain on the gascolator when you can't reach to catch it.
 
Caramon13 said:
I wouldn't say its the instructor's fault because well, someone ought to know better than to either dump lead on the ground or put a contaminated sump back into the tank. I've seen people do it all the time at my home field. Heck I even had an instructor sump a full container of fuel, look at it and dump it out. In that case, law of primacy takes over for someone who's just learning.

But then again, we have to put things like "careful, hot coffee" on coffee mugs and signs like "don't forgot to check the car for your kids" because idiots keep locking them in during summer.
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When I worked for my dad during college breaks (building homes), we would occasionally need to use a tool called a ram-set. It's a nail gun that uses a .22 blank cartridge to fire a hardened nail into concrete. Right on the box, there was the pic of a hand with the business end cocked against it and a big red "X" through it...what's amazing is that someone, somewhere must've done it or it wouldn't be on there...
 
MAKG1 said:
Because it's illegal to dump it on the ramp. Lead and all that.

Most places do have legal dumping stations, though.
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I hear you. There's just no way I'm knowingly dumping water back into a tank to possibly screw the next guy who comes to fly it but forgets to sump. Figure out another way.
 
jsstevens said:
What I don't get is its illegal ($50K fine mentioned earlier) to dump dumped fuel, but its OK to pull the drain on the gascolator when you can't reach to catch it.
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It's actually not OK. People just look the other way.

FYI, for older 182s and some other airplanes that make it way too hard to sump legally with one person, you can put a clear tube over the outlet, that goes into your GATTS jar. I just did this on a 206 the other day. There isn't a good solution for 177s, though, short of asking the fuel truck to borrow their spill bucket, as there are two outlets on opposite sides of the airplane.
 
Harold Rutila said:
The NTSB did find an instructor liable when his student lost control and crashed on a first solo after reaching behind his seat to grab his phone that was going off -- on takeoff..
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This thought process is one reason I don't do flight instruction with primary students and flight reviews for private pilots anymore.
 
Going back to the original topic, for which I do apologize, "always" sump your fuel really means always. After you fuel up, included. You may have pumped a tank full of water from the FBO if their tank leaked some water into it, for example.
 
That article says there are 13 places to sump fuel on a 172. Did I miss 10 of them when I was training? Am I missing some on the 182?
 
aggie06 said:
That article says there are 13 places to sump fuel on a 172. Did I miss 10 of them when I was training? Am I missing some on the 182?
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New relaunched 172s, now complete with lawyer approved sumping ;)
 
aggie06 said:
That article says there are 13 places to sump fuel on a 172. Did I miss 10 of them when I was training? Am I missing some on the 182?
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Yea, the ones I rent have 13, 5 on each wing, 3 underneath, makes preflighting fun.
 
If it's such a huge fine, just dump it in the crew car. After you turned it back and make ready for departure. :p
 
As James said, it is the "relaunched" Cessna models that have the 13 places to sump fuel from. If you fly one of the older models, you're not missing anything. My Cardinal only has the one in each wing, plus the strainer and the belly drain.
 
SoonerAviator said:
No, I haven't. I did all of my training in the 172R/S models which had the 13-sump system (thanks a lot, lawyers).
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It's not lawyers, it's common sense given the design of the tanks. One sump per side won't do. On the older models, one is enough to get water out.
 
SoonerAviator said:
No, I haven't. I did all of my training in the 172R/S models which had the 13-sump system (thanks a lot, lawyers).
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Yeah, one of the many things I miss from flying my Cherokee 180..Three and done on that one..on a 172 I spent an hour just sumping.
 
noahf said:
After around 100 flights, always sumping to check the fuel and never finding anything, yesterday was the day. The left wing: nothing. The right wing: water at three sump points.

See photos attached. At first it almost looked like air bubbles, but it quickly became clear (no pun intended) that there was water at several sumps.

Using the GATS jar for the first time with water, I carefully poured the fuel back into the tank. And... it seemed that some of the water made it through the (new/undamaged in appearance) filter. Lesson learned from talking with someone from the flight club later -- when water is mixed in, dump it. Although I always do the eco friendly thing, given how rare this is it sounds like good policy to dump when water is mixed-in. Any feedback?

PS. Didn't fly after pouring the fuel back in, to let the water settle + be sump-able later.
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Checkout_my_Six said:
have you ever sumped water from any of them? :eek:
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Sadly, yes last summer.
Pumped in about 10 oz or so water from the new self serve fuel facility at KODO. My plane with excellent fuel caps was hangared at this dry, high desert airfield.
I have a bigger story to tell; I flew three times (1 hr ea time) practicing shortfield landings & pattern work and the water only suddenly showed up when sumping before the fourth flight since refuelling. Apparently, this water had been hiding behind the ribs in the wet wing. I never fail to sump all 13 points before any flight. Surprise! Glad I found that water before the engine did.
This is noteworthy for the accident investigators. How many times has it been asked "Why did the mishap airplane's supposedly good engine suddenly quit? "
I've demonstrated the wet wing can hide water, and you never know when you are going to pump in some water when refuelling, so you late model Cessna operators rock your wings and sump one cup from each quick drain! Religiously!
 
that's interesting.....:eek:
oilburner said:
Sadly, yes last summer.
Pumped in about 10 oz or so water from the new self serve fuel facility at KODO. My plane with excellent fuel caps was hangared at this dry, high desert airfield.
I have a bigger story to tell; I flew three times (1 hr ea time) practicing shortfield landings & pattern work and the water only suddenly showed up when sumping before the fourth flight since refuelling. Apparently, this water had been hiding behind the ribs in the wet wing. I never fail to sump all 13 points before any flight. Surprise! Glad I found that water before the engine did.
This is noteworthy for the accident investigators. How many times has it been asked "Why did the mishap airplane's supposedly good engine suddenly quit? "
I've demonstrated the wet wing can hide water, and you never know when you are going to pump in some water when refuelling, so you late model Cessna operators rock your wings and sump one cup from each quick drain! Religiously!
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Lindberg said:
What is that? I've never seen or heard of one.
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Essentially, a big sealed bucket protected from the elements. A fuel truck or pump MUST have one, somewhere. If they don't, the fuel is probably not safe to use due to contamination. Most airports have several spread around the field. Around me, they come in plastic sheds along with spill kits, at any airport with fuel, even really small ones.
 
iamtheari said:
Going back to the original topic, for which I do apologize, "always" sump your fuel really means always. After you fuel up, included. You may have pumped a tank full of water from the FBO if their tank leaked some water into it, for example.
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If I can tell it right, recently read a story that made a big impression on me. Someone borrowing a plane from a friend. Plane has been outside in the cold, freezing temperatures. He sumps the tanks, all ok. The guy he's borrowing the plane from comes by and suggest they move it into the heated hangar to make it easier to start. Plane warms up. I think at some point they also added fuel. After a while they take it out, start it up, and off he goes, and gets engine fail shortly after takeoff.

The end story, they figured out, the plane had been sitting outside with tanks filled half or lower. Humidity in the air, condensation, created rime ice on the inside of the tank over the fuel level. When they brought it into the hanger it melted, then out again and flying it had flowed to the bottom and formed ice that blocked the intakes.

I hope I had the details right, but the pilot takeaway from his experience was to sump before taxiing out.

On the other hand, as a newbie, I've been taught to sump before any movement on the airplane, as that could mix water and fuel so it was hard to detect. Or you have to wait (but how long?) again...

Maybe something though to remember in similar circumstances.
 
Frost in the tanks is common in cold climates. And you can't sump ice through the little drains. Actually its a bad idea to try to sump in cold temps because the quick drains are usually frozen solid and if you can move them they won't re-seat when you try to drain ice crystals through them. Isopropyl is an important winter tool.
 
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