Always Check the paperwork!

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Charley2

Filing Flight Plan
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Charley2
Recently I went to Iowa for an "accelerated CFI" training program. Guaranteed 7 days! Sounded like the plan for me as I have spent much time and have no access to a complex airplane in the local area. I had been working with a local instructor who is also an airline pilot, so my skills just needed a little sharpening up and I thought the 7 day program would fill the bill. Hitting it hard for six and a half days from about 8 am to 5 pm in the classroom and the Piper arrow, I felt fairly confident after the pep talk from the young instructor. On Friday the 15th of Oct (and seventh day of the class) I flew the arrow solo to the FSDO in Ankeny, IA. for the checkride.
Dropping the maintainence records at the appropriate desk, I met with my Inspector for the oral. He was a super nice guy and things were going very well for about an hour and a half. Then in came the maintenance
guy asking where the AC Registration was. I answered that it was in the kick panel of the plane in a "baggie". I had seen a couple of crumpled pieces of paper in it after I asked my instructor the same thing the first day of training. The Inspector said that the baggie contained only the airworthiness cert and the Iowa registration...not the FAA registration.

Well, at that point things came to a screeching halt. No Registration - no checkride. Calling my instructor and notifying him of the situation...he would call his mechanic guy and look for the paperwork. No Dice!

So, my friends, when going for a checkride - always make sure that all the required AROW paperwork is in the A/C. Now I'm about where I started. Back home with no complex plane to fly...
At least I have a $2000 sign off for spins!

YIKES
 
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Charley2 said:
So, my friends, when going for a checkride - always make sure that all the required AROW paperwork is in the A/C. Now I'm about where I started. Back home with no complex plane to fly...
Click to expand...

Did they allow you to depart Ankeny without the documents on board or did you have to leave the plane behind ?

A couple of months ago I was about to take a plane for a saturday morning donut+coffee. Given the propensity of FAA dudes to show up at those events, I wanted to double-check the paperwork. The guy who was to come with me said 'yeah, we just bought that one, the pink slip is in the little pouch'. Did look in the pouch, found a pink-slip, date was from 15months ago and reflected the last prior transaction......:incazzato:
 
No, I had to leave the plane...wait 2.5 hrs for a ride back..no help carrying all my bags, books, gps, jacket, etc. to the other a/c which they conveniently parked about a quarter mile from the FSDO building. I was a very happy customer indeed.
 
I went out to our rental Citabria once with a student and checked the paperwork. Couldn't find a stitch of paperwork in the airplane. We went back into the office to see who had flown it last. As luck would have it was one of our local FSDO inspectors that had flown it last.

A phone call to him inquiring if he knew what might have happened to it resulted in about the fasted replacement paperwork from the FAA I am aware of.

Note: I doubt he had anything to do with it disappear, but bet he didn't check before he flew it. Will never know for sure though.

Brian
 
When was the annual completed? If the paper work was not in the aircraft then, the A&P-IA should get his butt kicked, because he didn't even know if it was a US registered aircraft.
 
Sorry to hear about your paperwork issue. Expensive lesson learned.

But since you were there for an accelerated CFI course... your instructor failed you, as well you failed yourself on day # 1. You should have caught it the first time you flew the airplane. ALL Private Pilots know they should inspect the AROW before renting an airplane. You had a week to catch this issue...

I don't mean to sound harsh... I had the same problem as a new CFI when the FAA guy came to rent one of my airplanes and could not find the Operating Limitations (it was in the office). In S-LSA, these are several pages long and not just a postcard that needs to be in the airplane. Lesson learned, I now check it every time I fly.
 
I had a deal about 10 yrs ago where I bought a plane from a dealer
in the southeast. He had a ferry pilot who delivered them for him(airline pilot
as a regular job).

So the guy brings the plane and I'm going thru the paper work and
there's no airworthiness certificate in it. So I informed the ferry pilot
that he'd just flown an aircraft with no AC up here and I asked if he'd
checked the paper work before he left .. obviously he hadn't. I think
he thought that maybe wasn't the smartest flight he'd taken.

The plane had just had an annual and had an overhauled engine hung
on it so I'm sure it got lost in the shuffle.

I just took the logs and all the paperwork I had over to the FSDO and
talked to one of the inspectors. He looked thru everything and looked up
the plane on their computer and said it had a valid AC so he made me
another one.

RT
 
I've grounded one of the club's planes because paperwork was missing. Someone had taken it home to copy. ARROW is #1 on my checklist and will always be correct or I don't pull it out of the hangar.
 
The sad part is how far we have come as a "the bureaucracy is more important than reality" nation.

A simple piece of paper does NOT an un-safe aircraft make.
 
tdager said:
The sad part is how far we have come as a "the bureaucracy is more important than reality" nation.

A simple piece of paper does NOT an un-safe aircraft make.
Click to expand...

Just because we are only hearing from survivors in this thread doesn't mean that a missing document can't send the aircraft straight to the bottom of a smoking hole.

Just check the news to see how often aircraft crashes involve a failure to file a flight plan.
 
Thanks for beating me up guys.. I guess I do deserve that. It was ultimately my responsibility. I received a pink slip for it too and was happy that they didn't "violate" me. The failure goes against the instructor as well. I'm sure we both will think twice (and look twice) next time we get in any plane besides my own.
 
I am from Russia, so I'm up on this paper game. A Russian may leave home without pants, but he'll never forget the passport. I always check ARROW carefully. But I know that it's a show. How much this charade is bankrupt is aptly demonstrated by the fact that one of airplanes I rent has an AFM that obviously mismatches the plane. But it's stamped with the tail numer and that is what's important. Anyone who wants to know V numbers or calculate takeoff performance uses an ancient type manual available from FBO's library instead. But this is how the game is. As pilots we have no choice but bend over and hope they won't bobhoover us this time.
 
Charley2 said:
Thanks for beating me up guys.. I guess I do deserve that. It was ultimately my responsibility. I received a pink slip for it too and was happy that they didn't "violate" me. The failure goes against the instructor as well. I'm sure we both will think twice (and look twice) next time we get in any plane besides my own.
Click to expand...

Trust but verify. I would say that you learned a valuable lesson. Did you get a disapproval or continuance?
 
zaitcev said:
I am from Russia
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Big thread hijack...

What does this say? What are they selling?

DSC01210%20cropped.jpg
 
Everskyward said:
Big thread hijack...
What does this say? What are they selling?
Click to expand...
Cakes on the left, beer on the right. Google says that «Кампиво-Аэро» is a concession bar located at the Yelizovo airport, in Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky (presumably, "Kam" stands for "of Kamchatka", "pivo" is beer). Coincidentially, Yelizovo is the only VFR base and Airclub for the region 1500 mile wide, maybe more than that. I suspect the people are there to meet arrivals, there must be an exit gate outside of the frame to the right.
 
tdager said:
A simple piece of paper does NOT an un-safe aircraft make.
Click to expand...
I won't argue with your statement as it stands, but the AROW rule is so basic, so well-known, taught so early in the game, and so easy to check that there is no excuse for getting stuck by it -- especially when you show up for a practical test with the FAA. Heck, "Aircraft Documents" is the first item on the Applicant's Checklist in the PTS!

And kudos to you, Charley2, for having the guts to post your experience. One thing for sure is that you've got one important quality for a CFI -- sharing your screw-ups as well as your successes.
 
zaitcev said:
Cakes on the left, beer on the right. Google says that «Кампиво-Аэро» is a concession bar located at the Yelizovo airport, in Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky (presumably, "Kam" stands for "of Kamchatka", "pivo" is beer). Coincidentially, Yelizovo is the only VFR base and Airclub for the region 1500 mile wide, maybe more than that. I suspect the people are there to meet arrivals, there must be an exit gate outside of the frame to the right.
Click to expand...
That's true. Here's a wider shot.

DSC01210.JPG


You're right about the exit. The building on the right is the terminal. We were intrigued by "Mr. Pilot" and wanted to go over there to see what it was but wandering was not allowed. Petro was an interesting airport. There were lots of cold war relics parked in the trees off to the sides of the runway and taxiways.
 
Ron Levy said:
I won't argue with your statement as it stands, but the AROW rule is so basic, so well-known, taught so early in the game, and so easy to check that there is no excuse for getting stuck by it -- especially when you show up for a practical test with the FAA. Heck, "Aircraft Documents" is the first item on the Applicant's Checklist in the PTS!

And kudos to you, Charley2, for having the guts to post your experience. One thing for sure is that you've got one important quality for a CFI -- sharing your screw-ups as well as your successes.
Click to expand...

So if the aircraft has a radio station license, what do you do with it now? ARROW?
 
Tom-D said:
So if the aircraft has a radio station license, what do you do with it now? ARROW?
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Actually, I teach AR(R)OW, but, I also teach that the radio license is only required for international flying (and then, not in Canada or the Bahamas), and FAA Inspectors are under instructions not only not to ask about it, but not even look at it if it is presented without request, which is why I put it in ().
 
zaitcev said:
I am from Russia, so I'm up on this paper game. A Russian may leave home without pants, but he'll never forget the passport. I always check ARROW carefully. But I know that it's a show. How much this charade is bankrupt is aptly demonstrated by the fact that one of airplanes I rent has an AFM that obviously mismatches the plane. But it's stamped with the tail numer and that is what's important. Anyone who wants to know V numbers or calculate takeoff performance uses an ancient type manual available from FBO's library instead. But this is how the game is. As pilots we have no choice but bend over and hope they won't bobhoover us this time.
Click to expand...

Very wise post!
 
zaitcev said:
I am from Russia, so I'm up on this paper game. A Russian may leave home without pants, but he'll never forget the passport. I always check ARROW carefully. But I know that it's a show. How much this charade is bankrupt is aptly demonstrated by the fact that one of airplanes I rent has an AFM that obviously mismatches the plane. But it's stamped with the tail numer and that is what's important. Anyone who wants to know V numbers or calculate takeoff performance uses an ancient type manual available from FBO's library instead. But this is how the game is. As pilots we have no choice but bend over and hope they won't bobhoover us this time.
Click to expand...
Very Wise.

However, I think the first such summary was attributed to Donald Douglas....something about "when the weight of the paperwork exceeds the weight of the airplane, only then can the airplane fly...."
 
Tom-D said:
Better reference.

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/h_sf01775.html
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Except it says
Do I need a licence for the aeronautical radio equipment on board my aircraft?
You will not require a licence if you meet both of the following criteria:

  • the aircraft is not operated in the sovereign airspace of a country other than Canada.
  • the radio equipment on board the aircraft is only capable of operating on frequencies that are allocated for aeronautical mobile communications or aeronautical radio navigation. You can verify whether the frequencies you use are in the aeronautical mobile band by referring to Regulation by Reference (RBR-1).
Click to expand...
Note the first bullet. I read that as saying "the aircraft doesn't cross the Canadian border." If you take a US registered plane into Canada you have operated the aircraft in the sovereign airspace of a country other than Canada and thus require a licence or license for us Yanks) per the Canadian government.

This doesn't address whether the US government will check. (My experience in a whopping two border crossings is that they will not, nor will the Bahamians. Your experience may be different.)Also note that the Canadians apparently require both a personal operator's license and a license for a handheld.
Do I still require a Radio Operator Certificate?
Yes. The Radio Operator Certificate is still a requirement for anyone who may be operating the aeronautical radio equipment, regardless of whether a radio licence is required.
Click to expand...
and
Is a licence required for portables or mobiles used for ground operations at an airport, if these radios operate in the aeronautical mobile bands?
Yes a licence is required. The exemption applies only to aeronautical radio equipment on board aircraft.
Click to expand...

Again, I'm not contending that these are actually verified. I have never flown into Canada, despite having a CAN-PASS, so can't comment on whether they will check any of these licenses.
 
Tom gave you what the Canadians are telling their own pilots and as such, it is worded correctly. Once outside Canada, the Canadians don't care whether Canadians have the license or not -- it's up to the other country. Same thing here -- the FAA doesn't care at all, and outside the USA, it's up to the other country. As I said, Canada and the Bahamas don't require it. The Turks & Caicos do, and checked mine when I was there a few years ago. Dunno 'bout the Mexicans, but I'll bet that whether the Mexican Federal government requires it or not, you may still need something to satisfy local officials, and even the correct paperwork may not do that. I understand Presidential portraits and cartons of Marlboros go a long way in that regard "south of the border."
 
As far as ARROW goes, you are supposed to have a radio license outside of the continental US, correct? This is including Alaska as requiring a radio license if I remember right. So not JUST international flying.

Which FAR states this? I'm having difficulty finding it.
 
ajstoner21 said:
As far as ARROW goes, you are supposed to have a radio license outside of the continental US, correct?
Click to expand...
From a US perspective, the FCC requires the radio license when crossing the US border, but not inside the USA. However, I've never heard of the FCC checking for radio licenses of aircraft stopping at Customs on the way in (and Customs does not check -- no agreement with FCC to do so the way they have with FAA for aircraft registration certificates), and I haven't any idea of how they could check on the way out. The FAA couldn't care less either way -- in fact, the FAA Inspector's handbook specifically prohibits them from asking, and even tells them to hand back radio licenses unexamined if presented without request.

This is including Alaska as requiring a radio license if I remember right.
Click to expand...
As long as you stay within Alaska, there's no requirement, either, but flying from CONUS to AK requires crossing the US border, so technically, there is an FCC requirement to have the license, but the FAA won't check and I've never heard of US Customs even asking or the FCC hanging around Alaskan border airports to check N-reg planes arriving from Canadian airspace for radio licences. Of course, you'll be flying through Canada, but they don't require the radio license for US aircraft in their airspace or crossing their border, so that side is a non-issue.

Which FAR states this? I'm having difficulty finding it.
Click to expand...
Not surprising, since there isn't an FAR on point. You'd have to look in the FCC regulations to find it.
 
Ron Levy said:
Tom gave you what the Canadians are telling their own pilots and as such, it is worded correctly. Once outside Canada, the Canadians don't care whether Canadians have the license or not -- it's up to the other country. Same thing here -- the FAA doesn't care at all, and outside the USA, it's up to the other country. As I said, Canada and the Bahamas don't require it. The Turks & Caicos do, and checked mine when I was there a few years ago. Dunno 'bout the Mexicans, but I'll bet that whether the Mexican Federal government requires it or not, you may still need something to satisfy local officials, and even the correct paperwork may not do that. I understand Presidential portraits and cartons of Marlboros go a long way in that regard "south of the border."
Click to expand...

Mexico is changing. It is really difficult to straight up bribe them anymore. There are usually too many people around. They really have become more like the US. Everything has become really official. Normally if you have an issue, the handler can be used to work out your issue. You will normally work out the price with them, then they deal with the officials. That's not a bribe now is it. I like to call it an expediting fee. The expediting fee is normally paid for in presidential portraits as you described.
 
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