Altitude over I-70
- Thread starter David Loftus
- Start date
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
You got it.
One of these years I'm gonna take the class. I go right through La Veta driving for the elk hunt. I'd like to fly into KSKX from the Midwest. I wouldn't dare pull it off without taking a course being a flatlander. I always thought La Veta was one of the "easier" passes from my Google searches
denverpilot
Tied Down
I wouldn’t go so far as to say don’t do it — it’s kinda like VFR flying cross country. There’s days when you can and days when you should stay on the ground.
That said, nothing wrong with personal minimums.
On a calm day, flying over mountain passes in the cool of the day where you have at least some performance margin and a healthy ability to turn around and go back if it gets turbulent… is wonderful stuff.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Wilkerson is great. It’s short and sweet and then you’re in the Alamosa Valley.
As someone else said, then south from there. Ponca.
All of these on good weather days.
And agreed, stay out of Monarch. The number of days it isn’t ripping the AWOS anemometer off the State radio tower are very few up there.
Oh yeah. The Mountain AWOSes. Great resource.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
On a nice day….instead of LaVeta, go a bit further north, straight line west from Spanish Peaks 4v1 take Mosca Pass (wider than LaVeta Pass )and you pop out over the Great Sands Dunes!
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
I won't do that route w/o TWO Firebreathing engines and well undergross.
Rapid City, V536 Newcastle, Muddy Mtn V235 Rock Springs V6 Ft Bridger SLC can be done at 12,000
Rapid City, V536 Newcastle, Muddy Mtn V235 Rock Springs V6 Ft Bridger SLC can be done at 12,000
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denverpilot
Tied Down
I'm an idiot, MOSCA is great for the Alamosa valley... Wilkerson is the high pass straight west of Leadville right? Whichever one that is, two of my mountain instructors both say that's the pass (between ASE and Leadville) where they've come the closest to hitting rocks... on days that didn't look that bad. It's very high and if the wind switches to southerly, you'll get horrendous downdrafts right at the narrowest and highest spot.
I've been through it on a nice day and it takes freaking fooooooorrrrreeeeeevvvveeeerrr to climb out of ASE, then double back along the ridge to the north and get to tjhe altitude to get over it.
Anyway, definitely mixing up pass names....
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
That's Aspen/Leadville = Independence Pass. Not fun in a car (1 lane in some places) definitely not in an airplane because the pass is so narrow there's no way to turn and get out of trouble. HIghly recommended by Colorado Pilots Assoc, Colorado Civil Air Patrol, and everyone else around here to NOT fly Independence Pass.
Wilkerson is east of the mountain line that's the east "wall" of Leadville/Buena Vista/Salida valley. It's almost a no-brainer, if you don't know where it is, you might not even notice it other than being on the map. I just stay at 12.5 going west and look for the 2 little lakes. Don't forget to look down and see South Park. Yes, that's a real little town.
For those interested, you can download the Colorado DOT Div of Aeronautics map of the state with details on all the passes and the digital book of all 72/74 airports in the state at
https://www.codot.gov/programs/aeronautics
Might provide answers to many questions here. Plus both are fun to read. I hand last year's paper versions out at the Young Eagle ground school we teach. Kids love having something in their hands, and it keeps the out of date material out of the trash bin. Well, at least out of our trash bins.
This is why I wouldn't attempt it without taking a course. One of those things I don't know what I don't know.
Ed Haywood
En-Route
What does CPA say about Tennessee Pass going from Leadville?
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
I dunno....grab/download the map and check. I'm at work and don't have the detailed notes from the course.
By the way, anyone interested can sign up for the CPA and/or the NMPA courses at
Mountain Flying Page - Colorado Pilots Association
Mountain Flying - New Mexico Pilots Association
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Here are the directions from Aspen to Leadville thru Tennessee pass:
1. After takeoff from Aspen runway 33, turn right approximately 30 degrees to clear runway 15 approach lane. Continue climb to 11,500 feet MSL while proceeding westbound along the north side of the valley.
2. Approaching the Basalt-El Jebel-Spring Park Reservoir area, begin turning right to follow the valley south of the Eagle Airport and then eastbound to Avon. After Avon continue turning to the right until arriving over the town of Minturn.
3. Cross Minturn at 11,500 feet or higher and continue along the deep valley to Tennessee Pass.
4. Tennessee Pass is a "V" shaped pass. Extra altitude is recommended for this crossing.
5. Adhere to the proper headings as there are INVITING, WRONG, VALLEYS from Minturn to Tennessee Pass.
6. Fly on the updraft side of the valley as Tennessee Pass is approached. Turn on landing lights before reaching the pass.
7. After landing at Leadville, pick up your certificate for landing at the highest paved, public use airport in the United States of America.
1. After takeoff from Aspen runway 33, turn right approximately 30 degrees to clear runway 15 approach lane. Continue climb to 11,500 feet MSL while proceeding westbound along the north side of the valley.
2. Approaching the Basalt-El Jebel-Spring Park Reservoir area, begin turning right to follow the valley south of the Eagle Airport and then eastbound to Avon. After Avon continue turning to the right until arriving over the town of Minturn.
3. Cross Minturn at 11,500 feet or higher and continue along the deep valley to Tennessee Pass.
4. Tennessee Pass is a "V" shaped pass. Extra altitude is recommended for this crossing.
5. Adhere to the proper headings as there are INVITING, WRONG, VALLEYS from Minturn to Tennessee Pass.
6. Fly on the updraft side of the valley as Tennessee Pass is approached. Turn on landing lights before reaching the pass.
7. After landing at Leadville, pick up your certificate for landing at the highest paved, public use airport in the United States of America.
Wagondriver
Line Up and Wait
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375Taylor
The mountains are really not that scary! If you are flying anything with ANY performance, you can readily fly all over Colorado.
Tennessee pass is NOT a steep valley with rocks pointing out to grab you, in fact that is the case with almost every pass. Independence pass is tight in a car, but not in an airplane, but it is high. If you have an airplane that can't get to 14k, don't fly in the mountains. Sure there are plenty of wrecks around there, watch the weather, look at the barometer in various places. Remember from private pilot training that air move from high pressure to low pressure? Could create a downdraft on the low pressure side.
Flying in the mountains where there is traffic, fly the right side of the valley. ( the traffic going the other way will be on their right side). Give yourself room to turn around, but that isn't hard in most passes. If the winds are crappy, go back. Cross ridges at a 45 degree angle if you suspect you are on the leeward side. Watch a basic mountain flying video, there are plenty out there by good instructors. If you are unsure of winds, cross passes at 1000 agl, from a 45. From the windward side, expect an updraft, then a downdraft on the leeward side. In an updraft pitch up, get as much out of it as you can, in a downdraft, pitch down and gain airspeed to get out of it as quick as possible. Usually the ups and downs last far less than a minute.
I realize many people unfamiliar with high DA ops crash in the mountains. It seems this is mostly due to failure to understand performance loss, and perhaps the failure to understand weather. Those of us based at high DA, fly all the time in the high country, for just a nice morning sight seeing flight. The mountains will not reach up and grab you. Get to pass crossing altitude several miles before you get there, if you can't, turn around.
If its a nice clear day, the winds aloft forecast is good, there are no lenticulars, go check it out. Check it out with lots of clearance to the ground. I've got a friend that did flight training in a 150 with an 0200, out of RIL. Two normal size guys CAN land AND takeoff from KGWS on a summer morning.
There are days that flying a single piston in the mountains is a bad idea, but there are LOTS of days where it is not.
Photo is Leadville, looking toward KEGE. NOT a good day to fly over the divide.
Attachments
denverpilot
Tied Down
No disagreement. It can be great fun.
For those reading along note the somewhat wishy washy limits he mentions though. “Maybe this” and “maybe that”.
That’s the stuff COPA tries to flesh out in the course.
Stuff like item 5 in the list above. Turning up the wrong valley in there can mean no way out or a serious ass puckering course reversal.
These days with an iPad or just the way I learned, keep your finger on the paper chart and know everything you’re seeing out the window matches exactly where you think you should be… and know your “out” at all times…
You really can enjoy the rocks on a good weather day.
The photo is an instant “peaks obscured” thought without even thinking about it for me from that ramp there. And you can’t outclimb that cloud layer.
It just takes practice and a bit of a different mindset. Without those rocks in that photo and the DA, that’s a standard crap layer to climb out thru in the Midwest. Grin.
It’s a margins thing. You run out of them pretty quick.
I’ve departed LXV off the top of my Cessna performance chart. It was only 72F. The airplane did as expected, the world’s slowest high altitude cruise climb. Wasn’t even 500 ft/min. But we knew that was how it was going to go. Don’t try and pull the nose up anymore. Just … wait. You cleared the treeline. Now turn gently toward Buena Vista and let the terrain falling away be your “climb rate”.
It all makes sense from the physics point of view. Just pay close attention to the performance charts and visualize what it really means.
“It’s going to take ten minutes of max performance climb to be 1000’ above that pass… if we aren’t getting book performance our out is to reverse course to the right and fly down valley and we need 800’ AGL minimum to make that turn.”
For those reading along note the somewhat wishy washy limits he mentions though. “Maybe this” and “maybe that”.
That’s the stuff COPA tries to flesh out in the course.
Stuff like item 5 in the list above. Turning up the wrong valley in there can mean no way out or a serious ass puckering course reversal.
These days with an iPad or just the way I learned, keep your finger on the paper chart and know everything you’re seeing out the window matches exactly where you think you should be… and know your “out” at all times…
You really can enjoy the rocks on a good weather day.
The photo is an instant “peaks obscured” thought without even thinking about it for me from that ramp there. And you can’t outclimb that cloud layer.
It just takes practice and a bit of a different mindset. Without those rocks in that photo and the DA, that’s a standard crap layer to climb out thru in the Midwest. Grin.
It’s a margins thing. You run out of them pretty quick.
I’ve departed LXV off the top of my Cessna performance chart. It was only 72F. The airplane did as expected, the world’s slowest high altitude cruise climb. Wasn’t even 500 ft/min. But we knew that was how it was going to go. Don’t try and pull the nose up anymore. Just … wait. You cleared the treeline. Now turn gently toward Buena Vista and let the terrain falling away be your “climb rate”.
It all makes sense from the physics point of view. Just pay close attention to the performance charts and visualize what it really means.
“It’s going to take ten minutes of max performance climb to be 1000’ above that pass… if we aren’t getting book performance our out is to reverse course to the right and fly down valley and we need 800’ AGL minimum to make that turn.”
David Loftus
Pre-takeoff checklist
I love flying the mountains on beautiful days, but I don't take chances when the winds are up or visibility is down. Diamonds are incredible to fly on smooth days, but a 39'6" wingspan and light wing loading makes them very uncomfortable in moderate turbulence. I'm definitely a fair-weather fan ;-)