Alternative medician

corjulo

corjulo

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Corjulo
Alternative medicine

I really hate alternative medicine. I mean I read stories like the one below and my blood boils. I say this as one jaded by watching his wife get conned out of a whole lot of money by quacks in sandals promising they could somehow cure our daughters cerebral palsy.

Give me the scientific method over folklore any day. I'm curious what others think


http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0523/050608_news_naturopath.php
 
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Trust...but verify.

I never rely on one doctor's opinion and never, ever tell the second doctor that I've already seen someone. If the cure for whatever ailment really, truly worked, I've always figured that it would be more of a standard procedure instead of something you had to go see some shaman about.
 
corjulo said:
I really hate alternative medicine. I mean I read stories like the one below and my blood boils. I say this as one jaded by watching his wife get conned out of a whole lot of money by quacks in sandals promising they could somehow cure by daughters cerebral palsy.

Give me the scientific method over folklore any day. I'm curious what others think


http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0523/050608_news_naturopath.php
Click to expand...

So, You would rather trust a medicine that has been out for 2 years over a herb or acupuncture treatment that was worked for 10,000 yrs?

There is good doctors on both sides of this fence. The best is a doctor that understands both.
 
Eamon said:
So, You would rather trust a medicine that has been out for 2 years over a herb or acupuncture treatment that was worked for 10,000 yrs?

There is good doctors on both sides of this fence. The best is a doctor that understands both.
Click to expand...
Define "worked". All too often results aren't based scientific method with homeopathic remedies. Anecdotal evidence becomes "fact" after enough time. Statistically, a homeopathic remedy may end up working in some people while being completely ineffective in others. Without true understanding on HOW it works and WHY it's working in some and not others, it's nothing more than a crapshoot.
 
Brian Austin said:
Statistically, a homeopathic remedy may end up working in some people while being completely ineffective in others.
Click to expand...

Strange, ethical pharmaceuticals have the same issue...sometimes they just flat don't do any thing...and nobody has yet determined how to predict who those unlucky people might be.
 
I find this site informative, what do think?

www.quackwatch.org

Quackwatch, Inc., which was a member of Consumer Federation of America from 1973 through 2003, is a nonprofit corporation whose purpose is to combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, and fallacies. Its primary focus is on quackery-related information that is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere. Founded by Dr. Stephen Barrett in 1969 as the Lehigh Valley Committee Against Health Fraud, it was incorporated in 1970. In 1997, it assumed its current name and began developing a worldwide network of volunteers and expert advisors. Our activities include:
 
I think that modern medicine (MM) is excellent (although far from perfect), mainly because it is based largely upon The Scientific Method (very quickly; the arrival at a truth though unbiased testing of an hypothesis - do a search for TSM).

There are quite a few conditions or diseases however that MM is unable to help or cure at this time.

Understandably, we find people seeking alternative methods because of this.

Alternative medicine (AM) has historically avoided blinded, randomized, controlled studies conducted to statistical significance. (they are not proven using science) I have even heard proponents say, "We can't because it does not lend itself to such studies".
Because of this, and the history of so many charlatans taking advantage of disease-sufferers through their brand of snake-oil, many proponents of MM are Very, Very, leary of *all* AM.

My personal belief of AM is that much of it will be proven to be useful in time. If a chiropractor/homeopathist/herbalist really has improved your life, even through the Placebo Effect (do a search for TPE) then that is the truth... for you. More power to you.

Until I am in a position where MM is unable to help me, I will probably not pursue the assistance of an AMist. No offense to those who do, or who are involved in the business of AM.... just my observations of the AM vs MM debate and my personal decision of what I chose for my health - I fully respect yours may be different.
 
Re: Alternative medicine

Give me the scientific method over folklore any day. I'm curious what others think..
http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0523/050608_news_naturopath.php
Click to expand...

Nothing has changed in 3000 years. Laetrile, Leeches, spells, incantations. You get what you seek. Nothing more.

My mother had breast carcinoma. The naturopath made her "feel good". Meanwhile her disease progressed. What the_uck! They never do what they don't want to do, anyway.

Like I say to both my mother in law, and father in law (separately, divorced): "Don't be asking me what to do. You never do it anyway".
 
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Eamon said:
So, You would rather trust a medicine that has been out for 2 years over a herb or acupuncture treatment that was worked for 10,000 yrs?

There is good doctors on both sides of this fence. The best is a doctor that understands both.
Click to expand...


Yep, that's right. It all chemistry. Age is irrelevant.
 
Well, I've had some great help with naturopathic medicine. Part of the reason is I have some digestion/allergy problems that one Dr. after another couldn't do much about. I found that by reading a lot of literature and through a process of elimination, some vitamins, minerals and digestive aids are a real help. Also, controlling my diet.

The path to finding this was by real trial and error, numerous Medical Doctors that were touted as being the best, and a lot of promotions that didn't do anything but make the promoter money.

Mainstream medicine is still what I rely upon when an infection arises or for normal tests and advise, but my doctor has now accepted the fact that I know what's going on in my body better than he ever will, and the supplements I take are not harmful. Therefore, if they help, he's fully supportive.

My observation is many of the MDs I've seen have tremendous egos. They are used to treating a lot of folks that are almost like cattle. Can't tell them much about what's wrong or how medications affect them. They are not used to a patient with a lot of knowledge about a problem that is not main stream and aren't willing to take time for repetitive visits and coaching to solve a problem that runs in a family (Mom, Sister, Brother, and niece have the same type of problem).

I had one Doctor get so mad at me when I told him what I had gone through and how I had been able to control it, he shook like a little kid and couldn't talk.

While I highly respect MDs, I've found they simply can't keep up with everything and don't address long term problems that don't fit the PDR very well. Insurance won't pay for it either. Yes, there are other folks that take advantage of that, but if my Dr. had helped more, even at an additional charge, I wouldn't have gone elsewhere. I have never had a doctor call me between visits and say, "gee, I've thought about your problem and researched it. What do you think of this!!". No, it's wait until I have an infection or other real problem, work me in for ten minutes and prescribe something.

My problems just didn't fit this and I didn't have much choice but to find other alternatives. Most of these are dietary, but some are supplements.

Best,

Dave
 
Thanks Bruce. Wish you were closer.

Some how I seem to find 'em.

Didn't mean to infer the MD wasn't my prime guy. I've just had to figure out a lot of other things on my own to get where I am. Felt so bad I couldn't work and got infections pretty frequently before figuring out what to change several years ago.

Best,

Dave
 
I've only met one doctor in my life that had a really big ego...And I married his daughter to get even
 
corjulo said:
I've only met one doctor in my life that had a really big ego...And I married his daughter to get even
Click to expand...

Spend some time with neurosurgeons. These guys are something. Their talent is incredible with egos to match.
 
My personal opinion is that if the FDA had some control over the certification and release of herbals, I'd be more inclined to use them. Since there is no control, how do I know that that ginko that is supposed to help my memory won't give me some kind of crazy unstoppable diarhea or something horrible like that.

I figure that the FDA mandates the full disclosure of possible side-effects for a reason.
 
NickDBrennan said:
I figure that the FDA mandates the full disclosure of possible side-effects for a reason.
Click to expand...

Ever read the PDA? that full disclosure is not made in full on the PIs of most pharmaceuticals.... people would be making themselves sick just reading it.
 
Re: Alternative medicine

corjulo said:
Give me the scientific method over folklore any day. I'm curious what others think
Click to expand...

I think you are underinformed and that the article, well, how many people died in a small plane today? (and yes, they are related, if you think about it).

WorldWide (not just US) there are scores of scientific studies underway in the areas of "alternative" medicine. Curiously, "alternative" medicine is only an alternative for the last 100 years or so. TCM has a few thousand years worth of case history to back it up. The Eclectics performed scientific studies on herbal claims (and refuted quite a bit of them) before the "new fangled medicine" of today began to do so.

Here in the states, research is being undertaken in combinatorial therapy (complementary & traditional) by Cornell Medical Center, Lehman College (CUNY) in conjunction with the NIH, Beth Israel Medical Center, the Weil Center in Arizona, and many others. If you want studies, PM me and I'll send you more reading material than you really want to deal with. I'll also send you scary reading material on the stuff you prefer, and why being a doctor prescribing multiple Rxs is scary, tricky, and something not to be done at home off road <^; If you knew what some of the chemicals being developed today did to cells in vitro, you may be leary of what they are doing in vivo... since there is no way to know all the possible permutations and combinations. This is especially true in the age of genetic manipulation, a field I am, regretfully, all too familiar with.


Not all "Alternative Medicine" is evil, bad, or even to be disregarded. In the HepC field, use of Japanese medicine is helpful to people going through the Interferon-ribavirin therapy, and in some cases the Japanese meds alone are just as effective as the drugs in chronic non-responders (which is most HepC patienst, unfortunately). Here in NYC we have a TCM practioner who has a large cohort of HepC patients ... they couldn't tolerate the Western Treatment of Choice, or they have no faith in it (not without reason, unfortunately).

In addition, indigenous medicine may well be the best available in countries where people are not going to be paying $10 usd for a purple pill, as $10 USD would be more money than they'd see in a lifetime. That's only tangentially related, but the fact that the study of Epidemiology has its roots in European Herbalism during the time of the plague has some merit.
Also while you may not feel comfortable giving lily of the valley to someone having a heart attack, taking digitoxin as prescribed is basically the same thing. While you yourself may not have a need for periwinkle medically, some cancer treatments are based off this herb. Please note that a qualified herbal practitioner is as educated and in some cases, more educated, than your regular internist. Please note that I wrote "qualified". In fact, my IM is a qualified ethnobotanist/herbalist as well as a medical director at our clinic. Quite frankly, i feel much safer in her hands than in someone who is not fully versed in all of the available routes out there.... especially as I seem to have won the Pharmaceutical Allergy Tendency award.

There are bad medicine stories for every type of therapy. there are people getting suckered all the time out of their concern for their loved ones, not nec. by non-western medical docs either.

It might be advisable not to throw out the Baby with the Bath water.
 
Alan said:
Spend some time with neurosurgeons. These guys are something. Their talent is incredible with egos to match.
Click to expand...
Well, Alan, these guys ARE next to God, you know....
 
Re: Alternative medicine

sierra said:
I think you are underinformed and that the article, well, how many people died in a small plane today? (and yes, they are related, if you think about it).

WorldWide (not just US) there are scores of scientific studies underway in the areas of "alternative" medicine. Curiously, "alternative" medicine is only an alternative for the last 100 years or so. TCM has a few thousand years worth of case history to back it up. The Eclectics performed scientific studies on herbal claims (and refuted quite a bit of them) before the "new fangled medicine" of today began to do so.

Here in the states, research is being undertaken in combinatorial therapy (complementary & traditional) by Cornell Medical Center, Lehman College (CUNY) in conjunction with the NIH, Beth Israel Medical Center, the Weil Center in Arizona, and many others. If you want studies, PM me and I'll send you more reading material than you really want to deal with. I'll also send you scary reading material on the stuff you prefer, and why being a doctor prescribing multiple Rxs is scary, tricky, and something not to be done at home off road <^; If you knew what some of the chemicals being developed today did to cells in vitro, you may be leary of what they are doing in vivo... since there is no way to know all the possible permutations and combinations. This is especially true in the age of genetic manipulation, a field I am, regretfully, all too familiar with.


Not all "Alternative Medicine" is evil, bad, or even to be disregarded. In the HepC field, use of Japanese medicine is helpful to people going through the Interferon-ribavirin therapy, and in some cases the Japanese meds alone are just as effective as the drugs in chronic non-responders (which is most HepC patienst, unfortunately). Here in NYC we have a TCM practioner who has a large cohort of HepC patients ... they couldn't tolerate the Western Treatment of Choice, or they have no faith in it (not without reason, unfortunately).

In addition, indigenous medicine may well be the best available in countries where people are not going to be paying $10 usd for a purple pill, as $10 USD would be more money than they'd see in a lifetime. That's only tangentially related, but the fact that the study of Epidemiology has its roots in European Herbalism during the time of the plague has some merit.
Also while you may not feel comfortable giving lily of the valley to someone having a heart attack, taking digitoxin as prescribed is basically the same thing. While you yourself may not have a need for periwinkle medically, some cancer treatments are based off this herb. Please note that a qualified herbal practitioner is as educated and in some cases, more educated, than your regular internist. Please note that I wrote "qualified". In fact, my IM is a qualified ethnobotanist/herbalist as well as a medical director at our clinic. Quite frankly, i feel much safer in her hands than in someone who is not fully versed in all of the available routes out there.... especially as I seem to have won the Pharmaceutical Allergy Tendency award.

There are bad medicine stories for every type of therapy. there are people getting suckered all the time out of their concern for their loved ones, not nec. by non-western medical docs either.

It might be advisable not to throw out the Baby with the Bath water.
Click to expand...


You mentioned studies ongoing. I think you'll find there actually are very few serious double blind studies going on. But if there are then great. They will be published and make their way into traditional medicine. But what irks me is the retail crack pots. Keep in mind, a 30% effective rate is consider dismal in traditional medicine. 30% is general recognized as the rate of the placebo effect. Yet the natural-path, homeopath, Craniosacral, energy field, patterning, touchy feely "here drink this" crowd consider 30% a success, thats on a good day. Show me the data

As for herb vs prescription drugs made from the same chemicals. There is a big difference between a pant grown, picked, ground up and sold and a FDA approved medication that's carefully measured, tested and the dosage carefully monitored.
 
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Dan.

I certainly agree there are folks taking advantage of the herbal stuff; some pretty bad Docs out there also. When I say I've found alternatives that work for me, that didn't mean I didn't go to my MD for primary advise. There are places where one doctor after another just couldn't help me. I found some digestive aids that significantly improved digestion. The other things are just vitamins and minerals, but they really help me. So, I'm not way out there; just using a few supplements that really help my particular circumstance.

Alternative medicine has gotten where it is because folks needed more than mainstream medicine offered. Many things not scientifically proven may not be for many reasons. Who is going to pay for those studies? The drug companies do because they stand to make huge profits. Who will profit from the study of the affects of a common herb?

Many folks need things they can't afford through the mainstream system. I don't think anyone will argue our present system of medical treatment isn't broken. A few are paying for the many that can't afford private insurance. The alternative is to wait in an emergency room every time one is ill and hope public assistance will pay for the medication and treatment. BTW, my doctor doesn't even know how much to bill me for treatment. They have to check with my insurance provider, then what ever I paid at the office is adjusted. Last visit, in addition to my doctor's bill, I received statements from several labs; each bill had an adjustment for what my insurer allowed in payment. This must be an administrative nightmare for the medical profession.

Going back to what Sierra said, you know MDs and DOs can't know everything. They just need to be open minded when it comes to alternatives. Several things that Naturopaths claimed years ago, are becoming mainstream. Many theories have been shown not to have merit. I can also think of several mainstream practices that have been proved incorrect after being used for years. But, if you're someone that needs help NOW, waiting for something to become mainstream isn't much of an option. For healthy folks with no big problems or with problems that mainstream medicine can help, no big deal. If your choice was between being sick and homeless while relying on mainstream treatments; or, reasonably well and running six companies by complementing mainstream with alternative supplements--you'd be viewing the world through my eyes.

Can't tell you how disappointed I was with several docs referred to me. They allowed a very short office visit, made a suggestion and that was it. You should have heard my discussion with an internal medicine doctor that teaches at the local university about digestion aids. After several visits, she opened the PDR and offered to prescribe pancreatin to assist my digestion. I pulled out an alternative that was purer, had no fillers, binders, or additives. She couldn't believe it. (I had reacted to the PDR version and the alternative caused no discomfort.) She did try for awhile, then gave up. Told me I had a weak immune system and she couldn't do anything. I couldn't work, was losing my home and was getting pretty down. She also suggested I was depressed--well, wouldn't you be? Turns out, I have very bad allergies which may cause poor digestion, or maybe the digestion problem is genetic. Docs didn't offer much. Alternative medicine got me back on track.

There are places mainstream medicine is wonderful. There are places it can reasonably be supplemented.


Best,

Dave
 
bbchien said:
Well, Alan, these guys ARE next to God, you know....
Click to expand...

Yeah, but they think God is next to them.

Ask the wrong question and they get real testy, real quickly.
 
My wife was a nanny for two neurosurgeons when I met her. Strange people, huge egos, but pleasant on a social basis. Quite smart too, obviously.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Dan.

I certainly agree there are folks taking advantage of the herbal stuff; some pretty bad Docs out there also. When I say I've found alternatives that work for me, that didn't mean I didn't go to my MD for primary advise. There are places where one doctor after another just couldn't help me. I found some digestive aids that significantly improved digestion. The other things are just vitamins and minerals, but they really help me. So, I'm not way out there; just using a few supplements that really help my particular circumstance.

Alternative medicine has gotten where it is because folks needed more than mainstream medicine offered. Many things not scientifically proven may not be for many reasons. Who is going to pay for those studies? The drug companies do because they stand to make huge profits. Who will profit from the study of the affects of a common herb?

Many folks need things they can't afford through the mainstream system. I don't think anyone will argue our present system of medical treatment isn't broken. A few are paying for the many that can't afford private insurance. The alternative is to wait in an emergency room every time one is ill and hope public assistance will pay for the medication and treatment. BTW, my doctor doesn't even know how much to bill me for treatment. They have to check with my insurance provider, then what ever I paid at the office is adjusted. Last visit, in addition to my doctor's bill, I received statements from several labs; each bill had an adjustment for what my insurer allowed in payment. This must be an administrative nightmare for the medical profession.

Going back to what Sierra said, you know MDs and DOs can't know everything. They just need to be open minded when it comes to alternatives. Several things that Naturopaths claimed years ago, are becoming mainstream. Many theories have been shown not to have merit. I can also think of several mainstream practices that have been proved incorrect after being used for years. But, if you're someone that needs help NOW, waiting for something to become mainstream isn't much of an option. For healthy folks with no big problems or with problems that mainstream medicine can help, no big deal. If your choice was between being sick and homeless while relying on mainstream treatments; or, reasonably well and running six companies by complementing mainstream with alternative supplements--you'd be viewing the world through my eyes.

Can't tell you how disappointed I was with several docs referred to me. They allowed a very short office visit, made a suggestion and that was it. You should have heard my discussion with an internal medicine doctor that teaches at the local university about digestion aids. After several visits, she opened the PDR and offered to prescribe pancreatin to assist my digestion. I pulled out an alternative that was purer, had no fillers, binders, or additives. She couldn't believe it. (I had reacted to the PDR version and the alternative caused no discomfort.) She did try for awhile, then gave up. Told me I had a weak immune system and she couldn't do anything. I couldn't work, was losing my home and was getting pretty down. She also suggested I was depressed--well, wouldn't you be? Turns out, I have very bad allergies which may cause poor digestion, or maybe the digestion problem is genetic. Docs didn't offer much. Alternative medicine got me back on track.

There are places mainstream medicine is wonderful. There are places it can reasonably be supplemented.


Best,

Dave
Click to expand...

Dave;

Thank you for saying it so well. I have been self employed for over 30 years in my business and yes to get insurrance in the 1970s and 1980s was very difficult and raise a family. I did go to mainstream but I was so lucky in that I had a doc who is a combination of both mainstream and alternative. He believed in checking out alternative sources for pain control. I have been using acuputure for pain in the joints and it works for me. No pills to upset the chemistry.

I do have from the service days disgestive issues and we have found a way to treat and make things work.The VA in those days was Hell to say the least and lots more pain. I gave up with them.

The doc and I work together on what I have and set up a plan to treat it. I know I am so lucky for it has taken many years to find a doc who can listen and learn from his patients. He also reads a ton and never stops learning. He also knows his limits and that is the best part.

Now with a new major crisis with my eyes he has helped me get to the Wilmer Eye Clinic in Baltimore. They do look at basic diet (vitimans and vegtable sources) to help delay the on set of Macular Degeneration. Interesting in the last two years since going on a strong vegtable diet and vitamans my eyes are not getting worse.

Our relationship works so well for we learn from each other to solve or at least work on making things better. It is basic Doc and patient relations and I am so lucky to have found a person who "Tunes In" and he expects me to Tune in as well.

Sometimes I feel like we have become "Sheepeople" when it comes to many of our activities including getting health care.

Thank you again for saying it so well

John J
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Thank goodness there are no pilots like that!
:rofl:
Click to expand...

Yeah, I guess.

It's a long story that I'll not get into, but they can be difficult. As can some pilots.
 
It's a long story that I'll not get into, but they can be difficult. As can some pilots.
Click to expand...


My point was that I don't think we can generalize about any one group of people, any one profession, or walk of life. Not to dismiss what I'm sure was a bad experience for you. But I have met fantastic people in Walmart, in the O.R., at Fly-ins, in the 7-11, in government, etc.
And we have all met less than stellar people in all walks of life I'm sure.
:yinyang:
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
My point was that I don't think we can generalize about any one group of people, any one profession, or walk of life. Not to dismiss what I'm sure was a bad experience for you. But I have met fantastic people in Walmart, in the O.R., at Fly-ins, in the 7-11, in government, etc.
And we have all met less than stellar people in all walks of life I'm sure.
:yinyang:
Click to expand...

I suppose....
 
mikea said:
This stuff is NOT harmless. Some of these quacks have killed people and a very few have forced to account for it.

http://www.randi.org/jr/042205modern.html#6
http://www.randi.org/jr/042905some.html#4
Click to expand...

But more than a few people have been killed by good, old fashioned, "conventional" doctors also, including a friend of mine who was dead before 30 because of bad medicine. In fact, doctor's mistakes kill more people than guns do. It's something you will find in both conventional and alternative medicine.
 
Re: Alternative medicine

I used to have a 'traditional' Dr. Her answer to everything was to Rx something. I would go in for a checkup and have a short list of issues to discuss with her, she heard them, then ignored them. Her worst indiscretion was Rxing me Prozac. She listened to a 5 minute blab from me about how bummed I was about the long dark winter and that I missed my kids (I had just moved to WA from SoCal). She decided in that 5 minute period that I was depressed.
So, now I have a Naturopathic Dr, and her husband is my Acupuncturist. She's one of the best Dr's I have ever been to. Best one was a traditional OB-GYN/Surgeon in SoCal that has long since retired.
 
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