All examinees of DPE Edward L. Lane to be required to re-test

John Baker said:
What is actually involved with this so called re-test? Is it a full blown check ride or is it just flying around with someone from the FSDO so they can assure themselves you know how to make an airplane go and you are familiar with the pertinent rules and regs.?

-John
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From the letter that was attached in the original post:

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The reexamination will consist of a complete practical test as set forth in the appropriate practical test standard (PTS) for the applicable certificate or rating.
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MAKG1 said:
Is this, by any chance, another example of pencil-whipped practical exams? It seems this has happened before.
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Pencil whipped? Not sure this is the right use of the phrase and it's the second time I've heard it in the past week.

When I heard it, pencil whipping was something admin types did to punish people who annoyed them. Practically it was things like "accidently" making mistakes on important forms such as promotions so they get returned. Most annoying in the military was anything that made your pay statement go off balance because it would take 2 years to get it back in balance. Probably the worst was if the doc lost your shot record.

What you're describing would be called gun-decking, graping (as in grape) or "radioing", at least in Navy lingo. I'm sure other services have terms for describing the same thing of signing off things that weren't really done. All hypothetically of course.

In any case - it can't be tolerated in any industry that practices integrity.
 
bflynn said:
Pencil whipped? Not sure this is the right use of the phrase and it's the second time I've heard it in the past week.

When I heard it, pencil whipping was something admin types did to punish people who annoyed them. Practically it was things like "accidently" making mistakes on important forms such as promotions so they get returned. Most annoying in the military was anything that made your pay statement go off balance because it would take 2 years to get it back in balance. Probably the worst was if the doc lost your shot record.

What you're describing would be called gun-decking, graping (as in grape) or "radioing", at least in Navy lingo. I'm sure other services have terms for describing the same thing of signing off things that weren't really done. All hypothetically of course.

In any case - it can't be tolerated in any industry that practices integrity.
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It's pretty common to associate pencil whipped with completing a document and or endorsement stating something was done that was never done.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pencil_whip
 
SkyHog said:
You have information that he is an innocent man? Because i have evidence (in the form of a letter from the FAA sent to hundreds of pilots) that says he is not.
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So? that does not constitute evidence that he is guilty. It's just a letter from the FAA implying such - essentially hanging him out to dry before guilt has been determined. Innocent until proven and all that jazz.
 
John Baker said:
How many on this board, other than recently certificated pilots, could prepare for and pass an FAA administered check ride within 30 days from right now, when that same FAA is biased against them from the start?


-John
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First, with 30 days notice, I'm sure that even at my rustiest I could get ready. Maybe 4 hours of dual going through the manuevers, and 6 hours of hitting the books. But what makes you think the FAA is biased against the pilots? Do you really think that all the inspectors are looking forward to this? Maybe there's one guy in the FSDO who had it in for Mr. Lane, I don't know. But he's not gonna do all the 709 rides himself. You're really seeing demons where there's no evidence of their existence.
 
John Baker said:
How many on this board, other than recently certificated pilots, could prepare for and pass an FAA administered check ride within 30 days from right now, when that same FAA is biased against them from the start?
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I'm wondering how the FAA would manage to find enough inspectors to conduct 500 retests in 30 days!
 
I'm more troubled by the fact that they waited to take action until 500+ people were examined by their Designee. That's the logical disconnect here. How long does it take a typical DPE to give 500 rides?

They're hanging themselves as much as they're hanging the Designee. If their only interest is Safety, they should have stopped him long before 500 rides.
 
TMetzinger said:
First, with 30 days notice, I'm sure that even at my rustiest I could get ready. Maybe 4 hours of dual going through the manuevers, and 6 hours of hitting the books. But what makes you think the FAA is biased against the pilots? Do you really think that all the inspectors are looking forward to this? Maybe there's one guy in the FSDO who had it in for Mr. Lane, I don't know. But he's not gonna do all the 709 rides himself. You're really seeing demons where there's no evidence of their existence.
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......
 
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It is actually not in the best interests of the FAA nor General Aviation to fail most of the pilots who have to retake these checkrides. Just imagine the public outcry if the FAA did find that of the 700 pilots he passed 650 were not capable of flying safely. I would have to think that the opposite is true. Furthermore, as it has been explained to me the purpose of the checkride is to confirm for the FAA that your CFI(I)'s opinion that you fulfill the criteria for the certificate is true. Therefore, if you take it one step further, if they fail a large number of the pilots who had checkrides with him, then there is going to be a large number of CFI(I)'s who should be shaking in their pants as well. This will then become a condemation of the entire general aviation training program, and given how our government runs I could see it spreading to all of us needing rechecks with the FAA. Logically, (I know logic may not apply)I cannot believe this is what the FAA wants and so I truly believe that they would rather pass everyone of these pilots than fail them.

Doug
 
Based on my observations as a CFI doing mostly flight reviews and instrument checks, I'd be surprised if the majority of any 500-700 sample population of 2-3 year pilots could pass the check ride if they were called for retest without a significant amount of re-training and preparation.
 
I'm affected by this and honestly numb, at a loss.
WOW!
 
Please keep us posted. I'd like to know what sort of issues you run into, if any, scheduling your ride. And then, of course, how that ride goes.
 
wabower said:
Based on my observations as a CFI doing mostly flight reviews and instrument checks, I'd be surprised if the majority of any 500-700 sample population of 2-3 year pilots could pass the check ride if they were called for retest without a significant amount of re-training and preparation.
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Are we really that bad?
 
Insofar as passing a check ride, you (as a group) are a sorry lot. For two years after the check ride, no training is required and few volunteer. Many pilots are tapped out or have spent much less time at the airport, and their flying has diminished significantly since obtaining their rating. Many were flying at their very best when they took the ride and didn't pass with flying colors. Any diminution would have resulted in a pink slip. Many couldn't pass the oral.

It's not that they couldn't get back up to speed, it's just that they're not there now. Many pilots have taken a break (whether or not they admitted it) and have come back and advanced greatly.



douglas393 said:
Are we really that bad?
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wabower said:
Based on my observations as a CFI doing mostly flight reviews and instrument checks, I'd be surprised if the majority of any 500-700 sample population of 2-3 year pilots could pass the check ride if they were called for retest without a significant amount of re-training and preparation.
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I think you are correct but it shouldn't be that way.
 
wabower said:
Insofar as passing a check ride, you (as a group) are a sorry lot. For two years after the check ride, no training is required and few volunteer. Many pilots are tapped out or have spent much less time at the airport, and their flying has diminished significantly since obtaining their rating. Many were flying at their very best when they took the ride and didn't pass with flying colors. Any diminution would have resulted in a pink slip. Many couldn't pass the oral.

It's not that they couldn't get back up to speed, it's just that they're not there now. Many pilots have taken a break (whether or not they admitted it) and have come back and advanced greatly.
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THIS is why I do a training flight every month. I enjoy it, too!
 
spiderweb said:
THIS is why I do a training flight every month. I enjoy it, too!
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Good for you! I received a eye-opening surprise when I became a CFI. People would come to get checkouts in the club airplanes and... holy cats! This is not just a recent phenomenon either since it was years ago.
 
Everskyward said:
Good for you! I received a eye-opening surprise when I became a CFI. People would come to get checkouts in the club airplanes and... holy cats! This is not just a recent phenomenon either since it was years ago.
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My CFI and CFI-IA (same person) passed on to me the well-known notion that you will be at your best on the day of your checkride. After that, it is downhill from there, UNLESS you keep up training and practicing. I do so because 1) I think it is fun, and 2) I feel it important for safety, as I travel with my family and for business.
 
wabower said:
Hence the OP on this subject. They don't.
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They don't what? Have a choice to train? Sure they do. It sucks that they have to re-test. I would be ****ed off. But they do have a choice to train.
 
They don't train or they would fly better than they do.

spiderweb said:
They don't what? Have a choice to train? Sure they do. It sucks that they have to re-test. I would be ****ed off. But they do have a choice to train.
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John Baker said:
...REMOVED PER REQUEST OF AUTHOR...
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I think you're reading too much into their intentions. It doesn't make sense to manufacture evidence by handing out undeserved failures to a couple hundred pilots. That's a pretty brazen abuse of power and requires a lot of people at the FAA to play along. Anyone trying to pull that off is just begging to get called out on it. And for what gain? Even if the FAA has some personal vendetta against the guy, they probably don't need a bunch of people to fail this retest to make a case against him.

You're overlooking a perfectly rational explanation: They have (or think they have) reason to believe there were problems with his exams. Either he wasn't qualified to give exams at all or they think some of the exams were done improperly. That means, in their eyes, some or all of the pilots weren't tested according to FAA policy. So they've got a choice, either let some unknown number of potentially unqualified pilots keep flying or retest everyone. As much as it sucks for everyone affected, retesting everyone is a rational choice for an agency charged with ensuring airmen are properly certified.

If you look at these tests from the standpoint of ensuring that everyone flying is qualified to do so, it's pretty clear why they want to get these done quickly.

John Baker said:
...REMOVED PER REQUEST OF AUTHOR...
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I could. And I suspect many others could as well. It'd be a PITA for sure, but performing to the practical test standards shouldn't be the insurmountable obstacle you're making it out to be. Now, having the time and money to devote to it might be a different story.

John Baker said:
...REMOVED PER REQUEST OF AUTHOR...
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True, if the inspector decides before the exam that I'm going to fail, then it's quite likely he'll find a reason to fail me. Especially if there are no other witnesses. But as I say above, I simply don't believe that's the aim of these tests.
 
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I'm now convinced I know everything I need to know about this subject. Will the first guy who re-takes the test please post in another thread? Click.
 
douglas393 said:
Are we really that bad?
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I'm suspect many are, because much in that test was not excercised, like bunch of numbers for oxygen levels (just carry the oxygen if you go high, numbers are only legal limits). Of course we fly much better with practice. I, for one, attend my WINGS flight phase items in order not to sag between (ex-B)FRs. I'm not concerned for the flight portion.
 
John Baker said:
I'm done with it all, I don't have the money anymore, and I'm tired of beating my head against a brick wall. I have no respect for bureaucrats ever since I was threatened to my face by one who was with the California State Board of Equalization years ago.

I received one PM from a fellow who claimed he was not with the FAA, that to me, was also threatening my life as a result of what I posted on this thread.

I was given my options, and told I had already failed the test. He wound it up with the comment that he was concerned for my health.

I forwarded it to another member of this board who did not feel that it was all that threatening. Anyone else who wants to look at it, PM me and I will send a copy.

Anyway, there is nothing but air between him and me. If you were indeed threatening me, take your best shot M F.

-John
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Please send it to me so the management council can review.
 
John Baker said:
...The FAA is building a case against Mr. Lanes competency. They must be able to show that he passed unqualified pilots, therefore, they must be able to present unqualified pilots that Mr. Lane certificated. Thirty days to prepare for what will prove to be a very nit picking check ride is not realistic, even for a well schooled and experienced pilot such as yourself...

-John
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The FAA doesn't have to build a case against Mr. Lanes. There really isn't a lot of oversight of their decisions concerning pilot certification (most reviewing entities defer to the FAA's judgement) so if you think they need to bust pilots to show the righteousness of their actions, you are mistaken.

If an active pilot can't prepare for a 709 ride in thirty days s/he shouldn't be certificated. That's just the hard reality of it. In the military we used to periodically get no notice checkrides--zero time to prep. You were required to be able to perform to your rating and have your gear/publications current every time you flew. I don't know if the FAA exercises it much but I believe they can give anyone a 709 ride and they needn't show cause.
 
Just a thought would it be possible to get a checkout in an lsa for an lsa rating to negate the test requirement?
 
I had to go look up what a "State Board of Equalization" was. It's just the Taxation folks?!

What a telling name... wow.

Sorry, Off-topic but that name... just... wow.
 
denverpilot said:
I had to go look up what a "State Board of Equalization" was. It's just the Taxation folks?!

What a telling name... wow.

Sorry, Off-topic but that name... just... wow.
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Not all taxes; just sales and use tax, and fuel, alcohol, and tobacco taxes and fees. Income tax is handled by the Franchise Tax Board.

A Google search shows that numerous states have equalization boards and departments, including Colorado. I wouldn't read too much into it.
 
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frfly172 said:
Just a thought would it be possible to get a checkout in an lsa for an lsa rating to negate the test requirement?
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Please define, if you already hold a Private or higher, then you are qualifed for LSA. All that is required is the insurance / rental checkout, not another FAA check ride.

You do not need a Sport Pilot certificate to fly light sport aircraft if you already hold a Private Plot rating or higher.
 
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