Alec Baldwin shoots and kills cinematographer.

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Kenny Phillips, Oct 22, 2021.

  1. Llewtrah381

    Llewtrah381 Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    That. And you happen to be a CFI and the student said they checked the fuel, then you run out of fuel because only one side got filled and the student happened to only check the one side. Then the plane crashes and the student is killed but you aren’t. Are you guilty of negligent homicide?

    Sure feels like a fair amount of people want jail time for an actor not at all intending to have a real, live gun in his hands and who feels horrible about the events. Maybe it could be technically classed as negligent homicide but, just like the grandfather who dropped his grandkid off a cruise ship, that doesn’t mean it should go to trial or result in jail time. In either case, would a guilty finding, let alone jail time, really reduce the likelihood of this happening again? I don’t think so. And if nobody knew the name of this actor would there be such a push for jail time? I don’t think so.
     
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  2. Lachlan

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    Getting the feel/shape/weight of the actual gun was possibly the reason to use it for rehearsing the church pew seated quick-draw that they were reportedly working on. Like simulating an engine out emergency landing- sometimes those are practiced in a real live airplanes, and they've been known to result in real live (and dead) accidents. All avoidable. Similar, yeah- dissimilar, yup. Doesn’t make the movie set actions ok by any means, but it might explain a possible reason for rehearsing with the real gun, especially if they were going to start filming after a bit of practice.
     
  3. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

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    Yeah, I ain't buyin' it.

    An inoperative gun can have the same weight and dimensions as a real one. And it's really not that hard to make a real gun into a non-functioning one in order to have a rehearsal piece. Disable a gun so that it cannot fire, spray paint it orange, and it becomes very obvious whether someone is holding the practice weapon or not.
     
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  4. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Is it just assumption that he aimed at the camera, and people behind the camera, or were they in the line of fire when he swung the weapon around?

    Not that it makes any difference to the DP.
     
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  5. FlyingMonkey

    FlyingMonkey Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Typically, on a movie production and especially one where workers are working under the IATSE basic agreement, the crew is hired as employees of the production company and are covered by a workers comp policy. The production also carries production insurance which covers liability, equipment rental etc etc. and the insurance company's application requires the production to detail if there are stunts, pyro, firearms, etc etc. before they quote and issue the policy.
     
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  6. Robert Gee

    Robert Gee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It could be nearly impossible without a hammer strike or a dram scale to tell if a round is live or not.

    ...and since you didn't see any reports of the victims you must not live in Chicago, you just got the fauxnews version of what they want you to be mad about. Did you hear about the shootings within a hundred miles of where you live? Did you get their name?
     
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  7. Warlock

    Warlock Cleared for Takeoff

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    Why would that make a difference…? Dead is dead..negligent is negligent…Irony is Irony…Actor or not…
     
  8. Robert Gee

    Robert Gee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I guess "lighting the scene," muscle memory or "practicing how you play" might be too deep a subject for you to wade into.
     
  9. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

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    Not at all. As I mentioned in another post, practice weapons can easily be made with the same weight, shape, etc., as real ones.

    Or is firearm functionality and safety too deep a subject for you to wade into?
     
  10. Robert Gee

    Robert Gee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The reports of "cold gun" kinda haunts me. I can misconstrue that a few ways and hope they all had a clear understanding of what is meant and were using the phrase consistently.
     
  11. Robert Gee

    Robert Gee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I stuck my toe in, answered your question factually but you deflected it and reversed like a typical... If there can be identical, non-functional guns then the same thing goes for rounds and be impossible to tell the difference, so, how long would it take, right?

    A rehearsal session would also need to be run through of the handling AND firing of the gun. They need to get the sound, smoke and reactions practiced at some time or another.
     
  12. Rich Holt

    Rich Holt Line Up and Wait

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    I think you're forgetting Beetlejuice! Wait...no that was terrible too.
     
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  13. Robert Gee

    Robert Gee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    ...or that he meant to fire, or that it wasn't a worn out gun or that he had his finger on the trigger or that he had it drawn and hammer cocked then slammed it on the back of a pew or that he wasn't like so many drunken cowboys that shot themselves. Just plane un-coordinated.
     
  14. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That would be a good analogy if the person holding the gun has received training comparable to what a pilot receives.
     
  15. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'm uncertain about whether prosecution would be warranted, but if so, it seems like it could apply to more than just the last link in the accident chain in this case.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
  16. Robert Gee

    Robert Gee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    ...or that it wasn't similar to how Brandon Lee died, or that it wasn't part of a Masonic test, or that someone wanted to frame Baldwin, or that it wasn't a mfg'ing packaging flaw of the dum dums, or that the armorer mixed up the rounds, or that the AD didn't pick up the wrong gun, or that it was a rock packed in the barrel, or....
     
  17. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 En-Route

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    If I had to guess, the gun being used didn’t have an off the shelf fake version, the camera shot was probably a closeup of Baldwin (like old Clint Eastwood movies) with him holding the gun towards the camera. A realistic fake gun would cost too much to make since this movie was pinching pennies. Add a careless AD and an egotistical SOB who is used to having everything done by subordinates….and we have an “accident” that was easily preventable.
     
  18. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

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    Maybe.... But take a look at available non-firing replicas. https://www.bytheswordinc.com/c-1056-americana-and-western-pistol-non-firing-replicas.aspx Lots of period guns available and lots cheaper than what this will cost.

    But I doubt the production was buying its own guns anyway. More likely leased.
     
  19. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    I actually like the film, and just watched it (pre-shooting.)
     
  20. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think a video earlier in the thread showed inserts that prevent insertion of real bullets in a revolver. Are those expensive or difficult to find?
     
  21. Rich Holt

    Rich Holt Line Up and Wait

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    One of my favorite movies from back in the day. I don't think that Alec added much to the film though. I was more into Danny Elfman's score of that movie than anything else.
     
  22. Robert Gee

    Robert Gee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    "...and it keeps getting better, every, single, time I watch it!"
     
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  23. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    foh news. nice touch
     
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  24. Mahneuvers

    Mahneuvers Line Up and Wait

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    How is this for random?! Remember the scene in Beetlejuice where he has eyeballs at the ends of his fingertips? Well, the hands in that scene were my brother-in-laws :)
     
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  25. Rich Holt

    Rich Holt Line Up and Wait

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    Nice!!
     
  26. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    George becomes a Hand Model

     
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  27. Lachlan

    Lachlan En-Route

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    Sister’s husband or wife’s brother?
     
  28. Mahneuvers

    Mahneuvers Line Up and Wait

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    Wife's brother. He lives in Culver City. He and his neighbor were both retrieving mail out of a common mailbox when his neighbor, who was working on the movie observed, 'You've great hands! Can we use them for a movie?' He also appeared in Tony Danza's movie 'She's out of control' as one of the characters who Danza slams the door on. At the time he was a drummer in a heavy metal band and looked the part. Same deal. Walking down the street when someone noticed him and said "you'll be perfect...no makeup or wardrobe required...come just as you are!" :)
     
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  29. Wheels

    Wheels Pre-takeoff checklist

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    OSHA regulates lots of things that are work related, that has nothing to do with how private citizens do things. If I want to use a chainsaw in my backyard without eye or hearing protection while wearing flip flops and a bathing suit I am free to do so. If I tried to do the same thing on a worksite I am sure OSHA would fine my company for the violations if they found out about it.
     
  30. danhagan

    danhagan En-Route

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    I did the hunting course here in Texas with my son years ago (if you're old enough you don't need course - but I didn't want him to have to sit there on his own all day on a Saturday). Holy cow they went into EVERYTHING including muzzle load operation and bow types which was really interesting. Only thing I got hacked at was there was an actual question regarding operation of a CANNON that wasn't covered in the course:confused:
     
  31. Chip Sylverne

    Chip Sylverne Final Approach

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    Quit with the negative waves, man.
    I would argue that the estate would certainly pursue a wrongful death suit, which seems clear in this case: negligence and harm to the family. Such suits don't have the caps of workers comp claims and the production company's liability insurer would certainly be on the hook to defend. I also have no doubt Baldwin would be named if for no other reason he's a deep pocket. As such, his personal liability insurer would be called on to defend..and may just prefer to settle the case given the facts so far.

    Liability insurers subrogate all the time. For example, you crash your airplane into a school bus full of kids, your insurer will pay for more than just the damages to the bus, you are also subject to liability claims. If further accident investigation reveals the root cause of the accident was negligent design and manufacture of a critical widget, the widget manufacturer will be subrogated against for the total value of the claim, liability as well as property damage.

    I agree with you that in this case a subro is unlikely, but all the facts aren't in. I also agree insurers don't subro against their insureds. Totally off topic, but that's one of the lesser known benefits of having low-limit non-owned aircraft insurance. If the owners coverage and your policy are the same underwriter, they won't generally come after you for the excess loss.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
  32. PPC1052

    PPC1052 Final Approach

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    It's not about a cap. It's a question of the exclusivity of the remedy of worker's compensation.

    If there is co-worker immunity, again it won't matter. You can't sue him. In my state, the court would even lack subject matter jurisdiction over the claim. If there is no such immunity in this case, no doubt you are correct-- they would sue him. But again, doubtful his personal insurance would pay. It will almost certainly be resolved within the limits of the production company's insurance.

    Ok, I have been a litigator for over 25 years, all of them in the insurance defense industry defending claims exactly like that, as well bringing subrogation claims on behalf of the insurance carriers. I have never once seen a liability carrier subrogate for payments on behalf of their insured. Not saying it has never happened. But I am saying it isn't common. One problem is that the carrier steps into the shoes of it's insured, and would therefore be barred by the fault of its own insured.

    In most states, it is not even permitted to subrogate against your own insured.
     
  33. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I just want to make it clear that I stand firmly behind Alec Baldwin!

    .....cuz aint' no way in hell am I gonna stand in front of him!
     
  34. kyleb

    kyleb Final Approach

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    Ain't called a movie shoot for nothin'.
     
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  35. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Bro do you even lift
    I don't think any cast or crew was hurt like this during the filming of star wars. I guess they were a little more careful.
     
  36. X3 Skier

    X3 Skier En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I think I read someplace someone never reappeared after they went into the Transporter on Starship Enterprise. Scotty was a person of interest but since the body was never found, he wasn’t charged.

    Cheers
     
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  37. Daleandee

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    Musta been the one in the red shirt ... :D
     
  38. wanttaja

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  39. Robert Gee

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    Many of the guns in Star Wars were "real guns."
     
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  40. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Well, it helped that Imperial Stormtroopers were doing most of the shooting.