alcoholism, dui's and medical

patmike

Pre-takeoff checklist
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pat
following the advice of a few on here and the flight school i called an ame to discuss my past to see if it would be a problem before i proceeded any further with lessons.
i told him i was a recovering alcoholic with 3 dui's. now i've been sober for 18 years and the dui's were 20 years ago. he said i would have to prove my length of sobriety. that is something that i have no idea how to go about. the doctor said these things would have to be reported to the faa with the medical. one would think there would be some sort of statute of limitations on such things
 
following the advice of a few on here and the flight school i called an ame to discuss my past to see if it would be a problem before i proceeded any further with lessons.
i told him i was a recovering alcoholic with 3 dui's. now i've been sober for 18 years and the dui's were 20 years ago. he said i would have to prove my length of sobriety. that is something that i have no idea how to go about. the doctor said these things would have to be reported to the faa with the medical. one would think there would be some sort of statute of limitations on such things

Did you do AA? Maybe your sponsor could vouch for you? Sounds like a tough nut to crack.
 
Crazy suggestion but you could take a polygraph if the FAA will accept it. They are not admissible in Court but who knows. Cost is in the area of $600 to $800.

If there is another way to prove it Dr. Bruce will surely know the answer.
 
Crazy suggestion but you could take a polygraph if the FAA will accept it. They are not admissible in Court but who knows. Cost is in the area of $600 to $800.

If there is another way to prove it Dr. Bruce will surely know the answer.

Wait for Doc Bruce.

Don't even waste your time thinking about a polygraph. There's a reason they aren't admissible in court....

Only two real outcomes on a polygraph. Guilt by admission or inconclusive.
 
well theres only so many hoops i'll jump through. while on one hand i understand the concern, on the other i take great pride in my accomplishments and resent that it brought in question or my honesty about it turned into a negative.
as far as the dui's are concerned they are ancient history and can be looked upon as proof of my length of sobriety as they were 20 years ago.
 
Wait for Doc Bruce.

Don't even waste your time thinking about a polygraph. There's a reason they aren't admissible in court....

Only two real outcomes on a polygraph. Guilt by admission or inconclusive.

Eh I disagree with part of that assessment. I have experience with some clients where we have used Polygraphs, some are inconclusive, some show deception and some show the person is not deceptive and yes some folks will admit guilt. I do agree with them not being admissible, but if a party or agency will accept it the the test can achieve the intended result. Look if the FAA won't accept them its a non starter. I'm not really sure how you prove a negative but as we both agree Bruce should have the answer one way or another.

well theres only so many hoops i'll jump through. while on one hand i understand the concern, on the other i take great pride in my accomplishments and resent that it brought in question or my honesty about it turned into a negative.
as far as the dui's are concerned they are ancient history and can be looked upon as proof of my length of sobriety as they were 20 years ago.

You have a right to be proud of your sobriety but Your past has proven that you have an alcohol issue. The fact that you have not had a DUI in 20 years does not mean that you are not still drinking, I personally know and I'd bet you do as well folks with drinking problems who have never had a DUI. Also remember the FAA does not know who you are and has no clue of the hard work you've waged to get sober your just another applicant to them.

Again I applaud your efforts and sobriety but resentment is not going to get you where you want to be. I really think there is an answer to your deliemia and encourage you to stick with it. If your understandably not willing to jump through a zillion expensive hoops perhaps you can consider LSA.

I really wish you a lot of luck with this.
 
adam, i agree with what your saying. my gripe is that if they say prove it, tell me how. it's the government for god sakes. there has to be a form somewhere for this. don't leave it up to me or the ame for that matter to guess as to what would be satisfactory for them. like you said i don't want to have to spend a boatload of money in order to find out if it's worth spending a boatload of money.
i assume LSA means light sport aircarft.
 
i assume LSA means light sport aircarft.

Yup. Also known as "more fun than a barrel of monkeys".

FWIW - The sport pilot rules do not limit you to aircraft that are certified as an LSA - the aircraft just has to fit under the same limits for seats (2 max), weight (1320 lb), etc.
 
The hoops will be many. Even for Third Class, The presumption is three in a lifetime and you're out.
My guess would be a Substance Abuse Eval from a licensed counselor (about $200).
CBC, Liver Enzymes
Driivng record back to origin of DL.
Felony Search record.
Three letters from recognizeable stable persons in your community- e.g, employer, doctor, pastor.
Personal Statement
Court Records from the offenses (not that after 20 years there is any relevance) including description of behavior.

Thank you Hon Rep. Oberstar (DEM), recently beaten Congresscritter from Hibbing, MN. We're still paying your pension.

**************

If you want it, it can be done. But, let me give you the flavor of the first time requirements:

ALL of the below is just for a ONETIME offense.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...m/ame/guide/app_process/app_history/item18/v/

Application Process for Medical Certification
Applicant History - Item 18. Medical History
v. History of Arrest(s), Conviction(s) and/or Administrative Action(s)
Arrest(s), conviction(s) and/or administrative action(s) affecting driving privileges may raise questions about the applicant's fitness for certification and may be cause for disqualification. (See Items 18.n. and 47). A single driving while intoxicated (DWI) arrest, conviction and/or administrative action usually is not cause for denial provided there are no other instances or indications of substance dependence or abuse.

The events to be reported are specifically identified in Item 18.v. of FAA Form 8500-8. If yes is checked, the applicant must describe the arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) in the EXPLANATIONS box. The description must include:
The alcohol or drug offense for which the applicant was arrested, convicted, or the type of administrative action involved (e.g., attendance at an educational or rehabilitation program in lieu of conviction; license denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation for refusal to be tested; educational safe driving program for multiple speeding convictions; etc.);
The name of the state or other jurisdiction involved; and
The date of the arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action

Note: If the applicant documented ALL of the above information on previous exams AND there are no new arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) since the last application, the applicant may enter PREVIOUSLY REPORTED, NO CHANGE.

For all first-time reports of arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) the Examiner must do the following prior to issuing an airman medical certificate:
Obtain a detailed history of the applicant's alcohol use, the circumstances surrounding all alcohol-related incidents (include those reported in 18v and any others that may have occurred)
Obtain copies of all court records and arrest reports related to the event(s) if the incident(s) occurred within the 5 years prior to the exam. This includes copies of relevant military records if the incidents occurred while the applicant was a member of the U.S. armed forces (includes military court records, records of non-judicial punishment, and military substance abuse records)
Document those findings in Item 60. (See Item 47)
Forward the court records, arrest reports, and any military records to AMCD
Advise the applicant that the reporting of alcohol or drug offenses (i.e., motor vehicle violation) on the history part of the medical application does not relieve the airman of responsibility to report each motor vehicle action to the FAA within 60 days of the occurrence to the:
Security and Investigations Division
AMC-700
P.O. Box 25810
Oklahoma City, OK 73125-0810

Deferral Criteria:
The Examiner must defer certification for any of the following:
Inability to obtain and review the court and arrest records within 14 days of the date of the exam
For the alcohol- or drug-related driving incidents:
Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action for which the applicant registers a blood alcohol level 0.15 or higher
Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action for which the applicant refused blood alcohol testing
Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action within the preceding 2 years AND THERE HAS BEEN ANOTHER arrest, conviction and/or administrative action AT ANY OTHER TIME
Total of 3 arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) within a lifetime
Total of 2 arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) within the preceding 10 years

If the applicant is deferred, the FAA will require the applicant to:

Provide:
A detailed personal statement regarding his/her past and present patterns of alcohol or drug use
A complete copy of his/her current driving record in any state that he/she has held a driver’s license in the last 10 years
Copies of any court records and arrest reports related to the event(s) that have not already been provided to the AME. This includes copies of relevant military records if any event(s) occurred while the applicant was a member of the U.S. armed forces. “Relevant military records” means military court records, records of non-judicial punishment, and military substance abuse records
Obtain:
A substance abuse evaluation from an addictionologist or addiction psychologist/ psychiatrist familiar with aviation standards.

Issue Criteria:
The Examiner may issue if:
NONE of the Deferral Criteria above are met
For reported incident(s) when the most recent incident occurred more than 5 years prior to the exam, based on the exam and a detailed interview, the Examiner determines the applicant’s history does not indicate a possible substance abuse or dependence problem
For reported incident(s) when the most recent incident occurred within the preceding 5 years of the exam, based on the exam, detailed interview AND review of the court record(s) and arrest report(s), the Examiner determines the applicant’s history does not indicate a possible substance abuse or dependence problem.

************
If it were I, I'd just do light sport.
 
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thanks for the input dr. bruce. looks like i'm screwed. i have some sort of black mark in every one of those categories. looks to me like even after i gather this mountain of imformation they could still simply say no. this imformation by the way they could get with a couple of key strokes. it appears theres no redeption in the eyes of the faa.
time to get back to work on the race car.
thanks
pat
 
You do almost have to own. But look hard for a C-model Ercoupe wtih the spar inspection, a Luscome 8A, or a Porterfield. There are a few others that qualify for LSA status. The LSA legacy aircraft are all over bid but $25K will still get you one.
 
You do almost have to own. But look hard for a C-model Ercoupe wtih the spar inspection, a Luscome 8A, or a Porterfield. There are a few others that qualify for LSA status. The LSA legacy aircraft are all over bid but $25K will still get you one.
One does seem to pay a bit of a premium for LSA qualified.

Taylor Craft would be a good option. Cubs are overpriced.

Quite a few amateur built experimental as well. (Helps avoid some of the FAA nonsense on the maintenance end as well.)
 
ok, so if i go the lsa route is the training part the same? do i not even need to get a physical (inquisition)
 
ok, so if i go the lsa route is the training part the same? do i not even need to get a physical (inquisition)
You must be medically qualified to drive a car in your state so there are some medical requirements like no seizures in the past 6 months. You will need to get a student pilot certificate or something like that before your instructor can let you solo. My kids got their student certificates at Oshkosh a few years ago and no medical exam was needed.
 
ok, so if i go the lsa route is the training part the same? do i not even need to get a physical (inquisition)

There are a few things that get skipped for sport pilot - like the night landings / cross country. But in either case, you gotta learn how to fly the airplane...
 
not to be a pain but can someone explain the rational behind, if you have a bad history(ancient), you cant fly this plane but you can fly this one (lsa)
it would be easy to understand the restrictions if one were going for a commercial license.
 
They chose medical disqualification as the means of keeping out the bad history types. Sport Pilot is a recent category without a medical requirement. FYI Gliders and balloons don't require medicals either.
 
seems to me that whenever one of these government regulatory agencies want to make a rule that would be in any other circumstance unconstitutional, they call the activity they regulate a privilege. case in point, and don't get me wrong, i don't approve of drunk driving but when you get pulled over for it they say you must take a Breathalyzer and if you refuse your license is automatically suspended. thats because driving is a privilege yet the fifth amendment says that you have a right to not incriminate yourself and not to provide evidence against yourself. as you can tell i'm pretty steamed up over this.
 
find a new AME. I am also a "Friend of Bill W." I had just over 20 yrs of sobriety when I got my first 3rd class med. I handwrote a letter(while sitting in the doctors examination room that stated the time of my last DUI, the length of my sobriety and re-stated my commitment to remain sober. I walked out of the office on my first visit with the student pilot licence. I only waited a short time while the AME called Ok. City , to the FAA head AME, for approval. But get copies, last yr the computers were down and I had a glitch/scare that I would need to reapply, luckily they found my original application in a timely fashion. If your AME is making this into a big deal, find a new AME. It was a piece of cake. Dave
 
thanks dave, thats encouraging news. after hearing all of the gloom and doom i'd all but given up. as long ago as my violations were it would have been next to impossible to gather all of the info they supposedly wanted.
 
Trouble is Ddayle, the rules changed in January 2010...and the posted webpage was put up in Feb of 2011......you might want to actually read post #9 , which was posted by the FAA.

The OP can get certified, it's just a whole lotta hassle now. I've posted the source material. It speaks for itself.
 
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so if this is a recent rules change-addition what prompted it besides some government desk jockey feeling the need to justify his existence.
 
Four years of Hon Rep. James Oberstar, operating with a majority in both houses and the white house.

Got Sleep apnea? Gotta report the reporting chip on your CPAP machine verifying you are using it nightly. "We got people falling asleep everyplace.....ships, airliners, trains....." Uncle Sam is in your bedroom. Don't have a recording chip- now you've gotta buy one.

Ddayle can believe anything he wants. It's not his certificate.

"Oh, Please, Sir, may I have some more?". Sigh.

Have all 4 AME ratings.
 
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not to be a pain but can someone explain the rational behind, if you have a bad history(ancient), you cant fly this plane but you can fly this one (lsa)
it would be easy to understand the restrictions if one were going for a commercial license.

You aren't being a pain. You just have not had this nonsense pounded into your head long enough that you just accept it and move on without trying to come up with a rational explanation where none exists. :dunno:

Arguing what is and is not allowed under FAA rules is a hobby of a number of experts (and I do mean experts) on this site - and they rarely agree.
 
patmike, there is NO logic to this. It started off logical and then got distorted by Congress and by the tort situation.

If I thought it would not endanger your ability to fliy LSAs, I'd say, apply and then I could discuss it with the D&A examiner in OKC who IS reasonable but who is constrained by national policy. But a denial will render you uninsurable in the LSA due to lack of the subsequent ability to use a Drivers' license in lieu of medical qualification for LSAs. Then you will have other attorneys knocking on your door and estate.

How did we get in this pickle? It's to protect FAA, who might have "reason to know" you can't fly an aircraft (3rd class denial), then you have an accident and THEY get named (DEEPEST of pockets).

If you just go do LSA, just go do it, at the level of intesity that the FAA is at now for drugs and Alcohol, this is hardly worth the effort. Just my opinion, and I try to GET guys certified.

Oh, and I neglected one more area: self launching gliders, which have never required medicals. These are expensive, but the Stemme S10S can self launch, cruise at 17,500 at 140 knots.

Logic? a...who? ah.....what?
 
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patmike, see your PM's.

20 years is a long time and has to count for something, and I can't guarantee what I'm suggesting will work, but it might.

It does risk denial, though, which is why I personally, would just LSA.
 
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not to be a pain but can someone explain the rational behind, if you have a bad history(ancient), you cant fly this plane but you can fly this one (lsa)
it would be easy to understand the restrictions if one were going for a commercial license.

If you apply for a medical and are deferred or denied, you have to remedy that before pursuing sport pilot

If you are never deferred because you never applied, well.... "that's different"
 
If you apply for a medical and are deferred or denied, you have to remedy that before pursuing sport pilot

If you are never deferred because you never applied, well.... "that's different"

thanks, maybe i'm dense or it just didn't get put that way. so the deal is that if i apply and get denied i'm locked out of everything. but if i just jump into sport pilot i'm safe. right?
 
thanks, maybe i'm dense or it just didn't get put that way. so the deal is that if i apply and get denied i'm locked out of everything. but if i just jump into sport pilot i'm safe. right?

As long as you have a valid driver's license, have never had a denial of an FAA medical, and have no reason to know that you'd be unsafe in an airplane due to a medical issue, you can fly a light sport airplane without any medical certificate.
 
thanks, maybe i'm dense or it just didn't get put that way. so the deal is that if i apply and get denied i'm locked out of everything. but if i just jump into sport pilot i'm safe. right?
That is essentially correct......though you are supposed to have concurrence from your family doc.....
 
So if somebody has 2 DUIs within a three year period with the last conviction 14 months ago... they should go for light sport?
 
My intro flight was the only reason I became a pilot. It was in a brand new, glass panel, Tecnam Sierra Light Sport. In Europe they even do aerobatics in the little thing. It was the most fun I've ever had.

Do the Light Sport. I trained Private Pilot in a 2-seater anyways, like a lot of people do, so you may not even notice the difference.... since LSA's have two seats.

They "say" you can get it done in half the time and that it cuts all your total costs in half. The required hours are lower, and certain things are not taught.
 
My Tecnam:

5654402087_38cbbd30af_z.jpg
 
I think that someone who has that sort of recent history should abstain from flying aircraft. Would such a person still have their drivers license? or even be insurable to drive an automobile?

Get past the addiction issues. And yes. There are addiction issues.

Thats harsh, but for every time a DUI arrest occurs, there usually were a hundred other times that impaired driving occurred without arrest, which reinforces that behavior.
 
The Examiner must defer certification for any of the following:
Inability to obtain and review the court and arrest records within 14 days of the date of the exam
For the alcohol- or drug-related driving incidents:
Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action for which the applicant registers a blood alcohol level 0.15 or higher

So you only have to report or defer for 0.15? What about the 0.08 - 0.14? Does an applicant still have to report those, and if so are you allowed to issue on site still? All relative to 3rd class.
 
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