Alcohol Related Arrest Greater than 5 years Ago

Discussion in 'Medical Topics' started by Volzalum, Mar 19, 2017.

  1. Volzalum

    Volzalum Pre-Flight

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    Facts
    1. Arrested and initially charged with DUI in February 2011 (just over 6 yrs ago)
    2. Charge was changed to reckless driving and was convicted of non-alcohol related reckless driving
    3. Drivers License was not ever suspended or impacted.
    4. No alcohol treatment or education was required.
    5. A current medical was not in place at that the time, nor since.
    6. Since there was no conviction for Alcohol Related event, there were no reporting requirements to the FAA since the incident.
    7. I have not had any other incidents in my life (alcohol nor non-alcohol)
    8. Now I am considering getting my medical again (1st time in over 10 yrs) so I'll be later eligible for BasicMed
    I know that I have to report the arrest on the form, but it does not appear that I have to have court records or anything more than description in explanation box and detailed discussion of alcohol use since it was greater than 5 years ago based on this from the FAA site (underlined):

    Arrest(s), conviction(s) and/or administrative action(s) affecting driving privileges may raise questions about the applicant's fitness for certification and may be cause for disqualification. (See Items 18.n. and 47). A single driving while intoxicated (DWI) arrest, conviction and/or administrative action usually is not cause for denial provided there are no other instances or indications of substance dependence or abuse.

    The events to be reported are specifically identified in Item 18.v. of FAA Form 8500-8. If yes is checked, the applicant must describe the arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) in the EXPLANATIONS box. The description must include:

    • The alcohol or drug offense for which the applicant was arrested, convicted, or the type of administrative action involved (e.g., attendance at an educational or rehabilitation program in lieu of conviction; license denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation for refusal to be tested; educational safe driving program for multiple speeding convictions; etc.);
    • The name of the state or other jurisdiction involved; and
    • The date of the arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action
    Note: If the applicant documented ALL of the above information on previous exams AND there are no new arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) since the last application, the applicant may enter PREVIOUSLY REPORTED, NO CHANGE.

    For all first-time reports of arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) the Examiner must do the following prior to issuing an airman medical certificate:

    • Obtain a detailed history of the applicant's alcohol use, the circumstances surrounding all alcohol-related incidents (include those reported in 18v and any others that may have occurred)
    • Obtain copies of all court records and arrest reports related to the event(s) if the incident(s) occurred within the 5 years prior to the exam. This includes copies of relevant military records if the incidents occurred while the applicant was a member of the U.S. armed forces (includes military court records, records of non-judicial punishment, and military substance abuse records)
    • Document those findings in Item 60. (See Item 47)
    • Forward the court records, arrest reports, and any military records to AMCD
    • Advise the applicant that the reporting of alcohol or drug offenses (i.e., motor vehicle violation) on the history part of the medical application does not relieve the airman of responsibility to report each motor vehicle action to the FAA within 60 days of the occurrence to the:

    Am I reading this correctly that court records and arrest report are not required (and therefore would not need to be forwarded to AMCD?

    I'm trying to get all of my ducks in a row before applying to get a new Class 3 medical.
     
  2. Volzalum

    Volzalum Pre-Flight

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    I should also clarify that I will already require an SI for a medical issue that caused me to quit flying greater than 10 years ago. I do not have copies of the court records from the incidents and live about 2000 miles from the courthouse that does. If the records are not required (which the bold text on the FAA website appears to imply), then I don't want to spend a lot of energy gathering them. However if they are required then I will do what is necessary to get copies of everything that is available.

    Again, for the alcohol incident, if I was not going to be deferred for the other medical deferral I would not cross any of the following deferral criterion ( my BAC was less than 0.15):

    Deferral Criteria:
    The Examiner must defer certification for any of the following:

    • Inability to obtain and review the court and arrest records within 14 days of the date of the exam
    • For the alcohol- or drug-related driving incidents:
      • Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action for which the applicant registers a blood alcohol level 0.15 or higher
      • Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action for which the applicant refused blood alcohol testing
      • Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action within the preceding 2 years AND THERE HAS BEEN ANOTHER arrest, conviction and/or administrative action AT ANY OTHER TIME
      • Total of 3 arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) within a lifetime
      • Total of 2 arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) within the preceding 10 years
    If the applicant is deferred, the FAA will require the applicant to:
    • Provide:
      • A detailed personal statement regarding his/her past and present patterns of alcohol or drug use
      • A complete copy of his/her current driving record in any state that he/she has held a driver's license in the last 10 years
      • Copies of any court records and arrest reports related to the event(s) that have not already been provided to the AME. This includes copies of relevant military records if any event(s) occurred while the applicant was a member of the U.S. armed forces. "Relevant military records" means military court records, records of non-judicial punishment, and military substance abuse records
    • Obtain:
      • A substance abuse evaluation from an addictionologist or addiction psychologist/ psychiatrist familiar with aviation standards.
    So the question I am trying to ask is since I am required to be deferred for a medical condition, will I be held to the higher alcohol standards as if I was deferred for the alcohol condition that would not be required if I was only reporting the alcohol incident (i.e., detailed personal statement, 10 year driving record (2 states in this case), court records and arrest reports, plus substance abuse evaluation)?
     
  3. lbfjrmd

    lbfjrmd Pre-takeoff checklist

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    your 2nd post makes an answer easier. apply, report both conditions and wait for FAA instructions. where there is will there'$ a way!
     
  4. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Whether you had a medical is not as important as whether you had a pilot certificate at the time of the arrest/conviction.

    If you had a pilot certificate, even if you had no medical and were not flying at the time, you still only had 60 days to report it to the FAA security office.
     
  5. Volzalum

    Volzalum Pre-Flight

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    The 60 day reporting has been hashed out in multiple threads, but for my case there was no drivers license action taken (i.e., my drivers license was not suspended or restricted at all) and my conviction was not for an alcohol related offense ('dry'-reckless driving not DUI) so under the Federal Law there was nothing that met the 60 day reporting requirements or any reporting requirement until next Medical application.
     
  6. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

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    Pretty sure you're reading that wrong. Were you arrested for suspicion of dry-reckless?

    My understanding is the arrest had to be reported within 60 days, regardless of the eventual disposition of the case.

    More will will be along to clarify...
     
  7. Volzalum

    Volzalum Pre-Flight

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    Just for discussion, here is the notification requirements from the FAA site. In my situation there were/are no other reporting requirements except when applying for a new medical. In my case there was no administrative action against my drivers license and there was no conviction related to alcohol offense. If I had refused to consent for BAC I would have had to report under this requirement because my drivers license would have had suspended (administrative action).

    Resources
    Medical Correspondence
    Questions pertaining to correspondence received from the Civil Aerospace Medical Institute or medical eligibility must be addressed to their office at (405) 954-4821, Option 1.

    Reporting Requirements
    Under 14 CFR 61.15, all pilots must send a Notification Letter (MS Word) to FAA’s Security and Investigations Division within 60 calendar days of the effective date of an alcohol and/or drug related conviction or administrative action. In 14 CFR 61.15(c), alcohol and/or drug related convictions or administrative actions refer to motor vehicle actions (MVA).

    Notification Letters
    Note: Each event, conviction, or administrative action, requires a separate Notification Letter. For example, an airman’s driver license may be suspended at the time of arrest for driving under the influence of alcohol for either:
    • Failing a blood/breath test
    • Refusing to test
    The airman must send a Notification Letter for the suspension, then send a second Notification Letter if the alcohol and/or drug related offense results in a conviction. Even though the airman sent two notification letters, FAA views the suspension and conviction as one alcohol and/or drug related incident.

    Send Notification Letters to:

    Federal Aviation Administration
    Security and Investigations Division (AMC-700)
    P.O. Box 25810
    Oklahoma City, OK 73125
    or
    Fax to: (405) 954-4989
    To speed processing, the letter must contain the following information:

    • Name, Address, Date of Birth, Certificate Number, Telephone Number
    • Type of Violation (conviction and/or administrative action)
    • Date(s) of Action(s)
    • State Holding the Record
    • Driver License Number or State ID Number (if not licensed)
    • Statement whether this relates to a Previously Reported MVA
     
  8. bbchien

    bbchien Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Well to cut through all the cr_p:

    Did you blow?
    If you did, what did you blow?
    The only one the AME can issue is if you blew, and it was less than 0.15, as 0.15 connotes TOLERANCE. And, it has to be your one and only, and that has to be provable with Certified DMV Searches in all you states otf 10 years' residence.

    If you didn't blow the answer to your bullet point is "Prove that you were < 0.15". If you didn't blow that's kinna hard to do.

    No you can quote me everything you can find but where the rubber meets the road is: did you blow?

    No, the fact that you got the charge reduced has NOTHING to do with the FAA requirement for reporting and evaluation at the next medical. Every recorded (public) act while under the influence gets evaluated for TOLERANCE. Tolerance tell the agency that a person drinks long and hard, the only way, to get that way.
     
  9. Volzalum

    Volzalum Pre-Flight

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    Dr. Bruce, I said I knew it had to be reported at next medical, nowhere in this post did I challenge reporting it on next medical.

    For my case, the law enforcement officer took me to have blood drawn instead of blowing. BAC was less than .15. Occurrence was greater than 5 years ago. Without the medical condition that requires deferral, an AME would be able to issue in office because none of the alcohol deferral criteria are met. Driving record for entire life (20+ years since 16) is clear of alcohol offenses as the driving record does not reflect DUI, only a few speeding tickets and the reckless driving.

    The question is would the alcohol offense be treated like a more severe one that had to be deferred (require stuff that if not deferred would not be required) because the medical itself has to be deferred or would just the medical condition that required deferral be evaluated by the FAA. What I'm inferring from your response is that as an AME, you would treat all alcohol offenses as if they have to be deferred and require your applicants to have all information regardless of whether It was greater than 5 yrs or not, and then after reviewing it you would issue if possible and defer if required (so regardless of whether the regulations required the court records, you would before you made your determination). And I'm not implying there is anything wrong with that, I'm just trying to determine what the FAA will require since the medical will be deferred regardless of alcohol offense.
     
  10. lbfjrmd

    lbfjrmd Pre-takeoff checklist

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    both of your issues independently of each other are deferral-able and will be evaluated ea on its own facts.
     
  11. Volzalum

    Volzalum Pre-Flight

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    Well technically 'Every' medical is deferral-able, but in reality if an AME is deferring medicals that do not have to be deferred (i.e., the alcohol part of this discussion) then that AME is not an AME that is going to have much repeat business.
     
  12. lbfjrmd

    lbfjrmd Pre-takeoff checklist

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    imho ... both of your 'issues' need deferral.
     
  13. bbchien

    bbchien Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If you have a blood BAC <0.15 (blood test)
    If you can prove it's your one and only (Negative DMV searches in all states of residence)
    If you have a favorable CADC report done to NTSB format (that's tough to get in the community; I usually write/brief the evaluator beforehand, and insist it's M.A. level guy or higher),
    If you have evidence of an educational course.
    If the AME can determine by history that you don't have "tolerance" (He also has to read the court record of your recorded behavior and compare to your BAC).....
    If you can show the expected ABSTINENCE, and that you have never had another incident involving alcohol (watercraft OUI, etc, another Wet reckless, Military SARP, etc)
    If your personal statement makes sense vis a vis your reported drinking that night.

    THEN an AME CAN issue. His audit rate is 100% so he better have the goods.
    If I am aiming for that, I usually start off with two random urines (I have a few vendors who can and will do that remotely. The tests look back QUITE A WAYS). If you have not taken the eternal vow of sobriety, it's not good. If you have, this is a possibility.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
  14. Volzalum

    Volzalum Pre-Flight

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    Thanks to Dr. Bruce and AME ibfjrmd for your answers. Since I am sure I’m not the only one curious about this, I am going to summarize the above discussion in this post (Note most of the bolding is from the FAA site. Underlines were added for emphasis to denote added information not provided in the FAA regulations. Note that for this discussion, all aspects are related to a Third Class Medical where the applicant is already deferred due to an unrelated medical condition that practically limits the applicant to Third Class. Requirements for a Second or First Class Medical are even more stringent.


    FAA Regulations State for the AME to:

    1) Obtain a detailed history of the applicant's alcohol use, the circumstances surrounding all alcohol-related incidents (include those reported in 18v and any others that may have occurred)

    2) Obtain copies of all court records and arrest reports related to the event(s) if the incident(s) occurred within the 5 years prior to the exam. This includes copies of relevant military records if the incidents occurred while the applicant was a member of the U.S. armed forces (includes military court records, records of non-judicial punishment, and military substance abuse records)

    3) Document those findings in Item 60. (See Item 47)

    4) Forward the court records, arrest reports, and any military records to AMCD (this applies to the preceding 5 years)

    The AME is required to Defer to FAA if:

    5) AME is unable to obtain and review the court and arrest records within 14 days of the date of the exam (for incidents that are within the preceding 5 years)

    6) For the alcohol- or drug-related driving incidents:

    a) Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action for which the applicant registers a blood alcohol level 0.15 or higher

    b) Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action for which the applicant refused blood alcohol testing

    c) Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action within the preceding 2 years AND THERE HAS BEEN ANOTHER arrest, conviction and/or administrative action AT ANY OTHER TIME

    d) Total of 3 arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) within a lifetime

    e) Total of 2 arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) within the preceding 10 years

    If the applicant is deferred, the FAA additionally requires the applicant to Provide:

    7) A detailed personal statement regarding his/her past and present patterns of alcohol or drug use

    8) A complete copy of his/her current driving record in any state that he/she has held a driver's license in the last 10 years

    9) Copies of any court records and arrest reports related to the event(s) that have not already been provided to the AME. This includes copies of relevant military records if any event(s) occurred while the applicant was a member of the U.S. armed forces. "Relevant military records" means military court records, records of non-judicial punishment, and military substance abuse records. (This is referring to the court records and arrest reports that are greater than 5 years old and not already provided in Item 4)

    For applicants deferred for alcohol, the AME must also Obtain:

    10) A substance abuse evaluation from an addictionologist or addiction psychologist/ psychiatrist familiar with aviation standards.

    The AME may issue a medical if:

    11) NONE of the Deferral Criteria above (Items 5 and 6 above) are met

    12) For reported incident(s) when the most recent incident occurred more than 5 years prior to the exam, based on the exam and a detailed interview, the Examiner determines the applicant's history does not indicate a possible substance abuse or dependence problem (Note that court records and arrest reports are not required here)

    13) For reported incident(s) when the most recent incident occurred within the preceding 5 years of the exam, based on the exam, detailed interview AND review of the court record(s) and arrest report(s), the Examiner determines the applicant’s history does not indicate a possible substance abuse or dependence problem

    In practice, AMEs will most likely defer for ALL alcohol arrests (Based on ibfjrmd statement). This means regardless of how long ago (Any event newer than 1990 per Federal Law requires notification on the Medical) you will have to have your court records, arrest report, as well as meet Items 7, 8, 9, and 10 above)

    For the minority of AMEs who may issue the medical (Based on Dr. Bruce statements) the following seem to apply:

    14) Item 10 is required for Dr. Bruce to issue, and the report has to state not abuse and/or tolerance issues identified as a Certified Alcohol Drug Counselor (CADC) Report from CADC with Masters Degree or higher and familiar with FAA requirements.

    15) An alcohol education course is required

    16) The court records and arrest report (not required in Items 2, 9, and 12 above) are now required for AME to compare description to BAC to “judge” tolerance

    17) Can prove this incident is the only alcohol incident (National Driver’s Registry, and 10 yr driving history for every state in which driver’s license was held)

    18) Can prove to other incident involving alcohol (FAA Criminal Background should prove this)

    19) Personal statement on drinking the night of event makes sense compared to BAC, and arrest report/court records from Item 16

    20) Even with favorable CADC report (Item 14), AME is expecting complete Abstinence and Eternal Vow of Sobriety – If you still drink at all you will be deferred

    21) Completion of 2 Random Urine samples to document Abstinence

    So in other words, expect to get deferred if you still take a casual drink from time to time, because the AME expects 100% audit of any alcohol Medical they issue so they are covering their own a$$ and treating all offences as needing recovery as if the applicant is an alcoholic.

    If Item 20 is not met and you are deferred, you are at the FAA mercy and they may or may not issue a medical.
     
  15. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser!

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  16. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Probably 99% of the folks on here are not even affected by it. Most are smart enough not to get drunk and drive.
     
  17. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

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    @Volzalum - question: In your state of residence at the time of the arrest, did the law require the police to seize your license and issue you a temporary or other similar document?

    If so, thats a motor vehicle action. Even if they gave it back the next day -

    The rest of it is self-evident . . .

    You have to PROVE single event, and BAC - the ONLY way to do that is through some proof of residency in the same state [a DL record showing an original issue date more than 10 years ago. or multiple state records] and then a copy of hte police report showing your BAC. This is where actually having a trial and motor vehicle action helps you 6 years later because . . . there is a court record with facts and whatnot.
    So think about how you are going to prove all this - and the fit the proof to the chart.

    Remember- you need to PROVE that you are not tolerant - and that your bac was less than 0.15 and that it was more than 5 years ago- PROVE. To more reasonable than not standard.
     
  18. lbfjrmd

    lbfjrmd Pre-takeoff checklist

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    and when i need a HIMS AME i am going to Dr. Bruce too!
     
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  19. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    Would and have.

    I wish PoA was more of a real name board like BeechTalk. It’s not fair to Doc Bruce to be railed against by a new low post count person who has yet to share his bonafides and posts with anonymity behind a handle known as Medical Truth.

    I would hope that he shows some deference and respect to the good doctor since Bruce does a massive amount of work to keep folks flying, including walking the halls of FAA-Washington and Capitol Hill convincing the folks that need convincing to do good things for pilots and not do stupid things agains Pilots.

    MedicalTruth, if you wish to be part of our community, you are welcome to be here... but bashing our well respected AME’s is a very bad start.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
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  20. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    There's lots of disparagement here and the "new poster" appears to be the same previous banned "anonymous" poster and he is asserting statements that I don't believe Dr. Bruce has ever said. Nearly the first thing Dr. B asks is whether there is proof that you were at a low BAC. That means you specifically had a chemical test that showed a low BAC for the FAA will assume in the absence of such, that you potentially had a high one and may exhibit tolerance. There's a lot of obfuscation on the issue here with no purpose other than to cast yet further aspersions against HIMS and Dr. B.
     
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  21. lbfjrmd

    lbfjrmd Pre-takeoff checklist

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    yes an AME can issue. many may. many may defer 1st timers.
     
  22. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Then what is your dog in this hunt?
     
  23. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    Well if the information was ambiguous before the update on 9/27/17, then anything posted on here before that was an interpretation.
     
  24. patlaw

    patlaw Filing Flight Plan

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    Here is a case that readers of this thread may find interesting.
     
  25. Volzalum

    Volzalum Pre-Flight

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    For my case, No - The Police did not seize my license, and there was no motor vehicle action against it.
     
  26. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

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    ok - you've got your answers . . . they are what you expected.

    As I said -the issue is not what happened - its what you can prove. Good luck. If you can provide documentation to the FAA that shows the date of the offense, and no other DUI's on your driving record, along with what your BAC was . . .you'll be good.
     
  27. patlaw

    patlaw Filing Flight Plan

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    @Volzalum, let us know how it turns out. This thread has been interesting.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017