Alabama Crash claims 4

My condolences :(

Wx was likely a factor in this one, but I don't like to speculate. Nasty line of storms moving through the region today.
 
Fearless Tower said:
210s may be beefy, but Scott Crossfield demonstrated they are no match for significant convective activity.
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It's amazing how powerful mother nature can be. In reading many of the NTSB reports I'm in total awe of the many dead pilots who have tested her wrath. I was on a 737 going into CO Springs with Cb's well within a 40 mile range and we were getting tossed around like a pit bull playing with a rag doll.
 
Pretty much says it all...

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Cpt_Kirk said:
I just dont understand it... unless he had no weather capability on board. Even then, there's a load of info out there.
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You have eyeballs. Never, ever fly into real IFR (AKA limited visibility) conditions when there is convective stuff around. You might find some of it.
 
@WBI Flyer sorry for your loss.

Looking at the debris, the radar image from the time and the tracklog it sure looks like he flew into a bad cell and got tossed around and ripped apart. Sad day
 
Radar Contact said:
@WBI Flyer sorry for your loss.

Looking at the debris, the radar image from the time and the tracklog it sure looks like he flew into a bad cell and got tossed around and ripped apart. Sad day
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thank you all - to be clear, I have friends and family who were close to this family. I was not. This is an unbelievable tragedy for all involved. - beautiful family coming home from Spring break - ugh.
 
This resembles several other accidents that were caused by the use of NEXRAD radar in the airplane for penetrating a line of thunderstorms. The FAA and NTSB have both released bulletins on using XM and ADS-B radar for "tactical" planning. Sometimes having too much information and relying on it is even more dangerous.
 
midwestpa24 said:
This resembles several other accidents that were caused by the use of NEXRAD radar in the airplane for penetrating a line of thunderstorms. The FAA and NTSB have both released bulletins on using XM and ADS-B radar for "tactical" planning. Sometimes having too much information and relying on it is even more dangerous.
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I love having it, but only use it to identify storm movement, likely "thinner" areas, etc. so I can pick the best places to go around convective stuff visually.
 
kyleb said:
I love having it, but only use it to identify storm movement, likely "thinner" areas, etc. so I can pick the best places to go around convective stuff visually.
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It is wonderful information to have, trust me. I hardly ever leave the pattern without it. The problem is pilots using it like real-time onboard radar, which it is not. The delay in the image has caused many deaths in the last few years. Thunderstorms can move across the ground 50-70 mph. The average delay through XM can be 5-60 minutes at times. A storm cell can cover a lot of ground in that amount of time. What the screen shows as clear and safe may actually be the heart of the storm.
 
On the flip side of things, I've used Nexrad to avoid ATC re-routing that would have put me in a bad situation. I don't care about the inconvenience it puts on the airliners, I wont accept a route if i can see that in about 30 minutes when i get to that point it'll be in bad weather. Really great tool for situational awareness, but definitely not for zig zagging the cells. Really love the animate feature on the GTN750. XM is a great tool when used properly
 
As sophisticated as we have become and given the technology we currently have we are still behind the weather curve. All predictions are a guess at best. Sadly, there are those who will get caught up in Mother Nature's wrath. Not much we can do to change that at the current time. It's kinda like standing on a golf course and taking your chances. There are still those who will willingly drive into flooded areas. Not much difference than flying into a storm.
 
midwestpa24 said:
It is wonderful information to have, trust me. I hardly ever leave the pattern without it. The problem is pilots using it like real-time onboard radar, which it is not. The delay in the image has caused many deaths in the last few years. Thunderstorms can move across the ground 50-70 mph. The average delay through XM can be 5-60 minutes at times. A storm cell can cover a lot of ground in that amount of time. What the screen shows as clear and safe may actually be the heart of the storm.
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I first join my club in 2012. I was flying from KAUS to KDTO. We had a 496 with and XM subscription.

I ate breakfast when there was a cell over KDFW.

I left KAUS around 10 AM. There was a bad cell south of KDFW. I thought it would move east and I could fly in behind it.

When I was abeam Killeen, I asked ATC (I was on FF) how bad the weather was at KDFW. The cell was still appearing on the 496. The weather report said clear.

My XM weather was not refreshing.

XM can have a delay of well over 60 minutes. More like 3 hours.

When able, talk to ATC.



I want to hear what ATC was saying to this aircraft.

I hope to never have this happen to me or anyone, but I want to hear what was said if anyone has the ability to put in on this thread. It will be hard to hear knowing what happened.
 
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Thunderstorms scare me more than anything else in aviation, with ice second. I know that is very typical, but I see ice as far more predictable (or as far as weather can be predictable). The idea of embedded thunderstorms just scares me.

My condolences to the families and friends.
 
Years ago flying cancelled checks in a 210 I got caught in a couple embedded level 4. I thought that was going to be my last flight. The controller gave me a 2000 ft block of airspace, then it turned into just do your best, no one else is in the area.

It was so rough that my car keys came out of the pocket of my flight bag and lodged in the ear piece of my sunglasses. I could not let go of the controls to remove them. It didn't matter because a minute later my headset and sunglasses departed. My flight bag, the only thing not strapped down, was flying all over the place.

I never went inverted, but there were several times I was 90 degrees and falling. I hit my head on the yoke a few times, as well as the side window. The stall horn was sounding pretty much continuously no matter what my indicated air speed was. I am not sure if I was along for the ride for 5 minutes or 5 hours, but pretty sure it was only about 30 minutes.

The controller was really glad to hear from me when I was finally able to get my headset back on. I quit that job several times during the ride, only problem was I still had to get back to the airport where my truck was parked.
 
Loveair said:
Scratching my head on this one!
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It goes back to the old saying that people who die in weather related aviation accidents are usually buried on clear days.

The point being that all they had to do was wait for VFR weather, and instead, they tried to push through and died.
 
Very sad. Hindsight is always 20/20, so I hate to second guess the PIC's decision. We all have likely pushed things a little more than we should have at one time or another, but got lucky and made it through. Kentucky was playing UNC in Memphis yesterday. They may have been trying to make it to the game before heading home to the Jackson area.
 
Stingray Don said:
Pretty much says it all...

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.

I don't think 20/20 hindsight is needed to see what a poor decision this was. Why do pilots keep doing this? He bet his family's lives on his ability to fly through a front that had significant convective activity.

I know it's not cool to pass judgement on the departed, but Jeezus, this is one that didn't have to happen.

.

somorris said:
Very sad. Hindsight is always 20/20, so I hate to second guess the PIC's decision. We all have likely pushed things a little more than we should have at one time or another, but got lucky and made it through. Kentucky was playing UNC in Memphis yesterday. They may have been trying to make it to the game before heading home to the Jackson area.
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I know. Probably similar to Scott Crossfield, the pilot thought he could make it through because he had flown through worse looking before. It is sad, but a good lesson for all of us. Better to stop a while and let the storm blow through.
 
Rcmutz said:
He just needed to land short and let is pass, or perhaps deviate around to the north and come back in behind it.

So sad.
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that thing was one hell of a nasty storm. He should have put the plane down when he saw that wall heading his way. You would need turbines to climb over that line.
 
Bobanna said:
It will probably be good VFR when they're burried....there's a lesson in that. Sad and unfortunate, may they rest in peace.
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The true quote is the NTSB investigators arriving the next day always have great weather (people are usually buried 3 days later).

Edit: Or you could modify it to read, "The weather is always great when the POA starts investigating.":(
 
Sorry for the personal loss.

Went hunting to see if there was a thread on this one, because I got it on pretty good authority today that the pilot DID get a weather brief and knew there were level 5 cells along the route of flight...

And I just sit here in the usual shock wondering... why. Why push weather like that?

It's been proven so many times to be a killer.

Just don't. Please. I don't know what else to do other than beg when I see this bad decision happen ... again.
 
One would think there are CFIIs out there teaching that it is good judgement to just go for it. It's just not that hard to set it down somewhere until it blows through. I just hate reading about these.
 
midcap said:
that thing was one hell of a nasty storm. He should have put the plane down when he saw that wall heading his way. You would need turbines to climb over that line.
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And even then there's no guarantee. Some of these fronts produce nasty convection with echo tops extending into FL480-500.
 
Ryanb said:
And even then there's no guarantee. Some of these fronts produce nasty convection with echo tops extending into FL480-500.
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I wouldn't doubt if that one was that tall. Tonight I was looking at FlightAware, there was a flight from MSY to LUV that was diverted over the Gulf because we have a squall line moving in. That line tonight is no where's near the size of the one that took out the Cesssna, scary stuff.
 
Zeldman said:
Years ago flying cancelled checks in a 210 I got caught in a couple embedded level 4. I thought that was going to be my last flight. The controller gave me a 2000 ft block of airspace, then it turned into just do your best, no one else is in the area.

It was so rough that my car keys came out of the pocket of my flight bag and lodged in the ear piece of my sunglasses. I could not let go of the controls to remove them. It didn't matter because a minute later my headset and sunglasses departed. My flight bag, the only thing not strapped down, was flying all over the place.

I never went inverted, but there were several times I was 90 degrees and falling. I hit my head on the yoke a few times, as well as the side window. The stall horn was sounding pretty much continuously no matter what my indicated air speed was. I am not sure if I was along for the ride for 5 minutes or 5 hours, but pretty sure it was only about 30 minutes.

The controller was really glad to hear from me when I was finally able to get my headset back on. I quit that job several times during the ride, only problem was I still had to get back to the airport where my truck was parked.
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That sounds intense. I had some..uhhh...learning experiences with thunderstorms hauling freight in tired old PA-31's without radar or any other kind of onboard WX, but nothing that crazy.
 
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