Airventure -- New Home

Tom-D said:
Place the pressure where it belongs, on the EAA wallet.

start the boycott movement.

when they see they are hurting maybe the EAA will get the balls to tell the FAA "NO"

then this notice goes out the pressure moves up a notch.

Notam

Due to the cost of FAA control of the airspace there will be no Air Venture in 2014.

Let the FAA take the bad press, see how much money they will ask for in 2015.
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Little hint for you.....considering the current public view of GA in this country, the bad press will 'hit' EAA for worse than the FAA. The FAA will probably get it's overall public image boosted.
 
The other issue with relocating AIRVENTURE is support of the community. While it might work in Iowa or some other midwest places, I have great fear that we'd never have the support in places like central Texas or California.

Can't tell you the number of good stories I've had with the locals bending over backwards to help ups while we were in Oshkosh.
 
EAA lists 19mil worth of buildings and 17mil of leasehold improvement on their balance sheet. The expenses listed for airventure are about 9mil, the income from admissions is about 9mil as well. To move the convention to a different location to escape a 1/2mil budget item is a dumb idea.
 
moonshine said:
I personally think that the thread is very pointless

However, from the experience of picking a location for a similar thing overseas - pic the location that's reasonable geographically and where the local government is willing to go an extra mile to provide for and accommodate the venture.
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Concur that the thread is pointless.

As for another country, where are you going to go? The FAA is striving to be as restrictive and expensive as other countries - as it is, we're still better than most in the world. Forget Europe. Canada has privatized ATC, so your fees will be at least as much as the FAA supplement. Mexico really isn't an option (and those that go would face US CBP searches on the way back, see the other thread on that topic.) Finally, the US has pretty tight controls on leaving the US - you have to have their permission (eAPIS) before leaving and entering the US.

In other words, FAA knows it has EAA over a barrel.

iflyforfun said:
+1 - this is what I've been gripping to EAA about

I wouldn't cancel the event. Go ahead and have it. If the FAA doesn't provide controllers and starts closing the airspace, so be it. We may suffer this year, but it would really put the pressure on the government and the FAA. Imagine the outrage in Oshkosh when the government kills the golden goose and all those businesses miss their annual AirVenture bonus.
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THe administration isn't going to care about economic impact to Wisconsin. Especially with Scott Walker as governor. Walker represents a political position that advocates smaller government - the FAA is playing exactly the kind of game that Walker's associates advocate.
 
Just give in, pay up, benevolent monopolies never raise their price.:lol:
 
wsuffa said:
Concur that the thread is pointless.

As for another country, where are you going to go? The FAA is striving to be as restrictive and expensive as other countries - as it is, we're still better than most in the world. Forget Europe. Canada has privatized ATC, so your fees will be at least as much as the FAA supplement. Mexico really isn't an option (and those that go would face US CBP searches on the way back, see the other thread on that topic.) Finally, the US has pretty tight controls on leaving the US - you have to have their permission (eAPIS) before leaving and entering the US.
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I wasn't suggesting taking EAA out of the country.
Russian GA pilots have an annual fly-in and for the last few years the location was Yoshkar-Ola in Mari El. While exploring different options, local administration responses varied from "Aw crap.. Do you really have to come over here?" to "Sure... just try keep it safe". In Yoshkar-Ola the response was "We'd love to see you here, what can we do to help?"
 
The museum would fit nicely in the former B24 bomber plant at YIP, but you better act fast before it is gone.
 
weilke said:
EAA lists 19mil worth of buildings and 17mil of leasehold improvement on their balance sheet. The expenses listed for airventure are about 9mil, the income from admissions is about 9mil as well. To move the convention to a different location to escape a 1/2mil budget item is a dumb idea.
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That's about the numbers I recall from a few years ago. The EAA and the EAA Foundation get net about a million each on a $10M gross.
 
As pointless as I see this, I'll toss KGYI in the ring. Lots of space, very GA friendly, near a good size lake for water ops(not too far), centrally located, plenty of hotels nearby, some limited gambling nearby, lots of grass, even have a small UL type runway on the west side.

TX in general, and N Dallas area has always been very good to GA. Yes, it's hot. No, it's not that humid like Houston, but I can pretty much promise a good reception. I also think that Sun-N-Fun is badly miscast in FL as one of the most onerous GA locations ever, but what are they gonna do - leave?

I would, in a second.
 
wabower said:
PS: Some members of this forum have family members who were or are civil service employees. You would be well advised to avoid calling them parasites if the subject comes up in face-to-face conversations.
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You want to know why the FAA is now treating We, the People like servants? You want to know why the FAA, formerly our servant, is now our master?

It's because they have forgotten -- or have never been taught --their parasitic roots. Some how, some way, it's become "offensive" to call government what it is -- a parasite on society.

Whether this is a failure of our state-run education system, or simple blindness to reality caused by the fact that so many are dependent on government, the fact remains that government saps the productive members of society.

That is the definition of "parasitic". I'm sorry if you don't like reality, but dems da facts.
 
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moonshine said:
I personally think that the thread is very pointless

However, from the experience of picking a location for a similar thing overseas - pic the location that's reasonable geographically and where the local government is willing to go an extra mile to provide for and accommodate the venture.
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Hmmm... This opens up the idea of placing Airventure up for bids.

Let's say EAA announces a competition for it's new location? Let every depressed municipality that is saddled with a recently closed air base BID on getting Airventure in their communities. Get their Chambers of Commerce involved, and market the event nationwide.

Hell, it works for other businesses. Why not EAA?
 
I don't understand this thread at all. Why move away from Oshkosh? What's wrong with it, other than the Gulfstream-sized mosquitos? What, that you can't land a 747 on it? News flash, I don't go to Oshkosh to see 747's, I can do that at my local airport. Don't much care about the military iron (at least not the stuff currently in service) either. Oh, its nice to have them, but I certainly wouldn't move the whole shebang just to make room for them.

Yeah, the thing with the FAA sucks, but the fat lady hasn't yet sung, I doubt the EAA folks haven't pulled all the strings they could. They must have some pull with Govco (the guys from Wisconsin and their district), someone to go to bat with them against the FAA. And yeah, even if you move it the FAA will come back after the first midair, which will be on the first day of the first event dontcha know.
 
steingar said:
I don't understand this thread at all. Why move away from Oshkosh? What's wrong with it, other than the Gulfstream-sized mosquitos?
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Do try to keep up, doctor. The issue is Oshkosh's controlled airspace, and the FAA's ability to, well, control it. It has nothing to so with Oshkosh the town, per se, which we all love dearly.

One proposed solution, being discussed here, is to move the event to a large uncontrolled field. Another (better, in my opinion) is to petition to get rid of Class D airspace around OSH.

Both fixes are unlikely, but, hey, this is an internet forum, not the real world. :D
 
Jay Honeck said:
Do try to keep up, doctor. The issue is Oshkosh's controlled airspace, and the FAA's ability to, well, control it. It has nothing to so with Oshkosh the town, per se, which we all love dearly.

One proposed solution, being discussed here, is to move the event to a large uncontrolled field. Another (better, in my opinion) is to petition to get rid of Class D airspace around OSH.

Both fixes are unlikely, but, hey, this is an internet forum, not the real world. :D
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The minute you do the FAA will find a way in, no matter what. They aren't going to allow a bunch of hobbyist pilots to stage a giant fly-in and endanger the nearby public with the flaming debris of their midair collisions.

By the way, the Oshcosh control tower was scheduled for closure under the original sequestration, as was my own. Still doesn't matter. You need a waiver for the insurance, and you won't get a waiver without ATC.

Our best hope is that Congress wakes up and realizes the FAA is trying to become a taxation body, which they will not like. If they don't you can look for more, the precedent is set and the countdown to the end of GA has already begun. That's assuming it survives 2020.
 
steingar said:
The minute you do the FAA will find a way in, no matter what. They aren't going to allow a bunch of hobbyist pilots to stage a giant fly-in and endanger the nearby public with the flaming debris of their midair collisions.

By the way, the Oshcosh control tower was scheduled for closure under the original sequestration, as was my own. Still doesn't matter. You need a waiver for the insurance, and you won't get a waiver without ATC.

Our best hope is that Congress wakes up and realizes the FAA is trying to become a taxation body, which they will not like. If they don't you can look for more, the precedent is set and the countdown to the end of GA has already begun. That's assuming it survives 2020.
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Sadly, I concur.

Huh. So we're dependent on Congress making the right call. That's just not very inspiring.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Sadly, I concur.

Huh. So we're dependent on Congress making the right call. That's just not very inspiring.
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they've been making the "right" call wrt aviation user fees since at least the Clinton administration.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Huh. So we're dependent on Congress making the right call. That's just not very inspiring.
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They'll make the right call if they're on the side of bread with the butter, and they are. They've been holding off users fees in the decade I've been a pilot and no doubt longer. I think they'll nip this in the bud too. And I think the EAA did the right thing.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Do try to keep up, doctor. The issue is Oshkosh's controlled airspace, and the FAA's ability to, well, control it. It has nothing to so with Oshkosh the town, per se, which we all love dearly.

One proposed solution, being discussed here, is to move the event to a large uncontrolled field. Another (better, in my opinion) is to petition to get rid of Class D airspace around OSH.

Both fixes are unlikely, but, hey, this is an internet forum, not the real world. :D
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I have said in other threads... The revolution starts the day folks start ignoring all the petty laws, en masse.

FAA says you can't do this, and you can't do that... And for now, they're right. Because the fabric of society is that we all believe it.

10,000 airplanes show up somewhere against the FAA's "rules", there wouldn't be enough LEO to arrest everyone.

Whether such "civil disobedience" starts in my lifetime or the next... remains to be seen. The People won't put up with things like using laws to enact double taxation like this, for long.

I doubt the pilot community has the balls to be the ones to start it.
 
FAA has a budget. The budget is suppose to include the full and complete operation of the Marion's air traffic system. Other FAA activities are supposed to be lower priority. Oshkosh is part of the completely normal, annual, traffic in this country. Period.
 
Discussion is good regardless of the practicality of the topic.
 
denverpilot said:
I doubt the pilot community has the balls to be the ones to start it.
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Boy, THAT'S for sure. Just look at the way even pilots on this group reflexively defend the bloated, corrupt, non-responsive federal government.

If even this group has been assimilated by the collective, there is little hope of the general public ever looking up from watching Honey Boo Boo long enough to disobey.
 
N2124v said:
Discussion is good regardless of the practicality of the topic.
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I'll count you in as a Coast to Coast AM listener. Art Bell and George Norre appreciate your enthusiasm for alien abduction talk radio. ;)
 
Say to my face and we'll see.

Jay Honeck said:
You want to know why the FAA is now treating We, the People like servants? You want to know why the FAA, formerly our servant, is now our master?

It's because they have forgotten -- or have never been taught --their parasitic roots. Some how, some way, it's become "offensive" to call government what it is -- a parasite on society.

Whether this is a failure of our state-run education system, or simple blindness to reality caused by the fact that so many are dependent on government, the fact remains that government saps the productive members of society.

That is the definition of "parasitic". I'm sorry if you don't like reality, but dems da facts.
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denverpilot said:
I'll count you in as a Coast to Coast AM listener. Art Bell and George Norre appreciate your enthusiasm for alien abduction talk radio. ;)
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Ah, some of the best laughs of my life listening to those guys while driving in west Texas at night....
 
Jay Honeck said:
"Parasite" is such an ugly word, bringing to mine tapeworm and trichinosis. How about "symbiotic life form"? Would that smooth your ruffled feathers? :D
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Hey, all of you, take this crap back to "pink shirts" and lets get some work done here.

And, oh English major, it is MIND, not mine (nor yours) :cheers:

By the way, Cyndi and I are coming up on the end of an idyllic honeymoon 2300 miles west of this whole silly argument



Jim
 

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Oshkosh belongs at Oshkosh. Running away solves nothing. Even with a huge FAA controller presence flying in to Airventure can be pretty darn dicey at times. Flying all those airplanes into an airport with no controllers is asking for a really increased body count.

If the EAA was to become so insane as to try and move Oshkosh to some uncontrolled field somewhere, they had better not move to within 150 miles of the Gulf or Atlantic coast during hurricane season. That wouldn't be as insane as moving Airventure away from KOSH, but it would be close.
 
How about KBRD?

No tower, huge runways for jets, lots of nearby lakes for floatplanes.

Small tourist town very nearby with a few nice resorts with rooms + motels in town (Cragun's, Madden's, Breezy Point)), Moreys airstrip (22Y) nearby where you can fly in and buy fresh seafood for your cookout (LOL), Staples (KSAZ) where the cheap avgas is, and a good number of other small airports nearby for people to scared (or wise) to fly into the main event.
 
Brad Z said:
Move it to Port Aransas TX... That will give Jay Honeck something else to ***** about...
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LoL, Jay don't *****. He is a great guy with a well experienced opinion based on facts and hard knocks!

Keep on Jay!


Sent from my iPhone using An APP that doesn't pay me to advertise for them.
 
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weirdjim said:
Hey, all of you, take this crap back to "pink shirts" and lets get some work done here.

And, oh English major, it is MIND, not mine (nor yours) :cheers:

By the way, Cyndi and I are coming up on the end of an idyllic honeymoon 2300 miles west of this whole silly argument



Jim
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You are STILL on your freaking honeymoon? Didn't you get married, like, 8 months ago?

Dag-blasted lovebirds, anyway... :D

Speaking of misspelling, YOU try typing a post on your phone sometime, with bifocals. You might mine it, too. lol
 
mikea said:
The first EAA convention was at BUU Burlington, WI.

The town that had the pattern changed to right traffic to "avoid overflying city" told EAA they didn't their kind so they moved to Oshkosh.
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Nuh-uh. The first several (1953-1958) EAA fly-in and conventions were at my home field, KMWC, in those days known as Milwaukee Curtiss-Wright Field and later changed to Lawrence J. Timmerman Field, named after a long-time county supervisor who had absolutely nothing to do with aviation. After a few years it moved to Rockford and was there from 1959-1969, moving to Oshkosh in 1970. KBUU, like many municipal airports, has the traffic pattern arranged so that it's not right over the city.

kyleb said:
Insurance, or the lack thereof, would prohibit going to uncontrolled airspace. There are enough dicey situations *with* ATC help. It would be chaos without it.
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The tower at KOSH was scheduled to close due to the sequester anyway, so I don't know what moving would do for us - No matter what, there will be a tower wherever Airventure moves to for the duration of the event. Hell, even KFLD gets a temporary tower during Airventure and it's only a relief field.

wabower said:
So the plan is that everybody will turn off their transponders to keep the location a secret? Maybe call it Stealth-kosh?;)
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Uhhhh... You mean like we already do, as required by the NOTAM? ;)

steingar said:
I don't understand this thread at all. Why move away from Oshkosh? What's wrong with it, other than the Gulfstream-sized mosquitos? What, that you can't land a 747 on it?
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What are you talking about? You *can* land a 747 on it. Hell, the dreamlifter was there a few years ago, and the following year the A380 was there. C-5's frequently appear as well. I don't think there's anything you can't land at Oshkosh. Maybe a 707, I hear they were really terrible runway hogs, but 18/36 is 8,000'.

So, bottom line - There is no reason to move. Period. The FAA will be there, wherever there happens to be, no matter what kind of airspace it has the rest of the year.

Now, to keep Jim happy - I'd say that if it were to move, the best way to find a location would be to start at Kansas City and spiral outward. KC is pretty much smack in between the population center and the geographic center of the CONUS. Take the first field that's got at least two non-intersecting runways and a decent sized city around it, but is at least 50nm out of town to avoid having to tangle with airliners and Bravo airspace too. Maybe if they ever close McConnell AFB... Then we could have the biggest aviation event in the Air Capital!
 
Sorry, I thought some of the planes flew into OSH from other locations, didn't know they were all local. I'll be sure to turn my TXP off before I leave Dallas just to be sure the notam-cops don't lock me up with Patty.:p



flyingcheesehead said:
Nuh-uh. The first several (1953-1958) EAA fly-in and conventions were at my home field, KMWC, in those days known as Milwaukee Curtiss-Wright Field and later changed to Lawrence J. Timmerman Field, named after a long-time county supervisor who had absolutely nothing to do with aviation. After a few years it moved to Rockford and was there from 1959-1969, moving to Oshkosh in 1970. KBUU, like many municipal airports, has the traffic pattern arranged so that it's not right over the city.



The tower at KOSH was scheduled to close due to the sequester anyway, so I don't know what moving would do for us - No matter what, there will be a tower wherever Airventure moves to for the duration of the event. Hell, even KFLD gets a temporary tower during Airventure and it's only a relief field.



Uhhhh... You mean like we already do, as required by the NOTAM? ;)



What are you talking about? You *can* land a 747 on it. Hell, the dreamlifter was there a few years ago, and the following year the A380 was there. C-5's frequently appear as well. I don't think there's anything you can't land at Oshkosh. Maybe a 707, I hear they were really terrible runway hogs, but 18/36 is 8,000'.

So, bottom line - There is no reason to move. Period. The FAA will be there, wherever there happens to be, no matter what kind of airspace it has the rest of the year.

Now, to keep Jim happy - I'd say that if it were to move, the best way to find a location would be to start at Kansas City and spiral outward. KC is pretty much smack in between the population center and the geographic center of the CONUS. Take the first field that's got at least two non-intersecting runways and a decent sized city around it, but is at least 50nm out of town to avoid having to tangle with airliners and Bravo airspace too. Maybe if they ever close McConnell AFB... Then we could have the biggest aviation event in the Air Capital!
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Since the issue with being taxed for the control tower is a federal one - not a local one - moving the event makes absolutely zero sense and accomplishes absolutely nothing. What am I missing here? The FAA will follow the event to any airport...
 
Jay Honeck said:
You are STILL on your freaking honeymoon? Didn't you get married, like, 8 months ago?
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Like, 4 months ago on the 12th of February, right in the middle of the freakin' semester. Had to rush back for the next week's class & just finished up a couple of weeks ago. I wish we didn't have to go back until the week before Fall semester, but there are three conventions I'm due at between now and then ... Baghdad on the Winnebago being one of them.

Jim
 
Airventure seems to be held at a bad time of the year - before the bulk of convective weather has subsided. Should be held in April, May, September or October. June, July, and August are worst.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Airventure seems to be held at a bad time of the year - before the bulk of convective weather has subsided. Should be held in April, May, September or October. June, July, and August are worst.
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Agree that the summer weather is tough, but the event has to be in the summer or it'll be basically impossible for anyone in grade school or college to attend.
 
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