Airport Security is Killing Us

The terrorists haven't had to do anything in over a decade because they don't have to. They're getting us to do ourselves which is far more damaging than what they could pull off.
Possibly the most ignorant comment I have heard on airport security NEXT to the old lady observed at DCA telling the TSA what a great job they were doing protecting us.

There are alot of reasons we have not seen another large scale successful terrorist attack. Some classified, some not. Some we know, some we don't, but I can say with a high degree of certainty, your suggested reason is not one of them.
 
That may be true, but it is much more difficult to screen the dangerous people than the dangerous things.

That is true, but it is also what must be done. Israel does it very well, but over here it's called "profiling", which is a dirty word.

I know plenty of people who can kill someone with their bare hands. Do we confiscate hands as dangerous objects?
 
I reckon if we had a bunch of intimidating fellas standing around with MP5s, people wouldn't try as much.

I remember coming through customs in Frankfurt am Main, and there to greet me behind the particularly bored-looking passport scanner guy was an intimidating guard with an MP5.

I honestly feel like security hasn't been ramped up rather just made more complicated. I mean, the only difference I notice between the old security and the TSA is that I need to remove my shoes. Periodically, someone comes around to swab my hands with a cloth. They put it in a machine and it tells them how many times I've masturbated today. Anything less than three, and you can't get on the plane.

On the other hand, the lines are slow because the majority of the line is populated by idiot mouth-breathers who didn't see the 80, large-print signs plastered all around the waiting area for the TSA lines indicating what you can and can't have, what you need to remove, and how to proceed through the line. Every fourth person does something drastically stupid that could have been prevented if they had simply read the sign instead of complaining about all the rules they have to follow now. Since you forgot to remove your shoes, we have to wait an extra five minutes for you to do so, since you have a shoe with fifty five laces on it and back problems. Repeat ad nauseam.

I know it's there to make people feel safe, but sometimes it's just a little overboard.
 
Possibly the most ignorant comment I have heard on airport security NEXT to the old lady observed at DCA telling the TSA what a great job they were doing protecting us.

There are alot of reasons we have not seen another large scale successful terrorist attack. Some classified, some not. Some we know, some we don't, but I can say with a high degree of certainty, your suggested reason is not one of them.

what price liberty? what price dignity?

I say the price we pay for the security theater, in dollars and wasted effort (which could be put to productive use elsewhere), in loss of liberty and dignity, is not appropriate for the risk.

Of course, in a public forum we cannot make use of sensitive information to make or dispute points.
 
I'd have to agree.

When DHS was created, I supported the idea (despite the Eastern-block-sounding name) ONLY to fix the problem of problems of interagency communications brought to light leading up to 9/11/01. Of course, that was foolish, because history shows that if you give any government agency an inch, they will take a mile. I never supported a government-run TSA, and believed that the airlines were doing fine with their own security.

Unfortunately, the sheeple think that the TSA is the ONLY solution to their flying safety, regardless of the pedophile-attracting invasiveness of their searches, and the overreach of the power-hungry high school dropouts wearing uniforms.
Stan - You really undercut your message when you use terms like this. My first thought was to stop reading as soon as I encountered 'sheeple'.
 
You write a contract that if the contractor is found in violation of standards, the contract is void. If the contract is with the local or state government, then the state public records laws apply.
It's already that way. Have YOU seen it done? Performance-based contracts were all the rage in the Reagan administration.
Further, the problem with TSA is that massive federal bureaucracies are not responsive to the customer. They could not care less what we think of them and the manner in which they do their work. Complaints are useless, and the organization is just too big to have an effect on.
You would replace it with a massive private bureaucracy. I think SNL said it best -- "We're the Phone Company. We don't care. We don't have to." -- before the evil government broke up AT&T's monopoly.
BTW, if you really think federal civil service rules allow incompetent people to be fired (in the real world, not theoretically), then I suspect you're part of the problem, not the solution. You clearly are very familiar with the federal space, and you should also know that there are a tremendous number of people in the fed space who have no idea that they are doing, and don't care.
Well, I've seen it happen, and I do live in the real world. You, on the other hand, are speaking hypotheticals.

No, I'm not part of the problem just because I disagree with you. You just don't understand what the problem really is. Hint: it's not a problem with TSA. Try to figure out what the purpose of TSA really is, and you'll figure out that it's doing that OK. It's not about real security....and neither was the previous airline situation. The government vs. private thing is just a big red herring.
 
Tuck the FSA. Billions spent on complete window dressing. What a joke. Given these distressed economic times I suppose it can be argued that there are so many more walmart applicants gainfully employed, now that us taxpayers are footing the bill.

Most of the TSA guys I've encountered wouldn't cut the mustard for Wal-Mart greeter.
 
what price liberty? what price dignity?

I say the price we pay for the security theater, in dollars and wasted effort (which could be put to productive use elsewhere), in loss of liberty and dignity, is not appropriate for the risk.

Of course, in a public forum we cannot make use of sensitive information to make or dispute points.
I never said the TSA was effective or good bang for the buck. The TSA is a bunch of overzealous goons who really don't understand how to effectively counter terrorism.

I was simply addressing an ignorant comment that implied the pain of dealing with the TSA was part of the enemy's plan.
 
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On the local news radio this morning they said that if you are flying as a passenger on a commercial carrier out of DFW or DAL today you need to show up at the airport at least 2.5 hours before your flight in order to get through security in time to board your plane.

nunfrisk.jpg
 
On the local news radio this morning they said that if you are flying as a passenger on a commercial carrier out of DFW or DAL today you need to show up at the airport at least 2.5 hours before your flight in order to get through security in time to board your plane.
I don't buy it.....doesn't AMR have like at least 80% of the market share at DFW???

If I was flying out of DFW, I sure wouldn't be worrying about my flight leaving on time:no:
 
TSA serves no purpose, ask a convict what knowledge they have about making weapons from everyday items. Lets look the the plain old pen, but you can't have toe nails
Clippers or a nail file. When you travel international and you buy duty free, they give it to you right there in the jet way, empty that bottle of whiskey, break it, you have enough sharp object for a whole group. How many restaurants inside security have steak knives on thier table, a lot. TSA is for perception, if anyone wanted to to harm to a flight, they very easily can. The government still has the mindset that terrorists are going to use standard storerooms typical weapons. These guys train and think of new ways to beat the system, fortunately the underweark bomber didn't work, but do you think the government would have ever though that as a possibility?

The other part is that the screeners have a whole 2 weeks training. The hiring standards are garbage. My job I needed a full thorough background investigation, the type where a guy shows up and starts talking to your neighbors and co workers, they don't do that with TSA, that is why they have the percentage of degenerates they do.
 
On the local news radio this morning they said that if you are flying as a passenger on a commercial carrier out of DFW or DAL today you need to show up at the airport at least 2.5 hours before your flight in order to get through security in time to board your plane.

They were suggesting 2 hours last Friday. I breezed through with Precheck. :lol:

I don't buy it.....doesn't AMR have like at least 80% of the market share at DFW???

If I was flying out of DFW, I sure wouldn't be worrying about my flight leaving on time:no:

The problem with DFW is the configuration. There is no centralized security - it's spread amongst 4-5 screening stations in each terminal, each of which has only 2-3 lanes. Given how many "elite" travelers there are for AA out of there, and the lousy configuration, it can take quite some time to get through. Even if you have the ability to use TSA's expedited screening.

AA has much improved the on-time performance since the tenative deal was struck with pilots. The MadDogs are still unreliable & subject to maintenance, though.... :( (Last Friday the MD80 I was on had an inop heater in the baggage area.... even though it was noted in all the paperwork, someone on the ground crew loaded live animals in there, resulting in our returning to the gate and taking an additional 45 minute delay in order for the animals to be removed and the plane to take on more fuel).
 
Who has the bigger vested interest in airport security? The airline with multimillion dollar planes and its reputation at risk? Or a govt bureaucrat?

I will never forgive Bush (who I admire) for creating the TSA...and DHS, for that matter.
I don't particularly admire him, but it wasn't just he who created it. The entire Washington gang got together on that one, either so they could appear tough on terrorism or just out of fear and ignorance.

And to an earlier point, I'm scared by how many people actually say that they feel safer with all the "security" in the airports, as long as it's keeping them safe.

All it's really doing is keeping the elephants out of the airports. I mean, there hasn't been a single elephant rampaging through the airports since the TSA took control! That proves they're effective, right?
 
It's already that way. Have YOU seen it done? Performance-based contracts were all the rage in the Reagan administration.
Not at the federal level, which is why I said and reiterated that the contracts must be at the state or local level, where there is (or can be) accountability.
You would replace it with a massive private bureaucracy. I think SNL said it best -- "We're the Phone Company. We don't care. We don't have to." -- before the evil government broke up AT&T's monopoly.
It's only a monopoly if the feds do it and issue one giant contract to LM, BAE, NorthrupGrumman, BAH, or such.
[qupte]No, I'm not part of the problem just because I disagree with you. You just don't understand what the problem really is. Hint: it's not a problem with TSA. Try to figure out what the purpose of TSA really is, and you'll figure out that it's doing that OK. It's not about real security....and neither was the previous airline situation. The government vs. private thing is just a big red herring.[/QUOTE]

Yes and no. Yes, the purpose of TSA is not security, but the appearance of security. But even if the intent becomes security, the present organization cannot be salvaged.
Further, to demolish the current monstrosity will not happen overnight. Like reform of the school system and disassembly of the teacher union monopoly, it has to be done incrementally.

Allowing states or airports to privatize demonstrates that yes, there IS another model that works, and the model has the opportunity to spread.
 
Perhaps there's an opportunity in all this.

How big of a passenger service can you run before needing TSA security? Maybe there's a niche between charter flight costs and airline inconvenience that might just be profitable.
 
Illinois. The last state left in the union, controlled by Chicago.

Roger that. If that's the only problem, I have a simple solution which involves never supporting Chicago or the state of Illinois by setting foot on their soil, paying any taxes to the state, counties, or cities within.

Over here in Virginia we know what's up. :yes:
 
Stan - You really undercut your message when you use terms like this. My first thought was to stop reading as soon as I encountered 'sheeple'.

If you discredit that there are and always have been "sheeple" in human history, you haven't read enough history books.

It's nothing to be emotionally bothered by. Bell curves are mathematical proof that there's 50% of us below average on the intelligence scale.

The politically powerful and intelligent human-monkeys know this, and use it to their advantage, daily. The "sheeple" don't even know they're being manipulated or aren't smart enough to do anything about it.

600,000 people had to die to bring you the nice Hollywood movie, Lincoln.

Most of them had to march with no food and about half with no shoes, for five years or so -- all the while being thrown by clueless Generals against fortified works, and dying for the other smarter human's power to remain intact -- or be destroyed -- depending on which side they were on.

We aren't going to the theaters watching "Davis" this month.

Sherman's march across Georgia to the Atlantic served zero military purpose. It was DESIGNED to manipulate emotions. As just one example.

Virtually all historians agree, slavery would have gone away on its own without the Civil War, as it did on much of the rest of the planet.

We make movies and claim it was all the work of one man.

For a more modern variant, people toss around the phrase, "Drink the Kool-Aid" with abandon today, completely forgetting that it took a small group of "sheeple" who died following a nut-bag, to bring that little slang phrase into our vocabulary. It's a parable about not blindly following any other human told to save the weaker-minded amongst us.

Modern slavery comes in the form of a loan. The smart people even broke the whole monetary fiat system worldwide a few years ago, and managed to figure out how to convince the dumber people to pay for their mistakes. They still get a few million bucks in bonuses each year, when they should be mowing my lawn and asking for my pocket change after screwing up that badly, if not sitting in a prison cell for breaking society's rules.

Easier for them to just convince the left side of the bell curve that they could fix all of it and vote for their own bailouts.

DHS costs more than it fixes, which means it's really just another form of slavery under the guise of being our Brother's Keeper.

No one is immune. There's suicide nets hung to catch people jumping from the building in China where the iPad I'm typing this message on, was built. Did I create the situation by being willing to buy it, or were there more powerful people than I convincing me I "needed" an iPad here, and powerful people there making sure the factory workers never can escape?

Hard to say... But denying that there are sheeple in the world isn't going to change it.
 
If I could sign a paper that I will take my chances with "terrorism" I would, just to get ride of TSA, the patriot act, dumb ass wars and all the nice taxes they bring.

I think the "terrorist" is the best invention on the 21st century! Anyone could be one, if you question the gov't chances are you are one and because there always hiding under our beds it freaks people out enough that they will foolishly vote or anything that "protects" us from "them".

It's like the military industrial complexes' boogie man for grown ups.
 
If I could sign a paper that I will take my chances with "terrorism" I would, just to get ride of TSA, the patriot act, dumb ass wars and all the nice taxes they bring.

I think the "terrorist" is the best invention on the 21st century! Anyone could be one, if you question the gov't chances are you are one and because there always hiding under our beds it freaks people out enough that they will foolishly vote or anything that "protects" us from "them".

It's like the military industrial complexes' boogie man for grown ups.

The War on Terror is perfect because it will never be declared over.
 
I think the "terrorist" is the best invention on the 21st century! Anyone could be one, if you question the gov't chances are you are one and because there always hiding under our beds it freaks people out enough that they will foolishly vote or anything that "protects" us from "them".

It's like the military industrial complexes' boogie man for grown ups.
You sound like the average American Joe who has ZERO clue as to the cost of freedom in this country.

As long as you aren't the one in harm's way, it is no sweat off your back!

Let me tell you something: I knew folks on COLE. In fact, if it wasn't for a last minute change of schedule/twist of fate, that would have been MY ship that took the hit in Aden. I remember Beirut, Khobar Towers, Lockerbie and the numerous airline hijackings that were going on in the 80's.

I can tell you from first hand experience that terrorism is not some made-up 'boogie-man'.

Don't confuse the ineptitude of a poorly run government organization with the very real legitimate threat that is out there.
 
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Don't confuse the ineptitude of a poorly run government organization with the very real legitimate threat that is out there.


There are threats out there. no doubt...:no:..

Years back the guv would send out stealth hit teams to neutrulize them, quietly.... Then later administrations deemed that as inhumane and dissolved those hit teams.................. and the rest is history..:yes::mad::(
 
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You sound like the average American Joe who has ZERO clue as to the cost of freedom in this country.

As long as you aren't the one in harm's way, it is no sweat off your back!

Let me tell you something: I knew folks on COLE. In fact, if it wasn't for a last minute change of schedule/twist of fate, that would have been MY ship that took the hit in Aden. I remember Beirut, Khobar Towers, Lockerbie and the numerous airline hijackings that were going on in the 80's.

I can tell you from first hand experience that terrorism is not some made-up 'boogie-man'.

Don't confuse the ineptitude of a poorly run government organization with the very real legitimate threat that is out there.

Oh don't give me that cost of freedoms crap, if it wasn't for our medelling we wouldn't have half of these guys trying to blow holes in our ships.

I've put myself in harms way IN THIS COUNTRY to HELP others, so that chest beating line doesnt cut it for me, save that for impressing the soft shoed type.

End of the day, I'll take my chances, I'm more concerned about getting accidently shot by our small army of trigger happy cops,TSA,etc types then some goat farmer half way across the globe.

If the gov't (which is now a abomination from what the founding fathers built) would leave me out of it's chit show, don't need their food stamps, Obama phones, protection from terrorists, etc. Just deliver my mail, put out the fires and make sure there isn't a foreign fleet of my coast (I.e. give me the old America back).
 
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End of the day, I'll take my chances, I'm more concerned about getting accidently shot by our small army of trigger happy cops,TSA,etc types then some goat farmer half way across the globe.
Go for it....because all you care about is yourself.




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Go for it....because all you care about is yourself.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Oh really

EVERY CPL that I have made is gainfully employed now (most in AG), I follow up on them and I take personal responsibility for making a CPL, everyone of them is able to make a living flying.

Before my flight training I worked at a 401 C3, I brought over 30 people from unemployment to A+ requirements for computer techs.

I have made a diffrence in quite a few live (not including my time in the FD).

Yea buddy, I just worry about myself lol, why don't you got back to sucking the gov't tit....

I'll bleed myself dry for a worthy cause, I just don't see kicking some guys door half way across the globe a worthy cause, sorry.
 
Oh really

EVERY CPL that I have made is gainfully employed now (most in AG), I follow up on them and I take personal responsibility for making a CPL, everyone of them is able to make a living flying.

Before my flight training I worked at a 401 C3, I brought over 30 people from unemployment to A+ requirements for computer techs.

I have made a diffrence in quite a few live (not including my time in the FD).

Yea buddy, I just worry about myself lol, why don't you got back to sucking the gov't tit....

I'll bleed myself dry for a worthy cause, I just don't see kicking some guys door half way across the globe a worthy cause, sorry.
Oh yeah, you do stuff as long as its on YOUR terms.

I've got news for you....you can say you long for the 'old America' all you want, but I would bet cash money that if you were alive 100-200 years ago you'd be bitchin' about something the government was doing.

You may not like war in Iraq or the never ending fight in Afghanistan....I am not a big fan myself. But I have seen enough to know that the one thing W accomplished during his two terms was turning the war on AQ from a home game to an away game. As long as we aren't suffering for terror attacks here in the home front, it is really easy to say things like 'I'll take my chances, the government is just making it all up'. It is easy because you are insulated. You don't see the other side.

Again, I am not saying that is a reason to justify the TSA or even the DHS as they are currently being run, but to say we are better off taking our chances with nothing is rather short sighted and foolish.


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This is getting downright personal. No personal attacks, guys... If you're going to make personal comments or attacks, take it elsewhere (like off the board).
 
Ignoring all the poo-flinging in last 2 pages, I'd like to comment on how worthless TSA (And whole security) is.

I will start with something small. NY Subway. We have NYPD officers once in a while posted at entrances to some stations, where they will check your bags. According to them, the bag search is not mandatory, and if you do not submit to bag search, they will deny you entrance to subway. So, one day, I had more time on my hands, I came across this checkpoint. They pull random people and search their bags. I was "lucky" enough to be picked for the search. I declined, and told the officer this: "Respectfully, I value my privacy enough not to let you search my bag. I will use the entrance across the street to enter the system without being bothered". And I did. Nobody stopped me. Entrance across the street did not have cops.

Once in a while we have TSA agents with bomb sniffing equipment. They just stand there. I never seen any of them try to swab someone.

But back to airport security.

Before working on the job I am on, I did some ramp work in JFK. Their security test was laughable. While not security related, one of questions was this

"If you get lost in the airfield, and your car is not equipped with a radio, your actions should be:
A - Drive around, attempting to find your way back to terminal area.
B - Turn towards the tower and flash your high beams. Wait for police or airport workers to help you.
C - Run towards passing aircraft, flag it down, and ask captain how to get back to terminal area".

And yes, there were 2 people in the group who picked C. After some "suggestive coaching" they finally picked correct answer and were given driver privileges in airport.

Few years back, I had to do a computer job at Burbank airport. Being somewhat familiar with airport security procedures (worked in JFK), I made sure that an escort person would be available and clear to enter secure area. Burbank airport closes during the night and I scheduled my work for the night.

When I arrived and met my escort person, he propped 2 doors to tarmac with 2 bricks so I can go around the security fence and went to sleep for the night. I had all-access to tarmac, parked planes, and so on. It would be no effort to sabotage all those Southwest jets parked at gates overnight.

Morning came, airport opened, I was till running around working on point of sale equipment in all terminal restaurants. TSA agent who was told that I work "with restaurant" checked my laptop bag, but paid no attention to wireties, scissors, screwdriver, wirecutters and a box cutter. My flight out was from the same airport and right after I was done with work, with all my luggage, I got a simple nod from TSA agent that I can go through. No IDs or boarding passes were checked.

Another incident was in NY's LGA airport and Dallas' DFW. I had a conference to go to, with a coworker. Coworker got harassed for a tub of hair gel when he went through checkpoint. He left the tub there. Right before boarding the airplane, TSA announced a pre-boarding screening. My coworker was the only one "randomly" picked. Travel back was uneventful. But after I got home, unpacked, I found a set of boxcutter and replacement blades in my bag. They were mine, something I missed when I was packing for the flight originally.

So in the end, all this show of force is not increasing security, but makes us miserable. And this is how, slowly, terrorists win. We are losing our freedoms.
 
The real joke is calling those essentially untrained pat-down experts "officers" and giving them a badge...what a sick joke !!!
 
first post on here, but I have to chime in and say that yes... the security industrial complex has gotten out of control... on many levels it's a damper on aviation. The customer is hassled and dreads flying, the pilot and other crew is treated like a threat, and detained and delayed to his flight... the whole thing is inefficient and a waste of precious tax payer dollars.

If you allow the terrorists to terrorize you, then they win.

We need to be A LOT more careful of what gets into cargo holds and onto cargo carriers thru the back doors of airports, and a lot less concerned with granny, and captain bob at the TSA checkpoint... IF anyone were foolish enough to try to take over a jet today and hi-jack it, they'd likely find them selves dead before they had a chance to get into the cockpit.. they'd be mobbed by many able bodied passengers and even flight crew and rendered harmless.

just my $.02
 
Throw in some flames and demons and I think that's what hell must be like.

L'enfer, c'est les autres. (Hell is other people) - Jean-Paul Sarte

I love humanity, it's people I can't stand. - Linus
 
DHS, TSA, DEA, BATFE, FBI, NSA, CIA, etc...........

Government for government's sake. Welcome to the USSA.
 
Air travel out of KSAN this thanksgiving was down significantly over previous years. On what was supposed to be their busiest day, was noted by most on the T.V. interviews as being like any other day at the airport.

The news footage showed a empty looking terminal. Normally the lines are huge requiring people to get there three hours early on such so called travel days.

This has nothing to do with TSA, it is just that people decided to drive this year rather than fly.

-John
 
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