Airport approach and departure frequencies ?

Nova

Nova

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I'm a student pilot flying out of a towered class D airspace. I'm not hearing the callout for approach or departure just to the Tower by my instructor who has done all the radio work thus far. What is specifically done with those two entities / frequencies that is not done with just calling to the tower?
 
So, while the tower controls separation on the runway, “approach” and “departure” control separation in the “terminal area” airspace.

IFR traffic will talk to them, as well as anyone getting VFR “flight following” services. Unless you’re in Class C or Class B airspace, there is no requirement for VFR traffic to contact them.
 
rhkennerly said:
Have you asked your instructor?
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That's another story. Mine doesn't seem to like questions. I don't think the instructor likes the job anymore. Seriously thinking of making a change.
 
When you depart, the tower will tell you to contact Departure Control on the assigned frequency.

Your instructor is doing you a disservice by handling all the radio calls. I like my students to start making radio calls on lesson number two.
 
If you are flying VFR at Class D, you probably are not contacting departure or approach. It is not required and the tower typically does not coordinate VFR radar service at class D.

If you are using VFR radar service, the controller will direct you to contact the tower before you enter the Class D and typically terminate VFR radar service.
 
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Find your new instructor before you quit your present one.

You may find recruiting a new one harder than you think, and find yourself out of flying longer than you wish.

Talk to other students to help find one you will "fit with".
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
When you depart, the tower will tell you to contact Departure Control on the assigned frequency.

Your instructor is doing you a disservice by handling all the radio calls. I like my students to start making radio calls on lesson number two. I fly into and out of Class D underlying shelves of C and B and never get that instruction.
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I fly in and out of several Class D and never get that instruction - that includes situations with D underlying C and B shelves.

Some class D airports will coordinate with departure control at the pilots request and you will be given a transponder code, most don’t.
 
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First visualize that 3D upside down wedding cake layers diagram of D/C/B airspace.

In a generalized nutshell:

Outside of D/C/B airspace TRACON (AKA: Approach/Departure...which are really all the same controllers in the same facility) manage a layer of airspace from surface up to about 10,000' and roughly 30 mile radius surrounding C and B airports, CENTER controls all the other airspace between and above what TRACON does not cover in their bubbles.

With D airspace TOWER and TOWER alone provides air traffic services inside D airspace (there are local agreements with APPROACH in busier airspace but that is unknown to pilots)

Inside C/B both TOWER AND APPROACH provide air traffic services to C/B airspace. Usually APPROACH is lining up the airplanes and TOWER is managing the runways and takeoff/landing clearances. DEPARTURE takes over the plane pretty much as soon as they are wheels up and handed of.

You would be in contact with APPROACH/DEPARTURE if you are flying IFR or are VFR on receiving Radar Services (AKA: Flight Following)

If not on Flight Following flying VFR into a Delta you can contact TOWER directly be authorized to enter Delta Airspace. Flying VFR into Charlie or Bravo you would typically contact APPROACH first and they will coordinate your entry then hand you off to TOWER when appropriate if landing or coordinate your transition through C/B.

Who provides air traffic services to what airspace is critical to understand especially when you get into VFR Flight Following and authorization to enter Delta airspace debate which is whole nuther can of worms for another day.

And yeah...an instructor that does not like questions?...find another CFI cuz as a student pilot you be on the radios day one and should have noting BUT questions for the CFI!
 
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Nova said:
I'm a student pilot flying out of a towered class D airspace. I'm not hearing the callout for approach or departure just to the Tower by my instructor who has done all the radio work thus far. What is specifically done with those two entities / frequencies that is not done with just calling to the tower?
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Class D doesn't necessarily have an associated approach and departure control. If you're in a medium to large metro area, there probably is one associated with "the big airport", but there's plenty of towered airports that are farther away from bigger cities and the same services will be provided by a Center.

Also, definitely agree with everyone else that you need a better instructor. Questions are one of the big things they're there for. That's their job, and the reason you are paying them!
 
Shawn said:
First visualize that 3D upside down wedding cake layers diagram of D/C/B airspace.

In a generalized nutshell:

Outside of D/C/B airspace TRACON (AKA: Approach/Departure...which are really all the same controllers in the same facility) manage a layer of airspace from surface up to about 10,000' and roughly 30 mile radius surrounding C and B airports, CENTER controls all the other airspace between and above what TRACON does not cover in their bubbles.

With D airspace TOWER and TOWER alone provides air traffic services inside D airspace (there are local agreements with APPROACH in busier airspace but that is unknown to pilots)

Inside C/B both TOWER AND APPROACH provide air traffic services to C/B airspace. Usually APPROACH is lining up the airplanes and TOWER is managing the runways and takeoff/landing clearances. DEPARTURE takes over the plane pretty much as soon as they are wheels up and handed of.

You would be in contact with APPROACH/DEPARTURE if you are flying IFR or are VFR on receiving Radar Services (AKA: Flight Following)

If not on Flight Following flying VFR into a Delta you can contact TOWER directly be authorized to enter Delta Airspace. Flying VFR into Charlie or Bravo you would typically contact APPROACH first and they will coordinate your entry then hand you off to TOWER when appropriate if landing or coordinate your transition through C/B.

Who provides air traffic services to what airspace is critical to understand especially when you get into VFR Flight Following and authorization to enter Delta airspace debate which is whole nuther can of worms for another day.

And yeah...an instructor that does not like questions?...find another CFI cuz as a student pilot you be on the radios day one and should have noting BUT questions for the CFI!
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Thanks for the details I appreciate your time. Yes I have a lot of questions!! Time to move on. It sucks. It’s suppose to be an exciting time and that’s not the way it feels. I learn a little by asking questions. And in doing so you’d think the instructor would like that as it help the instructor see where the students head is. Very frustrating I don’t have a lot of options where I am.
 
Nova said:
I'm a student pilot flying out of a towered class D airspace. I'm not hearing the callout for approach or departure just to the Tower by my instructor who has done all the radio work thus far. What is specifically done with those two entities / frequencies that is not done with just calling to the tower?
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Personally, I would’ve been motivated to find that answer on my own, like via Google or a host of other resources before I asked in this forum. Sharing with other pilots that you don’t have the initiative to ask your CFI or change your CFI doesn’t show the attitude of a pilot in command. Take charge and pilot your journey. This place is a great source to ask experience related stuff, but the basics other pilots expect you to be able to study on your own. If you bother to read this, I hope you take it in the spirit it was written in.

A good pilot is always learning!
 
Nova said:
I'm a student pilot flying out of a towered class D airspace. I'm not hearing the callout for approach or departure just to the Tower by my instructor who has done all the radio work thus far. What is specifically done with those two entities / frequencies that is not done with just calling to the tower?
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Aviate, navigate, communicate. Communicate is priority 3 for a reason. How far are you into this? How many hours? I applaud your quest for knowledge. But maybe, I say again ‘maybe’ you are asking so many questions you are wearing him out. I dunno, maybe he’s not a good instructor, but maybe you should be thinking a little more about aviating right now and getting to communicating a little later.
 
Clip4 said:
If you are flying VFR at Class D, you probably are not contacting departure or approach. It is not required and the tower typically does not coordinate VFR radar service at class D.
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I have found that to vary a lot geographically. Everything from assigning a squawk automatically to coordinating with TRACON on request to not even assigning a squawk on request.
 
didn’t mean to be snarky, but that is an unprofessional (not to mention unproductive) relationship you have with your CFI. It’s your dough. It’s your time. It’s his job to answer questions & teach. You are being cheated.

But, to answer your question, most students get exposed to other ATC radio services like enroute, approach, &, sometimes, departure while on cross countries while participating in Flight Following. Instructing out of a B or C area will expose you to more radio services, but, due to heavy traffic at those airports, limit the number of T & Gs you can get in an hour & often come with long taxi times & delays. Delta & untowered airports are a good choice for flight instruction. However, your instructor should eventually introduce you to flying into more controlled airspace.

Get started on your ground school material.
 
Nova said:
Very frustrating I don’t have a lot of options where I am.
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Just saw this. There are usually a lot of small, untowered airports around any Class D (C, B) airport. Many offer instruction. It would be unusual if an instructor with his own plane didn’t run an independent operation in your area. We don’t know where you are, so we can’t help in the search, but pull up the sectional for your area & start checking the smaller places. The interwebs should help. If the drive is a little long, consider two lessons a day with a couple of hours in between lessons. A nap & a coke does wonders between lessons.

If there are other instructors at the school where you are, chat them up or just listen to how they deal with their students. Yes, it is uncomfortable to fire an instructor but also stay at the same school. However, it’s done all the time & it sounds like your guy is on the verge of leaving anyway. You can always plead schedule conflicts or aircraft availability as the reason. Or, “I just wanted to get another instructor’s POV on my progress.” The breakup doesn’t have to be messy.

Also remember, if your instructor is in line to be picked up by the bigs, he will have no compunction about ditching you. In the end, it’s your money. You deserve good value.
 
Nova said:
That's another story. Mine doesn't seem to like questions. I don't think the instructor likes the job anymore. Seriously thinking of making a change.
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Find a new instructor. It is your money. I agree with looking for a new one before, but time to fire your old one.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I have found that to vary a lot geographically. Everything from assigning a squawk automatically to coordinating with TRACON on request to not even assigning a squawk on request.
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In a Class D associated with a TRSA, a pilot could expect the ground assigning a transponder code and departure frequency.

It is exceedingly uncommon for a Class D ground control to assign a transponder code and departure frequency into class E without specific pilot request for flight following.

The question from the OP was, “I'm not hearing the callout for approach or departure just to the Tower by my instructor who has done all the radio work thus far. What is specifically done with those two entities / frequencies that is not done with just calling to the tower?”

He is not hearing them because those radio calls are not being made and won’t be at 90% of the class D airports in the US unless a pilot is requesting VFR radar service.
 
Clip4 said:
Some class D airports will coordinate with departure control at the pilots request and you will be given a transponder code, most don’t.
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And a few Class D towers want you to call Approach when inbound, and Approach will sequence you and switch you to Tower when appropriate. White Plains NY KHPN my former home base is the only one that I know like this.

-Skip
 
Nova said:
That's another story. Mine doesn't seem to like questions. I don't think the instructor likes the job anymore. Seriously thinking of making a change.
Click to expand...

Are you attending an in person ground school or using home study? If you are using home study, even if you are using an “online ground school”, you are responsible to obtain a large amount of aeronautical knowledge on your own. This includes use of the applicable portions of the “Aeronautical Information Manual” and Radio communication procedures.

Your flight lessons should include a minimum of .5 ground time to brief the lesson, receive evaluation after the lesson, record keeping and answer your questions about that lesson. It’s not for ground school.
.
 
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Sometimes it’s the CFI, sometimes it’s the student, sometimes it’s just different learning styles, but better to switch sooner to minimize extra hours.

Switching instructors more towards solo, or too often, is a great way to go from getting your PPL in say the industry standard 60hrs and having it run near 100hrs.

Go find a time to talk to a couple, find one that seems a good match and have fun learning

Also be sure to ask the new CFI how much longer they are planning on staying
 
Clip4 said:
In a Class D associated with a TRSA, a pilot could expect the ground assigning a transponder code and departure frequency.

It is exceedingly uncommon for a Class D ground control to assign a transponder code and departure frequency into class E without specific pilot request for flight following.

The question from the OP was, “I'm not hearing the callout for approach or departure just to the Tower by my instructor who has done all the radio work thus far. What is specifically done with those two entities / frequencies that is not done with just calling to the tower?”

He is not hearing them because those radio calls are not being made and won’t be at 90% of the class D airports in the US unless a pilot is requesting VFR radar service.
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I teach pilots to expect differences so they realize that there are variations and avoid surprises. There are too many stories out there about student (and certificated pilots) getting completely thrown because a controller said or asked for something other than "expected."

Apparently we "approach" this issue differently.
 
Nova said:
That's another story. Mine doesn't seem to like questions. I don't think the instructor likes the job anymore. Seriously thinking of making a change.
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Greg Bockelman said:
Good idea. Soon as possible.
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To quote my old wrestling coach, "yesterday if not sooner!"

Also, if they don't like questions there's a good chance they don't know the answer and aren't just a curmudgeon.
 
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Yeah, generally despite it officially being "voluntary" TRSAs are a good sign they want VFR arrivals to call approach rather than just popping up on the tower frequency.
Back in the day RDG used to have a stealth approach requirement that you'd only know because there as a R in a circle next to the airport block. The FAA dropped that notation from the charts a while back.

Several class D's I've been based in have been pretty proactive about asking you if they want you flight following and will hand you off to approach.
 
Why don’t they just re-designate TRSAs as Class C?

There are so few of them, new pilots don’t really understand what they even are.
 
dans2992 said:
Why don’t they just re-designate TRSAs as Class C?

There are so few of them, new pilots don’t really understand what they even are.
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I was fortunate enough to have to have to deal KRFD during training. I'm sure controllers hate dealing with vfr guys blasting through as much as I dislike the thought of even being bold enough to overfly at 2500 Agl.
 
Shawn said:
If not on Flight Following flying VFR into a Delta you can contact TOWER directly be authorized to enter Delta Airspace. F
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But of course, you do not need to be "authorized to enter" Class D. You simply need to have established two-way radio communication.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
But of course, you do not need to be "authorized to enter" Class D. You simply need to have established two-way radio communication.
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Oh I’m feeling ornery today, so…

Technically, you do need to be authorized, however the authorization is implied by the two way communication, unless the communication says that you are not authorized. ;) In other words, if their part of the two way communication is to say “do not enter the class D”, you can’t enter.
 
Salty said:
Oh I’m feeling ornery today, so…

Technically, you do need to be authorized, however the authorization is implied by the two way communication, unless the communication says that you are not authorized. ;) In other words, if their part of the two way communication is to say “do not enter the class D”, you can’t enter.
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Aircraft calling, standby.
 
Salty said:
Oh I’m feeling ornery today, so…

Technically, you do need to be authorized, however the authorization is implied by the two way communication, unless the communication says that you are not authorized. ;) In other words, if their part of the two way communication is to say “do not enter the class D”, you can’t enter.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah... "technically." Wasn't that Cliff Clavin on Cheers?
 
darthanubis said:
Personally, I would’ve been motivated to find that answer on my own, like via Google or a host of other resources before I asked in this forum. Sharing with other pilots that you don’t have the initiative to ask your CFI or change your CFI doesn’t show the attitude of a pilot in command. Take charge and pilot your journey. This place is a great source to ask experience related stuff, but the basics other pilots expect you to be able to study on your own. If you bother to read this, I hope you take it in the spirit it was written in.

A good pilot is always learning!
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Sir I have been reading and watching just about anything i can get my hands on on this subject and many others. Including buying a radio and going an hour early to a lesson just so I can listen in on the radio. This seemed like very good place to ask a question about this. Anyway I like hearing a LOT of opinions on things it's often very telling when people don't even agree and in doing so you can understand not only the answer but the underlying motive to why they think this or that way and then make up your own mind as to which way works best for you... whilst in keeping with protocols of courser. Speaking of questions.. I don't really get how you can get VOR clearance before you even taxi? Seems like the situation in the air could have changed since you got the clearance by the time you actually take off... Like for instance if your get clearance to go straight out to at or below 3500 but that was 10 minutes ago not sure how that works... know want I mean? What if now you have traffic at 3500 straight out from your runaway that wasn't there 10 minutes ago? Obviously it gets managed but I thought you get taxi clearance... then the tower gives you departure clearance. In that order.
 
Clip4 said:
Are you attending an in person ground school or using home study? If you are using home study, even if you are using an “online ground school”, you are responsible to obtain a large amount of aeronautical knowledge on your own. This includes use of the applicable portions of the “Aeronautical Information Manual” and Radio communication procedures.

Your flight lessons should include a minimum of .5 ground time to brief the lesson, receive evaluation after the lesson, record keeping and answer your questions about that lesson. It’s not for ground school.
.
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I am doing sporty's ground school. i also have a good friend been a pilot for 40 years I have been getting with him with a lot of questions as well. And yea usually it's at least .5 hours after a flight we sit down and go over things. TIt's just we don't really communicate well. I'm going to schedule other lessons with somebody else. Sometimes people just don't jell together very well... the instructor likes to do all the talking. I like asking a lot of questions I learn better that way... so there's that conflict of styles that's all. I'll figure it out man... I'm very determined.. I love this ****. Always loved airplanes.. been building and flying RC planes since I was 10.
 
rhkennerly said:
Just saw this. There are usually a lot of small, untowered airports around any Class D (C, B) airport. Many offer instruction. It would be unusual if an instructor with his own plane didn’t run an independent operation in your area. We don’t know where you are, so we can’t help in the search, but pull up the sectional for your area & start checking the smaller places. The interwebs should help. If the drive is a little long, consider two lessons a day with a couple of hours in between lessons. A nap & a coke does wonders between lessons.

If there are other instructors at the school where you are, chat them up or just listen to how they deal with their students. Yes, it is uncomfortable to fire an instructor but also stay at the same school. However, it’s done all the time & it sounds like your guy is on the verge of leaving anyway. You can always plead schedule conflicts or aircraft availability as the reason. Or, “I just wanted to get another instructor’s POV on my progress.” The breakup doesn’t have to be messy.

Also remember, if your instructor is in line to be picked up by the bigs, he will have no compunction about ditching you. In the end, it’s your money. You deserve good value.
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Excellent advice. Part of it is in fact the potential awkward situation if I stay at the same airport and pick another instructor BUT ...I've decided that's asinine.. it is what it is... this is a very important decision here I owe it to myself to get it right if somebody get butt hurt a little that sucks but it is on my dime so to speak.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I teach pilots to expect differences so they realize that there are variations and avoid surprises. There are too many stories out there about student (and certificated pilots) getting completely thrown because a controller said or asked for something other than "expected."

Apparently we "approach" this issue differently.
Click to expand...
As instructors we are unable to teach every variation because we have not seen every variation and some of them are wrong.

As an example, one Class D controller where my students do their solo tower stuff tells students the option does not include a stop and go. It’s not correct per AIM 4-3-23, but it’s that Class D controller’s version of cleared for the option.

So in your world, I should train my students when cleared for the option at a controlled airport to inquire from the controller if that includes stop and go at that airport just in case.
 
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Clip4 said:
Are you attending an in person ground school or using home study? If you are using home study, even if you are using an “online ground school”, you are responsible to obtain a large amount of aeronautical knowledge on your own. This includes use of the applicable portions of the “Aeronautical Information Manual” and Radio communication procedures.

Your flight lessons should include a minimum of .5 ground time to brief the lesson, receive evaluation after the lesson, record keeping and answer your questions about that lesson. It’s not for ground school.
.
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re-"It’s not for ground school." yes I try to be respectful of that fact.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
But of course, you do not need to be "authorized to enter" Class D. You simply need to have established two-way radio communication.
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...and if you don't establish and maintain communications then you are most certainly not AUTHORIZED to enter Delta airspace. There are indeed conditions that need to be met to be authorized to enter but some just like to argue semantics I guess...I didn't say you need "Clearance" to enter...for the love of Gawd...don't ask for Clearance to enter Delta...
 
Clip4 said:
As instructors we are unable to teach every variation because we have not seen every variation and some of them are wrong.

As an example, one Class D controller where my students do their solo tower stuff tells students the option does not include a stop and go. It’s not correct per AIM 4-3-23, but it’s that Class D controller’s version of cleared for the option.

So in your world, I should train my students when cleared for the option at a controlled airport to inquire from the controller if that includes stop and go at that airport just in case.
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“…controllers version of…”. Yup. Question. How many Controllers does it take to change a light bulb. 10. One to screw it in and 9 to tell him how he should have done it differently.
 
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